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Elite players - how do we get them?

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The Crows Truth

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Mar 25, 2005
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A serious question.

The one thing I believe all crows fans feel is that we lack elite players with Roo and Hart gone, and Mc Leod/Goody on last legs. But how do we get them? Some Easter Bunny believers on here state that bottoming out doesnt work but I ask them - HOW IN THE HELL DO WE GET THESE TRULY ELITE PLAYERS WITHOUT HIGH DRAFT PICKS or FATHER SON SELECTIONS or IMBALANCED TRADES (which aint likely anymore)

Remember the vast majority of the Crows elite players historically - Roo, Rehn, Smart, Modra, Jarman (Wellman), Mc Leod (Groom), were from early draft concessions that will never again appear.

Look at the players listed 21-1 or better for the Brownlow this year. Notice something...all are top 5 draft picks (except Bartel who was 7 IIRC) or father son selections. You dont pick these elite players up with the picks the crows have had in the last decade. We must accept our relative and consistent success in the last deacde is directly correlated to our lack of elite players now which lets face facts is probably NONE (although arguably we do have some best/near best-in-breed type players like Bock, Porps).

Brownlow Odds 2009 - Centrebet

ABLETT JNR., G (GEE) 8.00
JUDD, C (CARL) 8.00
FRANKLIN, L (HAW) 13.00
BROWN, J (BRIS) 17.00
BARTEL, J (GEE) 21.00
COONEY, A (WBD) 21.00
PAVLICH, M (FRE) 21.00

The 2 betting lines immediately after also include highly drafted/rated Selwood, Riewoldt, Hodge and Cousins (FS) along with older, 'less sophisticated drafting era' picks like Goodes, Harvey and Black.

I would like someone to explain how we can realistically obtain top shelf, elite game breaking players in the future? Can we really have sustained relative success (as experienced in the last decade) and still realistically expect elite players????
 
The Crows Truth said:
I would like someone to explain how we can realistically obtain top shelf, elite game breaking players in the future? Can we really have sustained relative success (as experienced in the last decade) and still realistically expect elite players????
Click to expand...

I see 3 ways.

The Father Son Rule and unless someone like Dr C-Stab and his Master Degree in Maths & Science can control past players DNA i see no way we can control that yet. So that's out of our hands. We ahve to get very lucky and hope we grab a few stars for free.

Bottoming out and finishing in the bottom 2 for priority picks. This comes back to the cluture and integrity of the club and how competitive Neil Craig can keep the playing squad. Unless we have a very poor season with playing form or injuries the only way we will receive these high draft picks is via bottoming out.

And the 3rd way and possiably out most likely way of obtaining these players os with club development. See Simon Goodwin, Tyson Edwards, Nathan Bassett, Nathan Bock, Ben Rutten and Jason Porplyzia. All drafted via the PSD or rookie list and given significant game time early in their career.

It's a major pet hate of mine where we here this statement that players are not ready for AFL. I always call bull shit. Ben Hart and Mark Ricciuto (as well as many, many other players over time have been played before they were ready) just to name were not physically ready to play AFL football as 17 year olds and they did.

In the modern age of football i don't believe any AFL player will be able to develop the skills quick enough in the SANFL to succeed. The SANFL has a part to play in the process but since we are talking about the elite they should have the skill development already to take that next step. 18 year olds should have the skills to suceed if your good enough to be a top 10 draftee, especially midfielders. Maybe KPP might need a bit of time to grow and fill out but FFS not 4 years - it's time to take a risk, see what they can do and if they can develop into anything more than jut a list clogger and play these guys or get them off the list. This is where we will find out next group of top shelf players.

Give them game time and allow them to understand the dynamics of playing AFL football.
 
The plan is to bank on Rendell's ratings of Dangerfield and Davis being correct, and have faith in our ability to develop our kids. We won't know for a while yet, but I doubt we'll change our plan until we know.

Other options include:
Tanking (less effective now with the new teams coming in)
Trading for low picks (A possibility with the new teams around, especially since we have a hot commodity in Tippett)
Trading for established stars (very unlikely)
Trading for talented youngsters from other clubs who we identify as future elite players (slightly more likely, but still pretty difficult unless some kind of go-home factor is involved)
Get lucky with the father-son rule and hope the AFL doesn't find another way to take the kid off us.
 

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I think the whole top 5 draft pick thing is still a little overated. Hawthorn are really the only team to win the flag after 'rebuilding' using all the high draft picks.

We've also used our first round draft picks pretty poorly in the past and that is where we can find 'elite' players. As someone said earlier we can now hope Danger and Davis come on and be elite, but it's also finding the gems like Porps that helps out.

While handy to have, and recruiting is getting a lot better at picking the geniune stars in the draft, top 5 picks don't guarantee anything, and anyone who thinks that's the best way to get elite players and win a flag is kidding themselves.
 
