List Mgmt. 2014 Draft Discussion Part II

[THE_GUN]

You can also add clayton collard and Cam Petersen. But thats not the point your blaming FJ for something that no.1 is not coming from him and 2 its a chance of circumstances. If we had the picks i doubt we would have ignored Rioli, Yarran, Bennell, Martin ect...

LOL Clayton Collard - Rookie also
Cam Peterson - #54

You can see where im going with this i think, We dont really go after top end indigenous kids , We trow some rookie or very late picks at them just incase we win tattslotto

SORRY - The Buck stops with FRANCIS on this as he is the recruiting manager and he makes the decisions or influences the coaches accordingly
Dimma doesnt have time to go all around the country looking at juniors and / or speak to every recruiting scout out there - Its FJ's JOB to make the call on the player Richmond select

 

[Calcium Man]

Hawks have
Jed Anderson, Cyril Rioli , Shaun Burgoyne , Bradley Hill , Derick Wanganeen on their list and all these boys are doing extremely well

Swans have
Franklin , Jetta , Goodes also 2 are Chamions/Legends and Jetta whilst disappointing yesterday is a very very good footballer not to mention players like O'Loughlan who has contributed to the culture of the swans and is becoming a very respected coach

Whilst you are always going to have your Troy Taylor's occasionally But you Cant go missing out on players like Franklin,Rioli,Goodes etc because they are from west of broome or have 2 parents that are Indigenous

If they can play football and the Psyc.Character test goes well - You take them
But if you recruit players like JON and dont know if they can read until 4 years after you recruit them - What does that tell you about our recruiting
(Francis Jackson started at Richmond in 2005, JON was recruited in his 1st year and was at the club during JON time)

Jetta or Dustin Martin? Franklin we should have got but tambling was rated higher by most, Goodes was in an era of drafting before today, Burgoyne or Dusty, Cyril or Cotchin??

Wanganeen was delisted last year and by the sounds of it will be delisted again this year.

Hill is the one we missed. I won't deny that.

You always come back with this rhetoric about JON being a FJ pick and you were shot down last time by half a dozen posters and now you bring it up again like its fact. Miller picked JON, FJ was part time in 2005 and full time in 06. Its not a recruiters job to develop its his job to recruit, if he is developing JON as well as recruiting then we had a lot more wrong then not picking up on learning problems.

Yes FJ makes mistakes like ALL RECRUITERS. But Grimes, Rance and Astbury are the cornerstone on an excellent backline all picked with 2nd round picks and beyond. Griff is starting to stamp himself as a CHF, Miles has been a sensation off the rookie list and so was Jake King a guy who was instrumental in shifting our culture. Batch had a shocker in the Elim and I would love Parker right now (so would 17 other teams) but he was very very important member of our back 6, covering for Rance and co as well as being very physical.

Does FJ need help and to improve? Yes. Does he need more help? Yes and he looks to be getting it this year with the introduction of Luke (i think thats the guy from Geelong). But he has been a very good contributor to our club for 8 years with about 5 of those being very under resourced in the recruiting and development departments.

 

[Calcium Man]

LOL Clayton Collard - Rookie also
Cam Peterson - #54

You can see where im going with this i think, We dont really go after top end indigenous kids , We trow some rookie or very late picks at them just incase we win tattslotto

SORRY - The Buck stops with FRANCIS on this as he is the recruiting manager and he makes the decisions or influences the coaches accordingly
Dimma doesnt have time to go all around the country looking at juniors and / or speak to every recruiting scout out there - Its FJ's JOB to make the call on the player Richmond select

FJ makes the call based on the conditions set out by Dimma and Blair. They don't rate pace very highly, I disagree with that assumption personally but they are the guys setting the conditions for FJ to pick in.

You can't say why didn't we pick S.Hill or Jetta or Rioli or Bennell or whoever and not consider where our pick was and who we took. Simple put the players you want are not their at our pick or we are reaching for them. There are two players since 08 where we went wrong with the traits you (and me too) want. Brad Hill and Stephen Motlop.

