Have the Liberals been a bit fascist?

[Ratts of Tobruk]

No, this is not about Abbott giving a backhanded compliment to our enemies in WW2. Rather, a couple of threads were merged into the Abbott Mega-Thread that were about the anti-democratic elements of the current LNP government. I thought it was fascinating that we could even talk about it straight-faced in the 21st Century Australia, so I wanted to pick up the conversation again here. They were about things like:

• jail sentences for journalists who report on "special operations" that are classified that by the govt
  
• jail sentences for people revealing aspects of Asylum Seeker processing and life
  
• the quasi-militarised Border Force who recently overreached with their powers (at least in PR form)
  
• Royal Commissions into their political opposition, including three ALP leaders, using Liberal-linked judges
• the desire to remove citizenship, even from non-dual-nationals, with the decision made by the Immigration MP
• sustained harassment of the media (ABC) alongside cuts to their funding and claims they aren't on Australia's side
• the enthusiastic refusal to give information on Asylum Seekers, because it would be a "shipping news for people smugglers" (even thought people smugglers would still know what had happened since they're in contact with their own boats). They also removed information from reports made by third parties. All while having 99 people paid in the media units associated with AS and paying outsourced media research groups to trawl social media...
• reports of spying on a Greens senator who visited a detention centre
  
• emphasis on intelligence, military and national security (including funding increases despite the "debt and deficit disaster") and exaggeration over Da'esh's capabilities
  
• metadata retention laws (which did get bipartisan support after provisons for the public interest and professional journalists were inserted)
• Brandis removing funds from independent funding bodies in order to give that same money out at his own discretion (I think that's happened to other parts of govt funding too, so if there's anything I've missed I will aim to update this OP)
• encouraging public servants to dob on each other after amping up the rules banning PS employees from appearing in media, including social media, and being “critical or highly critical of the Department, the Minister or the Prime Minister’’. Community legal centres also had legislative protection removed that allowed them to engage in "public debate or criticism of the Commonwealth, its agencies, employees, servants or agents.”
  
• George Christensen speaks at an anti-Islam rally and Cory Bernadi thinks Halal certification funds terrorism. The govt does an abrupt about-turn on refugees from Syria as soon as they discuss the refugees will be Christian, rather than Muslim. Discriminating against a minority to appeal to 'base' human emotions is one of the most dangerous aspects of fascism.

Originally, Northalives created a thread when Barnaby Joyce pulled out of Q&A to debate whether it was good for democracy that Abbott had banned his cabinet from it, but the following article dealt with the general issue and was the starting point for Dry Rot's thread. Dry Rot at the time said "Worth a read how bad things have become under this govt"

Minister George Brandis' unilateral control of the arts, Minister Malcolm Turnbull's repeated interventions in "independent" broadcasters, Minister Tony Abbott's ABC "heads should roll", Minister Peter Dutton's personal stranglehold on citizenship, data retention by and for ASIO: suddenly state control and ministerial discretion are shaping our lives in a way that, even a decade ago, was unthinkable.

Governance principles like arm's length, separation of powers, checks and balances seem entirely to have escaped these guys. This is all the more astonishing in allowing socialist-type control to guise as liberalism; big, ultra-interventionist government pretending laissez-faire....Just weeks ago, you recall, this same Minister engineered the sacking of SBS journalist Scott McIntyre for his Anzac-critical tweets. Suddenly, there are political things you can't say in public; views you mustn't express. Suddenly, unless Australian discourse complies with the Minister's acceptability spectrum, heads will roll. Suddenly, our subversions are things whispered in back rooms.
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/qa-episode-another-outburst-of-government-creep-20150701-gi28rx.html

 

[NSWCROW]

Yep.


Just a tad.

 

[Pie eyed]

Ja!

 

[Sydney Bloods]

not currently on a proxy so we heartly disagree, we love the liberals and our dear leader.

 

[yibbida]

Here is a checklist to properly assess the proposition presented in the OP:

http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm

Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

4. Supremacy of the Military

5. Rampant Sexism

6. Controlled Mass Media

7. Obsession with National Security

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

9. Corporate Power is Protected

10. Labor Power is Suppressed

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

14. Fraudulent Elections

 

[little graham]

I was looking for somewhere to post this, this'll do.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

this is fun:

1: self proscribed "pragmatic nationalist", team australia, Yes

2: has attacked the human rights commission for its findings against his government. Yes

3: ..............

4: well abbott has ordered dozens of planes that don't work so. No

5: there was that pearler that a woman shouldn't have the absolute right to with hold sex. Yes

6: as previously mentioned by RoT. that's an empathetic Yes

7: http://www.theage.com.au/comment/to...ional-security-dangerous-20150705-gi5rjo.html Yes!

8: ok this was a setup, lets just lol stem cell research, training priests, marriage. Yes.

9: well he hasn't done the protecting it was already in place. No

10: http://www.afr.com/news/policy/indu...r-wages-will-boost-jobs-abbott-20140905-jeqst Yes.

11: disdain? No he just doesn't see their importance. No

12: Not really. No

13: Yes, Yes, Yes.