I hope you dont mind me adding an opinion here but the other way that has not been mentioned is having a punt on a 'risky' pick. Port have done it this year with Trengove. He was initially rated as a top 5 pick but dropped due to injury concerns. This is one way of getting an extreme talent without a top 5 pick.

Is it a good policy? Well who knows, Trengoive may never get on the park. I am not saying it is right or wrong (and certainly not trying to pump up the port recruiters) but this is one way of getting elite players.

Selwood is another great example of this. Though he still went quite high he was not a top 5 pick.
 
The Crows Truth said:
A serious question.

The one thing I believe all crows fans feel is that we lack elite players with Roo and Hart gone, and Mc Leod/Goody on last legs. But how do we get them? Some Easter Bunny believers on here state that bottoming out doesnt work but I ask them - HOW IN THE HELL DO WE GET THESE TRULY ELITE PLAYERS WITHOUT HIGH DRAFT PICKS or FATHER SON SELECTIONS or IMBALANCED TRADES (which aint likely anymore)

Remember the vast majority of the Crows elite players historically - Roo, Rehn, Smart, Modra, Jarman (Wellman), Mc Leod (Groom), were from early draft concessions that will never again appear.

Look at the players listed 21-1 or better for the Brownlow this year. Notice something...all are top 5 draft picks (except Bartel who was 7 IIRC) or father son selections. You dont pick these elite players up with the picks the crows have had in the last decade. We must accept our relative and consistent success in the last deacde is directly correlated to our lack of elite players now which lets face facts is probably NONE (although arguably we do have some best/near best-in-breed type players like Bock, Porps).

Brownlow Odds 2009 - Centrebet

ABLETT JNR., G (GEE) 8.00
JUDD, C (CARL) 8.00
FRANKLIN, L (HAW) 13.00
BROWN, J (BRIS) 17.00
BARTEL, J (GEE) 21.00
COONEY, A (WBD) 21.00
PAVLICH, M (FRE) 21.00

The 2 betting lines immediately after also include highly drafted/rated Selwood, Riewoldt, Hodge and Cousins (FS) along with older, 'less sophisticated drafting era' picks like Goodes, Harvey and Black.

I would like someone to explain how we can realistically obtain top shelf, elite game breaking players in the future? Can we really have sustained relative success (as experienced in the last decade) and still realistically expect elite players????
Click to expand...

Here we go again :eek::(

We lose 2 meaningless bs preseason games, one to the best side in the comp and we're already calling for the club to tank for draft picks. I'm surprised we don't get people coming on here after a loss actually celebrating and saying thank god for that, 1 more loss closer to the #1 draft pick:eek: The out-rage after we win our 5th match, relieving us of a priority pick would be almost unbearable:eek:

Please wait for round 1 atleast before calling for us to tank:)

Oh and Dandy's got your answer there Crows Truth.:thumbsu:
 
icrow32 said:
Kurt Tippett board.

Based on his "output" last year I cannot for the life of me understand the excitement over him. I just hope the GC get caught up in this excitement so that we can get a decent draft pick for him.
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Come on....

It was his first year in the side ffs. Played 19 games, kicked 17 goals, had 118 hitouts with an average of 6.2.

For a comparison...

Dean Cox first year playing senoirs
Games Kicks Handballs Disposals Marks Goals Behinds Tackles Hitouts
17 62 69 131 38 2 2 18 184

Lance Franklin first year playing senoirs
Games Kicks Handballs Disposals Marks Goals Behinds Tackles Hitouts
20 140 73 213 75 21 13 39 0

Kurt Tippet first year playing senoirs
Games Kicks Handballs Disposals Marks Goals Behinds Tackles Hitouts
19 70 65 135 44 17 17 32 118

Just a comparison even if there is possible age disparity, remember that Kurt Tippet played as a ruckman and a forward, and if the rumour that Brisbane offered Jamie Charman in a straight swap during trade week is true then that says something of what atleast one opposition club think of him. I'm in no way saying that Kurt will be as good as any of these players, just that some people need some perspective. He actually had a decent year, compared to some of our previous KPP debuts. Anyone remember a certain AA CHB for the Crows named Nathan Bock that a lot of people were calling for his delisting after a bad game...
 

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icrow32 said:
Kurt Tippett board.

Based on his "output" last year I cannot for the life of me understand the excitement over him. I just hope the GC get caught up in this excitement so that we can get a decent draft pick for him.
Click to expand...

Your kidding right? Tippett showed a hell of a lot for his first proper year. Talls generally take time to develop, and he'll be no different, but glimpses he showed throughout the season showed why he is so highly rated. Some of his grabs, pick-ups below his knees just showed what a special player he could turn out to be.
 
crowman_23 said:
Your kidding right? Tippett showed a hell of a lot for his first proper year. Talls generally take time to develop, and he'll be no different, but glimpses he showed throughout the season showed why he is so highly rated. Some of his grabs, pick-ups below his knees just showed what a special player he could turn out to be.
Click to expand...