But complaining about not spending high end picks on them is like whinging why didn't we get Dom Tyson last year. If you don't have the picks you cannot always make it happen the way you want.

 

[THE_GUN]

The reason I mention JON is if you go back a few post i said that FJ is scared to invest high picks on indigenous kids because of the JON factor
FJ was part time in 2005 but in his full time years has not invested a high pick on a BLACK KID ?????

The players you mention that are just starting to look ok, whilst i do like these boys, Do we really want to go on the path of who we missed out on after their selections ????

The point im trying to make that you dont want to accept is , FJ a safe selector that will not risk a top pick on a Indigenous kid , I would love to see him (IF available)

1st pic - Pickett

 

[THE_GUN]

FJ makes the call based on the conditions set out by Dimma and Blair. They don't rate pace very highly, I disagree with that assumption personally but they are the guys setting the conditions for FJ to pick in.

You can't say why didn't we pick S.Hill or Jetta or Rioli or Bennell or whoever and not consider where our pick was and who we took. Simple put the players you want are not their at our pick or we are reaching for them. There are two players since 08 where we went wrong with the traits you (and me too) want. Brad Hill and Stephen Motlop.

But complaining about not spending high end picks on them is like whinging why didn't we get Dom Tyson last year. If you don't have the picks you cannot always make it happen the way you want.

I think you are missing my point, Im not saying why we didnt select player like Jetta, Rioli or bennell
Im trying to make a point that if there are 2 player available at our 2nd selection we always tend to go for the 'SAFE' option and indigenous kids are never a safe option but when they come good they are exactly the types we are crying for

For example say there are 2 players available at our 2nd pick this year Bampton v Garlett who do you think FJ will select, My money is on the white kid

 

[Calcium Man]

The reason I mention JON is if you go back a few post i said that FJ is scared to invest high picks on indigenous kids because of the JON factor
FJ was part time in 2005 but in his full time years has not invested a high pick on a BLACK KID ?????

The players you mention that are just starting to look ok, whilst i do like these boys, Do we really want to go on the path of who we missed out on after their selections ????

The point im trying to make that you dont want to accept is , FJ a safe selector that will not risk a top pick on a Indigenous kid , I would love to see him (IF available)

1st pic - Pickett

I would rather Ahern and Weller.

I might agree with your assumption depending on the draft this year as there are players in that selection range who are indigenous (ahern and picket), but Weller is just as quick so i wouldn't be disappointed if it was him. If its Duggan or De Goey i'd be far more disappointed as they are more vanilla then Conca. But if we got them and managed to nab Garlett or Smith in the 2nd round i'd be happy

I disagree that its scared to invest high picks on indigenous kids I do not think they have been at our picks.

06 Riewoldt which was the right pick
07 Cotchin, only Rioli was the only indigenous kids
08 Yarran and Hill gone before our pick, motlop a risk at 39 (from memory) and Post a dud
09 Dusty ahead of Morabito and Jetta was right and whats the difference between a troubled Maori kid that is a risk? We would have taken him 1 ahead of trengove and scully the more vanilla white kids.
10 Bennell not available
11 Wingard (and I think Sumner) gone before our pick. Hill is the guy over Elton but Ellis is pretty comparable, not as quick better kick
12 pick 9 too early for Josh Simpson and Garlett turned out to be a head case
13 Garlett a head case.

 

[tunksy]

Re: indigenous kids

Did anyone watch the coaching special on Friday?

Did you see how the coaches 'code' every passage of play, break it down over an 8 hour review, then communicate to every player exactly what they did good and bad?

I think anyone who has trouble communicating in this type of environment would be far less able to adapt to the team and follow complex instructions. That is why remote indigenous kids should be considered with speculative picks rather than early picks.

Indigenous kids who grew up in a western environment (perhaps with 1 western parent) would be more likely to adapt to the modern AFL environment.

