Here comes Workchoices III the elimination of penatly rates

[CbayT]

Most small businesses, especially those in retail and hospitality, pay a large proportion of their workers cash in hand. They pay a bit extra per hour (maybe a dollar or two) and don't have to worry about super, sick leave, annual leave, workers comp (even though their staff are still entitled, they think they're not or are too scared to claim), payroll tax, unfair dismissal claims etc etc

Most workers don't really have a say in the matter, it's either accept the cash in hand job or keep looking for work in an industry where cash in hand work is endemic.

The ATO now has very complex models for different businesses and know by your inputs what you should be making and paying wages. Yes if your running a bar you can go to Dan Murphys, the market etc and pay cash but more and more will get caught

 

[Gough]

Gough

Good zinger - we all know KFB Packer knew how to get around his obligations. But I can't resist

All meant in good fun

There's an irony, we giggle behind our hands as the super rich get away with paying f*** all tax, while wanting to take a stick to penalty rates. It seems all askew to me.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

The ATO now has very complex models for different businesses and know by your inputs what you should be making and paying wages. Yes if your running a bar you can go to Dan Murphys, the market etc and pay cash but more and more will get caught

Well their models dont work.

 

[Maggie5]

The ATO now has very complex models for different businesses and know by your inputs what you should be making and paying wages. Yes if your running a bar you can go to Dan Murphys, the market etc and pay cash but more and more will get caught

I thought the GST was supposed to stop the cash economy. That worked out well, LOL

 

[crackerjack4X4]

There's an irony, we giggle behind our hands as the super rich get away with paying f*** all tax, while wanting to take a stick to penalty rates. It seems all askew to me.

Can I ask, where do you work Gough?

 

[crackerjack4X4]

 

[Gough]

Can I ask, where do you work Gough?

Bookseller/slacker.

 

[medusala]

I don't get why they should go; if a buisiness can't afford to operate with penalty rates then don't open.

What logic. Lets make the min wage $100 an hour then.

This is just an indirect subsidy for businesses that aren't sustainable, something I thought this government didn't do. If you can't pay your staff you shouldn't be in business, what happened to the invisible hand?

I don't follow, where is the subsidy? How can there be an invisible hand when the govt is fixing the price of labour via penalty rates?

There's an irony, we giggle behind our hands as the super rich get away with paying f*** all tax, while wanting to take a stick to penalty rates. It seems all askew to me.

f all? Do you know what % of all income tax the top 10% pay? It is massively disproportionate.

 

[madmug]

What logic. Lets make the min wage $100 an hour then.



I don't follow, where is the subsidy? How can there be an invisible hand when the govt is fixing the price of labour via penalty rates?



f all? Do you know what % of all income tax the top 10% pay? It is massively disproportionate.

Working in a coffee shop, $100/hour?. Argument by exaggeration, just makes your point look weak.

The top 10% dont pay the full marginal tax rate. They pay much less as a proportion of their wage than say, someone working in a coffee shop.

 

[medusala]

Working in a coffee shop, $100/hour?. Argument by exaggeration, just makes your point look weak.

Logic holds. It is an absurd argument to say if you cant afford to pay penalty rates you shouldn't be in business

The top 10% dont pay the full marginal tax rate. They pay much less as a proportion of their wage than say, someone working in a coffee shop.

?????? How does someone on $150k pay a smaller % of income tax than someone who works in a coffee shop?

What an utter trainwreck of a thread

#lifeowesmealiving

 

[ralphmalph]

Some handy links:

http://www.pc.gov.au/inquiries/current/workplace-relations/draft#contents

See chapter 14

Then you might want to look at the wide range of submissions:

http://www.pc.gov.au/inquiries/current/workplace-relations/submissions#post-draft

This one is focused on restaurants:

https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/sites/awardsmodernfouryr/AM2014305-UV-Quiggin-040915.pdf

You should all be able to find someone to support your preconceived ideas. The draft report and submissions might help to add some substance to all sides of the argument.

 

[katana]

The ATO is glad to hear this. I wouldn't be posting this info if I was you!

highly doubt the ato is glad about paying me 200+ a week plus student loans while i give them zero.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

highly doubt the ato is glad about paying me 200+ a week plus student loans while i give them zero.

They will be absolutely ecstatic when they finally catch you and nail your arse to the wall, the tax you should have paid them will be the least of your worries then.

 

[Grin]

Simple economics. A business has to be more productive.

The main reason why the likes of Toyota & Holden have pulled up shop here is there are cheaper labour markets who are also more productive.

Japan & Australia are the two most expensive labour markets in the world in terms of manufacturing. The difference is Japan has a far greater output and productivity, that is why they don't lose industry.