14: you mean like having the IPA put in charge of the organisation tony hates? yes.

15: no

hasn't swept the field but 9 out of 15 aint bad.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

this is fun:

1: self proscribed "pragmatic nationalist", team australia, Yes

2: has attacked the human rights commission for its findings against his government. Yes

3: ..............

4: well abbott has ordered dozens of planes that don't work so. No

5: there was that pearler that a woman shouldn't have the absolute right to with hold sex. Yes

6: as previously mentioned by RoT. that's an empathetic Yes

7: http://www.theage.com.au/comment/to...ional-security-dangerous-20150705-gi5rjo.html Yes!

8: ok this was a setup, lets just lol stem cell research, training priests, marriage. Yes.

9: well he hasn't done the protecting it was already in place. No

10: http://www.afr.com/news/policy/indu...r-wages-will-boost-jobs-abbott-20140905-jeqst Yes.

11: disdain? No he just doesn't see their importance. No

12: Not really. No

13: Yes, Yes, Yes.

14: you mean like having the IPA put in charge of the organisation tony hates? yes.

15: no

hasn't swept the field but 9 out of 15 aint bad.

I wasn't sure about the rampant sexism bit. I guess police states or military coups tend to be pretty masculine, but not sure why that's on the list?

I think disdain for the arts is there to be seen in the longterm anti-intellectualism. Plus they didn't reform 18C for that renowned Opera critic, Andrew Bolt.

As for crime and punishment, you've clearly forgotten the Ice hot-line. What was the number? 001?

 

[Sydney Bloods]

I wasn't sure about the rampant sexism bit. I guess police states or military coups tend to be pretty masculine, but not sure why that's on the list?

I think disdain for the arts is there to be seen in the longterm anti-intellectualism. Plus they didn't reform 18C for that renowned Opera critic, Andrew Bolt.

As for crime and punishment, you've clearly forgotten the Ice hot-line. What was the number? 001?

abbotts said plenty of sexist s**t about women over the years, which is why making himself minister for women is such a piss take.

if it said anti intellectual i would have backed it, his anti science stance's over the years proves that.

ice hotline is a joke, its literally just crime stoppers with a new name. Just abbott being abbott.

 

[Dry Rot]

No, this is not about Abbott giving a backhanded compliment to our enemies in WW2. Rather, a couple of threads were merged into the Abbott Mega-Thread that were about the anti-democratic elements of the current LNP government. I thought it was fascinating that we could even talk about it straight-faced in the 21st Century Australia, so I wanted to pick up the conversation again here. They were about things like:

• jail sentences for journalists who report on "special operations" that are classified that by the govt
  
• jail sentences for people revealing aspects of Asylum Seeker processing and life
  
• the quasi-militarised Border Force who recently overreached with their powers (at least in PR form)
  
• Royal Commissions into their political opposition, including three ALP leaders, using Liberal-linked judges
• the desire to remove citizenship, even from non-dual-nationals, with the decision made by the Immigration MP
• sustained harassment of the media (ABC) alongside cuts to their funding and claims they aren't on Australia's side
• the enthusiastic refusal to give information on Asylum Seekers, because it would be a "shipping news for people smugglers" (even thought people smugglers would still know what had happened since they're in contact with their own boats)
  
• reports of spying on a Greens senator who visited a detention centre
  
• emphasis on intelligence, military and national security (including funding increases despite the "debt and deficit disaster") and exaggeration over Da'esh's capabilities
  
• metadata retention laws (which did get bipartisan support after provisons for the public interest and professional journalists were inserted)
• Brandis removing funds from independent funding bodies in order to give that same money out at his own discretion (I think that's happened to other parts of govt funding too, so if there's anything I've missed I will aim to update this OP)

Originally, Northalives created a thread when Barnaby Joyce pulled out of Q&A to debate whether it was good for democracy that Abbott had banned his cabinet from it, but the following article dealt with the general issue and was the starting point for Dry Rot's thread. Dry Rot at the time said "Worth a read how bad things have become under this govt"

Have no great disagreement with the OP, but the thread title is wrong.

Should read:

Have the Liberals and their wedged pissweak opponents the ALP been a bit fascist?

A lot of those measures were either supported or not opposed by the snivelling, pissweak ALP Opposition.

A pox on both their fascist houses.

 

[Little Big John]

"This is very much the way in which western nations are going."

George Brandis, July 2014.

Ostensibly regarding data-retention laws, but I think that goes to the heart of it.

 

[Dry Rot]

"This is very much the way in which western nations are going."

George Brandis, July 2014.

Ostensibly regarding data-retention laws, but I think that goes to the heart of it.

And which parties passed that law in the Senate?

 

[smokingjacket]

Two thoughts. Is it a reaction to the more totalitarian impulses of modern identity politics? When the conservatives have the levers of power they're now looking to ring fence their ideology with state power because they've lost the war on true 'liberal' free speech?

Secondly is it a reaction to an olde tyme style government losing control of the message? Flapping about trying to instill fear through ever more ridiculous means to show that they're in control despite the swirl of modernity, looming post-capitalism and twitter frenzies?