I'm glad we seem to understand this sad reality. Communication and complex instructions make up a huge part of the modern team. Gotta recruit team players.

matt rendell (crows recruiter) got fired for a similar thought. i think its spot on sadly. not being racist, just the realism of the situation unfortunately

 

[_RT_]

The reason I mention JON is if you go back a few post i said that FJ is scared to invest high picks on indigenous kids because of the JON factor
FJ was part time in 2005 but in his full time years has not invested a high pick on a BLACK KID ?????

The players you mention that are just starting to look ok, whilst i do like these boys, Do we really want to go on the path of who we missed out on after their selections ????

The point im trying to make that you dont want to accept is , FJ a safe selector that will not risk a top pick on a Indigenous kid , I would love to see him (IF available)

1st pic - Pickett

IMO we haven't picked the flashy indigenous kids because we were still building the foundations of a good side. That meant picking the safe solid types who can be relied upon week after week to get the job done. The flashy types IMO, and I believe Dimmas opinion, are the cream on top types. The ones you go after once you know you have the solid foundation in place. Look at Hawthorns recruiting since 04:
04 - Roughead Franklin Lewis
05 - Ellis Dowler Birchall Bailey
06 - Thorp
07 - Rioli
08 - Schoenmakers
09 - traded for Burgoyne
10 - Smith
11 - Hill(second round pick)
12 - traded for Lake
13 - traded for McEvoy got Hartung(second round)

As you can see under Clarkson the Hawks have gone the safe dependable types more often than not early with only Rioli & Smith being taken with a 1st round pick. Compare that to our drafting under Hardwick:
09 - Martin
10 - Conca
11 - Ellis
12 - Vlastuin
13 - Lennon

All of them safe secure solid types much like the early drafting that happened under Clarkson. Reckon we might change it up this year and look at adding some speed early on as it's clear that we need it.

 

[Calcium Man]

IMO we haven't picked the flashy indigenous kids because we were still building the foundations of a good side. That meant picking the safe solid types who can be relied upon week after week to get the job done. The flashy types IMO, and I believe Dimmas opinion, are the cream on top types. The ones you go after once you know you have the solid foundation in place. Look at Hawthorns recruiting since 04:
04 - Roughead Franklin Lewis
05 - Ellis Dowler Birchall Bailey
06 - Thorp
07 - Rioli
08 - Schoenmakers
09 - traded for Burgoyne
10 - Smith
11 - Hill(second round pick)
12 - traded for Lake
13 - traded for McEvoy got Hartung(second round)

As you can see under Clarkson the Hawks have gone the safe dependable types more often than not early with only Rioli & Smith being taken with a 1st round pick. Compare that to our drafting under Hardwick:
09 - Martin
10 - Conca
11 - Ellis
12 - Vlastuin
13 - Lennon

All of them safe secure solid types much like the early drafting that happened under Clarkson. Reckon we might change it up this year and look at adding some speed early on as it's clear that we need it.

I really hope we do change it up this year. I think we have a very good core but its now about building around them. I think it began a bit last year, Lennon is that classy/cream type but still has a bit of the cake mix in him, bit like Lids.

I would be disappointed if we picked De Goey or Duggan if Weller, Ahern or Picket are on the board.

 

[_RT_]

I really hope we do change it up this year. I think we have a very good core but its now about building around them. I think it began a bit last year, Lennon is that classy/cream type but still has a bit of the cake mix in him, bit like Lids.

I would be disappointed if we picked De Goey or Duggan if Weller, Ahern or Picket are on the board.

I wouldn't be against Duggan, has speed and skill, can kick goals up forward or break lines from the HBF or through the midfield. As I said in my ideal scenario post, if we wanted to be adventurous we could try and trade into the early/middle second round and could add a number of speedy skillful types to really change things up and I honestly don't think it would hurt us one bit to do it.

 

[richoatthedisco]

Ahern is indigenous. So we can rule him out, apparently.

 

[Calcium Man]

I wouldn't be against Duggan, has speed and skill, can kick goals up forward or break lines from the HBF or through the midfield. As I said in my ideal scenario post, if we wanted to be adventurous we could try and trade into the early/middle second round and could add a number of speedy skillful types to really change things up and I honestly don't think it would hurt us one bit to do it.

