Football Analysis

[HomerJayS]

You can't really compare NFL and AFL as NFL starts from a static position with each team behind the ball. Although there is some variation in the restart positions it's far more rigid compared to AFL where players are moving prior to game restarts and positioning can be totally random including players in front of the ball/restart position.

Not to mention the NFL playing area is less than a quarter of AFL and they seldom play on/make a 2nd pass/run, whereas AFL is about continuous play, with much less structured player positions.

BTW: Are we the only game where you are penalised for being in possession of the ball? All others, including NFL the goal is to keep possession, and you a rewarded for it.

 

[Gralin]

Its catch22, show widescreen shots of the game and the viewers will whinge they can't see who is winning the ball or what is going on at the 'coal face', only panning out when the ball is in movement and you get the complaint you just made.

Where they let themselves down badly is in replaying the same footage we just watched the play unfold in, this is where the proper analysis should be shown, different panned out footage that lead up to the goal etc, but that would mean having a decent editor (you know not some bias scab editor who shows Hodge protecting himself from the goal post five million times over just because some idiot port player stuck his head in the road) and half as many breaks after a goal so it can be shown, so the chances are zero.

The best place for this to happen in my view would be to have a real footy show that actually talked about footy, not entertainment crap and/or personal and/or afl commission agendas.

Extreme close up or extreme wide shot is not all there is.
I agree the people running the broadcast at channel 7 are beyond terrible.
Foxtel when I get to watch it puts on a much more polished show.
We have all this technology and channel 7 still broadcast footy like its 1985 but with worse camera work.
There is no picture in picture, alternate angles, actual presentation or useful overlays 99% of the time.
If they provided decent coverage and commentary and educated their viewers they could produce a much better product than the boys club new idea magazine shows that we get at the moment

 

[IdiotBox]

I suspect some sports Journos can't even spell analysis.

Well, maybe they can, but they only ever get to the 4th letter and just get all embarrassed and giggly and run away.

 

[Hawk Dork]

I would be happy with a few more replays from a birds eye camera.
Showing center square positioning and running, blocking patterns and similar forward/back aerial views showing guys making space, running to space, before the ball is delivered.
Aerial views of walls and floods too.

 

[StalkingHawk]

Before you get too hot on slagging Yanks like me and the innovations of my countrymen, there is some merit in the question.

I'm not so interested in game-time analysis as the announcing is about as entertaining and informative as it can get given the speed of the game. I'm more interested in offensive and defensive strategy and gameplay breakdowns. For example - the glorious Hawks are losing weight this year to run more. Sure, easy. Anyone can see that. What will be the effect on game play? Less swinging it outside and up the line? More breakaway bursts of speed up the middle alla-Smith?

The Hawks have a defensive line kicking strategy. How is it affected by opponent? For example, if Gibson sees a certain defensive set by the opponent then he swings it outside, but Mitchell handballs straight into the middle to Burgoyne that kicks up to the flat. How did they know that play was on instead of Mitchell kicking up the wing? Mitch played on too fast to look around and decide. There were other earlier indicators that set the play in motion. And all the Hawks seemed to know what they were.

Basically, as a 20 year observer and fan, I can see what is happening. But I can't see why. I know that players kick to certain positions based on the statistical chance of a score, and I suspect they have two or three plays that modify decisions based on opponent set up and positioning. But I don't really know what they are.

You want to know an NFL pro-set? A Nickle-D? I know what they are, when they are used and can recognise plays designed to challenge them.

But the AFL doesn't have this level of strategic knowledge in the public domain. The game is crying out for a blog where someone explains this all so we can recognise and become our own couch coach.

Anyways, thanks for playing. Prizes are in the mail.

Exactly! A blog sounds like a good start

 

[StalkingHawk]

You can't really compare NFL and AFL as NFL starts from a static position with each team behind the ball. Although there is some variation in the restart positions it's far more rigid compared to AFL where players are moving prior to game restarts and positioning can be totally random including players in front of the ball/restart position.

Not to mention the NFL playing area is less than a quarter of AFL and they seldom play on/make a 2nd pass/run, whereas AFL is about continuous play, with much less structured player positions.

BTW: Are we the only game where you are penalised for being in possession of the ball? All others, including NFL the goal is to keep possession, and you a rewarded for it.

Clubs do this analysis, so the layout etc of the field isn't an issue

 

[Flag08]

[QUOTE="HomerJayS, post: 42926919, member: 129777".

BTW: Are we the only game where you are penalised for being in possession of the ball?[/QUOTE]
Off the top of my head I'd also include rugby union and women's weightlifting in this category.

 

[Davo23]

[QUOTE="HomerJayS, post: 42926919, member: 129777".

BTW: Are we the only game where you are penalised for being in possession of the ball?
Off the top of my head I'd also include rugby union and women's weightlifting in this category.