Rubbish.
The reason countries like Germany manufacture vehicles is because government subsidies.
Australia's subsidies were actually relatively lower than most vehicle manufacturing countries.
The destruction of our manufacturing base by an economically incompetent and very short sighted Abbott Government will have long term ramifications.
Of course they also cut spending on education etc.

The way to improve wages and productivity is through skill, technology, education and training etc.
Just look at any high wage, low unemployment country.

We should be looking to compete with countries like Germany rather than Bangladesh.
The liberal party tells anyone who listens that by slashing wages, consumption will grow and jobs will magically appear.
Common sense tells us otherwise.

 

[katana]

They will be absolutely ecstatic when they finally catch you and nail your arse to the wall, the tax you should have paid them will be the least of your worries then.

lol

 

[Grin]

What an utter trainwreck of a thread

Meds demonstrates very poor understanding of basic economics, loses argument, reverts to insults: SRP equilibrium is restored.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

f all? Do you know what % of all income tax the top 10% pay? It is massively disproportionate.

Disproportionate to their income?

Is this only personal income tax? What about corporate taxes?

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Rubbish.
The reason countries like Germany manufacture vehicles is because government subsidies.
Australia's subsidies were actually relatively lower than most vehicle manufacturing countries.
The destruction of our manufacturing base by an economically incompetent and very short sighted Abbott Government will have long term ramifications.
Of course they also cut spending on education etc.

The way to improve wages and productivity is through skill, technology, education and training etc.
Just look at any high wage, low unemployment country.

We should be looking to compete with countries like Germany rather than Bangladesh.
The liberal party tells anyone who listens that by slashing wages, consumption will grow and jobs will magically appear.
Common sense tells us otherwise.

Not only that, they slash R&D and refuse to invest in new technologies for ideological/political reasons.

Good economic managers my arse, what a ridiculous myth.

 

[madmug]

The ideology of the penalty rate issue on sundays only seemed to apply to baristas, & perhaps bar staff. Apparently nurses, fireys & police were going to be exempt.

Whats with this picking on the makers of caffeine & alcohol based beverages? What have they ever done to the LNP?

 

[Grin]

Whats with this picking on the makers of caffeine & alcohol based beverages? What have they ever done to the LNP?

I don't think it's anything personal.
Everyone knows that slashing the wages of those who serve beverages is a cure all for the economy.
The argument goes like this:

1/ Slash penalty rates for those who sere beverages.
+
2/ ??????
=
Productive economy
Unemployment solved

 

[CbayT]

Rubbish.
The reason countries like Germany manufacture vehicles is because government subsidies.
Australia's subsidies were actually relatively lower than most vehicle manufacturing countries.
The destruction of our manufacturing base by an economically incompetent and very short sighted Abbott Government will have long term ramifications.
Of course they also cut spending on education etc.

The way to improve wages and productivity is through skill, technology, education and training etc.
Just look at any high wage, low unemployment country.

We should be looking to compete with countries like Germany rather than Bangladesh.
The liberal party tells anyone who listens that by slashing wages, consumption will grow and jobs will magically appear.
Common sense tells us otherwise.

The cost of a factory worker in uk or Germany is considerably less than what ford or holden paid

 

[CbayT]

The ideology of the penalty rate issue on sundays only seemed to apply to baristas, & perhaps bar staff. Apparently nurses, fireys & police were going to be exempt.

Whats with this picking on the makers of caffeine & alcohol based beverages? What have they ever done to the LNP?

As I explained before it will create more employment, where as a govt will mot employ more cops etc

 

[Grin]

The cost of a factory worker in uk or Germany is considerably less than what ford or holden paid

That's actually true. And here's why:

The elephant in the room of any discussion about manufacturing, and specifically how Australia might be more like Germany, is the matter of the unions.

In Germany, unions are deeply embedded in the governance of companies, and involved in the choice of CEO, as well as the day-to-day running of their factories.

The system has a name: ‘Mitbestimmung’, which translates literally as ‘together decide’, and is usually referred to as codetermination. It’s a 40-year-old law that requires trade union representatives to account for almost half the members of corporate boards.

But the system goes even deeper than that. Several factories I’ve visited this week all have full time elected union organisers paid by the company who do nothing but union work. There’s also a big workers council that must approve all the major decisions made by the factory manager

In Australia, such a setup would be regarded with horror. In Germany, the unions are an integral part of the business world.
http://www.businessspectator.com.au...at-australian-manufacturers-can-learn-germany

 

[madmug]

As I explained before it will create more employment, where as a govt will mot employ more cops etc

I'm not sure its a lay down misere that it will add to employment. I seem to have no problem getting a coffee on sunday if I want one, nor a beer for that matter.

 

[The Punter]

So the fact that unions are embedded into the organisation lowers costs? Excuse my ignorance, but its not explained in the post how this lowers costs.