 

[Little Big John]

And which parties passed that law in the Senate?

I believe it was the coalition of the willing, was it not?

Seriously DR, have you ever seen me engage in the party cheerleading that saturates these boards?

 

[Little Big John]

Two thoughts. Is it a reaction to the more totalitarian impulses of modern identity politics? When the conservatives have the levers of power they're now looking to ring fence their ideology with state power because they've lost the war on true 'liberal' free speech?

Secondly is it a reaction to an olde tyme style government losing control of the message? Flapping about trying to instill fear through ever more ridiculous means to show that they're in control despite the swirl of modernity, looming post-capitalism and twitter frenzies?

IMO, half the latter, half trying to compete with China.

 

[Richard Pryor]

Also Dutton equating media criticism with a jihad to topple the government.

 

[little graham]

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

I'm pretty sure Scott Morrison has specifically said they will allow Syrian refugees in. 4000-5000 of them.

Have no great disagreement with the OP, but the thread title is wrong.

Should read:

Have the Liberals and their wedged pissweak opponents the ALP been a bit fascist?

A lot of those measures were either supported or not opposed by the snivelling, pissweak ALP Opposition.

A pox on both their fascist houses.

Given your thread was called “Govt now gaoling dissenters” and Northalives’ thread was called “Abbott winning the race to become Australia’s first dictator”, I don't know why you think I should change my relatively gentle title?

But if you genuinely think that, you will see on the list there are things the Libs wanted to do but weren't allowed to and things that Labor clearly hasn't supported (most obviously Royal Commissions into their political opposition - Labor even appointed people like Brendan Nelson to diplomatic posts from memory). I think Labor and/or crossbenchers supported maybe 4 items on that list? Am I wrong?

Two thoughts. Is it a reaction to the more totalitarian impulses of modern identity politics? When the conservatives have the levers of power they're now looking to ring fence their ideology with state power because they've lost the war on true 'liberal' free speech?

Secondly is it a reaction to an olde tyme style government losing control of the message? Flapping about trying to instill fear through ever more ridiculous means to show that they're in control despite the swirl of modernity, looming post-capitalism and twitter frenzies?

Abbott is defined by being in opposition to ‘the left’ or to Labor. He does stuff to try and annoy them in. He's all about media stories. That's all he is left with too, seeing as the things he wanted to do policy-wise where overwhelmingly rejected by the Australian public throughout his govt. But he probably knew that pre-election seeing as he didn't tell us his plans.

 

[little graham]

 

[The Speaker]

itt fascism and totalitarianism are conflated

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

itt fascism and totalitarianism are conflated

"Totalitarianism" has been used once by smokingjacket, and only in reference to an impulse caused by the left-right divide identity politics.

So there's no need for you to use 'in this thread', and there's no apparent conflation. However, given I find your political views objectionable (from memory), I'm happy for you to bow out of the thread due to this horrendous problem you've highlighted. See ya.

 

[The Speaker]

"Totalitarianism" has been used once by smokingjacket, and only in reference to an impulse caused by the left-right divide identity politics.

So there's no need for you to use 'in this thread', and there's no apparent conflation. However, given I find your political views objectionable (from memory), I'm happy for you to bow out of the thread due to this horrendous problem you've highlighted. See ya.

From memory you have no idea of my political persuasion.

I am pointing out that you are using the word 'fascist' to describe what is actually only totalitarian. Fascism is a very specific ideology that has only ever really existed in two countries historically (Italy, its birthplace, and Germany).

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

I disagree. My dictionary says Totalitarianism is about devotion to a dictator and subservience to the state. Given the lack of love for Abbott from the get-go that isn't what we're dealing with.

I believe the descriptions in the thread make clear that we are referring to fascism, that has a nationalistic fervour at its centre, appeals to base prejudices to convince people (rather than rationality), is anti-democratic, and elevates police/military as a representation of that nationalistic power.

Franco was considered Fascist so I'm not sure how solid your info is on all this for you to tell us what we should or should not say.

As for your politics, I'm pretty sure you have said a couple of things over the last fortnight or so that I've found objectionable.

 

[smokingjacket]

Abbott is defined by being in opposition to ‘the left’ or to Labor. He does stuff to try and annoy them in. He's all about media stories. That's all he is left with too, seeing as the things he wanted to do policy-wise where overwhelmingly rejected by the Australian public throughout his govt. But he probably knew that pre-election seeing as he didn't tell us his plans.

I have a very poor opinion of the Prime Minister and this government and I'd agree that a certain part of him is still caught up in student politics. However I don't buy that the actions of this government are just down to Abbott trying to troll the left.

There's something more to it, but it needs more thought. A crisis of conservativism within the Liberal Party ranks and a government unsure of how to deal with modernity after the neoliberal solution was extinguished. It's been quite a jump in 12 months.

"Hey, you don't like neoliberal cuts to services and welfare? How about some crypto-fascism instead?"

 

[Maggie5]

itt fascism and totalitarianism are conflated

Nope, wrong.
http://www.britannica.com/topic/totalitarianism