Now, now, play nice!

 

[Clarkos_Soldier]

This thread is trivialising the technicality involved in the AFL and sports generally. There is analysis everywhere to the extent that people have the skill and ability to do so but obviously it's very difficult to do given even the AFL coaches can't do it well. If they could then the Hawks wouldn't be dominating in the last four years.

Comparing the NFL to the AFL in terms of analysis is apples and oranges. The NFL has stoppage after stoppage and you can dissect each play as the teams set-up for specific plays. The AFL is a dynamic game in which players on field can determine a great deal of what is about to unfold and use their intuition and reading of the game to impact play. Sometimes the play can go on continuously for 8-10 minutes. And if you don't count ball ups then the game only really stops during the breaks.

The AFL is a much harder game to predict and dissect and that makes analysis much more difficult.

 

[Agent Smith]

I'd just like something a little more than Gee the Swans were good on the weekend weren't the Gerard or Slobbo's mfmffmf hird bleargh souvlaki

Wouldn't we all...

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Biggest issue is all the journos are mates, too bust patting eachother on the back

I love watching espn, because its almost like politics
Lots of bickering, people with opposing views presenting an opinion

The afl set up means that sheep don't need to think
Look at any board on this site

It is just what the media feed the mindless
Any different view and youre bullied to no end

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Would MUCH prefer the Saturday night lead in on 7 be an hour long discussion of footy issues and technical analysis rather than Mick 'Tony Martin Made Me Look Funnny For 15 Years' Molloy and the utter halfwit that is Darcy and 1/64th wit that is Richo. Then you have the appalling commentary of BT - it's a painful, painful night of footy. The Friday team, despite Bruce's carry on, is like walking into a shower after a muggy day compared to the tripe we get on Saturday.

So, Channel 7, how about instead of a raft of 40-50 year old blokes who think they are funny - keep Ling and turf the rest of the Saturday crew and employ a panel of analysts who can spend time dissecting the games already played to that point and then do an in depth analysis of both of that day's teams. Show key players, things they have been doing well, discuss how you think the opposition coach will attempt to nullify them etc. Even the naffest attempt at this would be 1,000 times better than Mick Molloy telling his 15th joke that earns a pity laugh that a 3 year old would see through.

 

[Hawthorn United]

This thread is trivialising the technicality involved in the AFL and sports generally. There is analysis everywhere to the extent that people have the skill and ability to do so but obviously it's very difficult to do given even the AFL coaches can't do it well. If they could then the Hawks wouldn't be dominating in the last four years.

Comparing the NFL to the AFL in terms of analysis is apples and oranges. The NFL has stoppage after stoppage and you can dissect each play as the teams set-up for specific plays. The AFL is a dynamic game in which players on field can determine a great deal of what is about to unfold and use their intuition and reading of the game to impact play. Sometimes the play can go on continuously for 8-10 minutes. And if you don't count ball ups then the game only really stops during the breaks.

The AFL is a much harder game to predict and dissect and that makes analysis much more difficult.

Don't fully agree there.

Soccer is one free flowing sport that's analysed pretty well. Like I said earlier, you can do the analysis/punditry at halftime or at the end of the game.

Also your point on Hawthorn dominating, that would've required Clarkson and his assistants being pretty good analysts to be able to create a game plan to conquer Geelong (2008) during our rise, and also post Buddy era.

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[StalkingHawk]

This thread is trivialising the technicality involved in the AFL and sports generally. There is analysis everywhere to the extent that people have the skill and ability to do so but obviously it's very difficult to do given even the AFL coaches can't do it well. If they could then the Hawks wouldn't be dominating in the last four years.

Comparing the NFL to the AFL in terms of analysis is apples and oranges. The NFL has stoppage after stoppage and you can dissect each play as the teams set-up for specific plays. The AFL is a dynamic game in which players on field can determine a great deal of what is about to unfold and use their intuition and reading of the game to impact play. Sometimes the play can go on continuously for 8-10 minutes. And if you don't count ball ups then the game only really stops during the breaks.

The AFL is a much harder game to predict and dissect and that makes analysis much more difficult.

Mate I'm not after play by play analysis.

I'd like them at quarter time/half/etc to be able to say something like this:

"Freo started off dominating the centre clearances, but hawthorn got on top late in that quarter

Sandi hit the ball 5 times short and to the right, and every time Barlow blocked, Fyfe got the clearance. The Hawks switched on tho, and see here, Lewis stands the other side of Barlow, forces the ball out to Mitchell etc etc. Sandi went back to the drawing board, and started mixing it up with some longer taps forward, but Hawthorns pressing half backs were able to disrupt the play, switch to hill on wing and get the ball forward."