Exactly there are the glimpses he showed too, on top of his stats.
 
FFS. What the hell does this thread even mean?

We are in the business of winning premierships, not Brownlow Medals. You need a vey good team. A couple elite players helps, but high draft picks are no guarantee and going by Rendell's picks (or most recruiters for that matter), it wouldn't matter too much where our picks are. Elite players are not the only ingredient. Ask St Kilda. You'll see it with Carlton soon as well.

I give you no stars. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
 
The Crows Truth said:
A serious question.

The one thing I believe all crows fans feel is that we lack elite players with Roo and Hart gone, and Mc Leod/Goody on last legs. But how do we get them? Some Easter Bunny believers on here state that bottoming out doesnt work but I ask them - HOW IN THE HELL DO WE GET THESE TRULY ELITE PLAYERS WITHOUT HIGH DRAFT PICKS or FATHER SON SELECTIONS or IMBALANCED TRADES (which aint likely anymore)
Click to expand...

Apart from the wank of preemptively insulting anyone who dares disagree with you in this thread, the system isnt as exact a science as you're trying to suggest.

There are elite players taken outside the first few picks in almost every draft. Champions like Simon Black and Adam Goodes werent first rounders if i remember correctly, as an example. They are there, its a matter of identifying them better than the competition. Easier said than done, but really, thats the nature of professional sport.

Meanwhile, you're suggesting that the days of being able to exploit any loopholes etc are over. Thats not the case at all, the AFL seems to be keen to reward clubs who take chances provided it works along side the AFL itselfs goals. Did we not just one year ago pick one of our most exciting players up through the NSW scholarship program?

These sorts of things are avenues id like to see us look into more than we seem to. Thinking outside the box. We have an enviable position amongst the clubs in the AFL in regards to our financial clout, we should be using that money to explore avenues that others have yet to. Im glad we've finally gotten on board the Ireland train, though id like to see us do more of it.
 

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I don't know if elite is the word but I would like to use part of our Rookie list on trying more established players in the SANFL.
Ben Rutten and Porps were top notch players in the SANFL when they got put on the list.Both were considered too slow or aerobically poor but each found the footy.
A player like James Boyd from South have been labelled too small and slow yet he's won a Magarey in every grade he has played in and is just a beautifully balanced ball magnet.
Brayden O'Hara from Centrals kicks the ball a mile and is as smart and damaging footballer as there is in SANFL.
He too is considered too slow.
Why does every footballer drafted have to be this 'elite' athlete that can run like the wind.
Try recruiting some actual talented footballers who read the play quicker than there immediate opponent. Put them on the rookie list and see if they can compete against these other players at training.
There are some gems out there who have rightly or wrongly missed their chance because they have been labelled and forgotten.
 
Campbell's Chunky said:
lol n00b.

better delist buddy then too ;).
Click to expand...


I am not bagging the guy but what I saw last year was a tall lumbering player who took maybe 1.5 marks per game and couldn't hit the side of barn with his kicks, and absolutely no football brain. Yet the fan fare around him particularly on this board is a bit over the top, its all based on hope. He will most likely be at the GC in a couple of years so we might aswell inflate him to get the best pick possible (ie Fergus Watts a couple of years ago)
 
I love the way people are jumping off the Tippett bandwagon all the time during the off-season. Every week another person comes out and says he's a nothing talent who hasn't shown anything. There was a period there early last year when he showed to us he had all the tools to be a great player but then, when jammed in his debut year down in a non-functioning forward-line, people feel he's got no talent because he only managed a goal a game.
 
KUNG FU said:
FFS. What the hell does this thread even mean?

We are in the business of winning premierships, not Brownlow Medals. You need a vey good team. A couple elite players helps, but high draft picks are no guarantee and going by Rendell's picks (or most recruiters for that matter), it wouldn't matter too much where our picks are. Elite players are not the only ingredient. Ask St Kilda. You'll see it with Carlton soon as well.

I give you no stars. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
Click to expand...

Great thread CT.

Most on here would agree we are highly unlikely to win a premiership for at 3 years, that being the case, then we have gone 13 years without even a GF appearance. You think thats acceptable for a club who spruiks itself as one of the best in the league. So we just continue on business as usual.

Some on here rant that bottoming out would destroy our culture. True, but then being known as a mediocre club that wins nothing isn't exactly enhancing it either.

Sydney aside, there hasn't been a premiership winner over the last 10 years that hasn't had either FS selections or bottomed out for at least 1 year.

Some on here think by tightening their blind fold, clicking their heals and chanting over and over "Craigy/Trigg/Reid always know best" a premiership cup will miraculously appear in our lap.
 

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