Surely spider cam would give you every ball-up from above. Overlay them, spend five minutes thinking about what's happening, and whallah! Riveting analysis!

All of a sudden, couch coaches like myself are watching how and why players push off in which directions at stoppages.

Now, teams don't like to be predictable, but there's only so many patterns you can present to a centre bounce

 

[Brishawk]

Mate I'm not after play by play analysis.

I'd like them at quarter time/half/etc to be able to say something like this:

"Freo started off dominating the centre clearances, but hawthorn got on top late in that quarter

Sandi hit the ball 5 times short and to the right, and every time Barlow blocked, Fyfe got the clearance. The Hawks switched on tho, and see here, Lewis stands the other side of Barlow, forces the ball out to Mitchell etc etc. Sandi went back to the drawing board, and started mixing it up with some longer taps forward, but Hawthorns pressing half backs were able to disrupt the play, switch to hill on wing and get the ball forward."

Surely spider cam would give you every ball-up from above. Overlay them, spend five minutes thinking about what's happening, and whallah! Riveting analysis!

All of a sudden, couch coaches like myself are watching how and why players push off in which directions at stoppages.

Now, teams don't like to be predictable, but there's only so many patterns you can present to a centre bounce

While Champion data do all the stats for media and the clubs we will never see that quality of stats in the broadcast. The absence of competition means there is no need to improve and the distribution of the stats and interpretations is controlled by commercial agreements. Champion data do not sell the data which prevents anyone else producing more valuable or interesting insights.

Also AFL stats are expensive as it is very labour intensive. Its probable that the stats required in your examples are just not kept by Champion data so it won't make it to the broadcast. Or they may capture them in a total and not as a time series so momentum changes can't be identified in a systematic way.

 

[Hawthorn United]

While Champion data do all the stats for media and the clubs we will never see that quality of stats in the broadcast. The absence of competition means there is no need to improve and the distribution of the stats and interpretations is controlled by commercial agreements. Champion data do not sell the data which prevents anyone else producing more valuable or interesting insights.

Also AFL stats are expensive as it is very labour intensive. Its probable that the stats required in your examples are just not kept by Champion data so it won't make it to the broadcast. Or they may capture them in a total and not as a time series so momentum changes can't be identified in a systematic way.

Don't always require stats if you can just produce footage.

Would like to see detailed analysis on how Hawthorn beat West Coast on Grand Final day and what they learnt from the loss in Perth 3 weeks before instead of the one-liner that we just we didn't turn up.

 

[Brishawk]

Don't always require stats if you can just produce footage.

Would like to see detailed analysis on how Hawthorn beat West Coast on Grand Final day and what they learnt from the loss in Perth 3 weeks before instead of the one-liner that we just we didn't turn up.

But the media are not doing the analysis. Champion data tells them everything you see on the screen. The media would have to go out an hire someone to chop up video who can also hand to someone like David King a ready made story about who the last quarter went down. Its too easy for them to get champion data to find something interesting and then pair them with a guy who creates highlights that reflect the stats.

 

[Jiggystoon]

Exactly, which is why EVERYONE would want to know. Surely in footy media there's a spot for someone like you, to analyse games. We'd ALL appreciate it.

Haha yeah on channel seven.... Just make sure you remember to remind everyone what a good bloke each player is as you conduct your analysis


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[SJ]

Biggest issue is all the journos are mates, too bust patting eachother on the back

I love watching espn, because its almost like politics
Lots of bickering, people with opposing views presenting an opinion

The afl set up means that sheep don't need to think
Look at any board on this site

It is just what the media feed the mindless
Any different view and youre bullied to no end

The biggest issue is that 95% of football viewers either couldn't give a damn about analysis or would not understand it.

Fox Footy had a show a couple of years ago called AFL Insider which was trying to analyse football tactics, however there just isn't the demand for it.

 

[SJ]

Don't fully agree there.

Soccer is one free flowing sport that's analysed pretty well. Like I said earlier, you can do the analysis/punditry at halftime or at the end of the game.

Also your point on Hawthorn dominating, that would've required Clarkson and his assistants being pretty good analysts to be able to create a game plan to conquer Geelong (2008) during our rise, and also post Buddy era.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

Australian football is one of the most complicated sports in the world, easily more complicated than soccer.

 

[StalkingHawk]

The biggest issue is that 95% of football viewers either couldn't give a damn about analysis or would not understand it.

Fox Footy had a show a couple of years ago called AFL Insider which was trying to analyse football tactics, however there just isn't the demand for it.

And good on them for having that, but the reality is, a small fraction off fans have fox, and you can't watch analysis/tactics at the pub.

I think it's best suited to free to air pre/post game, or a dedicated show (still free to air) on a weekday time slot (8.30/9.00 to be out of the way of footy training)