I've only seen Duggan 3 times so i can't comment too much but he just seems to be very good at most things but never great. It'll be interesting to see how he goes at draft camp in terms of speed and endurance, but i'll be interested in Weller, Ahern and Pickett too.

 

[Stylo]

Ahern is indigenous. So we can rule him out, apparently.

He does an excellent job of hiding it...

 

[_RT_]

He does an excellent job of hiding it...

You don't have to be dark skinned to have indigenous blood.

 

[Bojangles17]

The reason I mention JON is if you go back a few post i said that FJ is scared to invest high picks on indigenous kids because of the JON factor
FJ was part time in 2005 but in his full time years has not invested a high pick on a BLACK KID ?????

The players you mention that are just starting to look ok, whilst i do like these boys, Do we really want to go on the path of who we missed out on after their selections ????

The point im trying to make that you dont want to accept is , FJ a safe selector that will not risk a top pick on a Indigenous kid , I would love to see him (IF available)

1st pic - Pickett

I'd be buggered if we use a no 1 pick on a jockey sized FP. Our two elim final losses have shown us up for being a class mid short in the clinches when the heats on. A 170cm goal sneak ain't gonna help there and thankfully FJ knows that

 

[THE_GUN]

I'd be buggered if we use a no 1 pick on a jockey sized FP. Our two elim final losses have shown us up for being a class mid short in the clinches when the heats on. A 170cm goal sneak ain't gonna help there and thankfully FJ knows that

Not all Indigenous kids are short, as mentioned before Ahern,Pickett are 180+ and Cockatoo around 188/9

He does an excellent job of hiding it...

A little like Gavin Wanganeen

I really hope we do change it up this year. I think we have a very good core but its now about building around them. I think it began a bit last year, Lennon is that classy/cream type but still has a bit of the cake mix in him, bit like Lids.

I would be disappointed if we picked De Goey or Duggan if Weller, Ahern or Picket are on the board.

Totally agree with the Bolded comment, And would love Garlett/Cockatoo if available with our later selections

 

[Calcium Man]

Not all Indigenous kids are short, as mentioned before Ahern,Pickett are 180+ and Cockatoo around 188/9


A little like Gavin Wanganeen


Totally agree with the Bolded comment, And would love Garlett/Cockatoo if available with our later selections

I agree with that. Don't think Garlett makes our 2nd pick but Clem Smith might. Hopefully Cockatoo didn't increase his draft stocks too much on the weekend.

 

[_RT_]

I've only seen Duggan 3 times so i can't comment too much but he just seems to be very good at most things but never great. It'll be interesting to see how he goes at draft camp in terms of speed and endurance, but i'll be interested in Weller, Ahern and Pickett too.

I wouldn't be taking Duggan if Laverde or Weller were there, don't think we'll need to worry about Pickett, pretty much headed to the Eagles. If they are gone then more than happy to take Duggan as he would slot in nicely opposite Houli on a HBF to start off.

 

[Mr Magic]

I wouldn't be taking Duggan if Laverde or Weller were there, don't think we'll need to worry about Pickett, pretty much headed to the Eagles. If they are gone then more than happy to take Duggan as he would slot in nicely opposite Houli on a HBF to start off.

I would take Duggan over Weller. He can play a role at AFL level, left footer, has flexibility, Weller sounds like a type you get all the time and may not have a solid role in a GF scenario. At least Dugan can play HBF and or wing and go from there

 

[Calcium Man]

I wouldn't be taking Duggan if Laverde or Weller were there, don't think we'll need to worry about Pickett, pretty much headed to the Eagles. If they are gone then more than happy to take Duggan as he would slot in nicely opposite Houli on a HBF to start off.

Lavarde won't be there and but would be a great pick at 11... 6 is too early.

I love that we made finals, but goddammit i hate having pick 11 (and probably 12) and waiting for whoever falls.

 

[_RT_]

Lavarde won't be there and but would be a great pick at 11... 6 is too early.

I love that we made finals, but goddammit i hate having pick 11 (and probably 12) and waiting for whoever falls.

Cyril Rioli was pick 12.

 

[Calcium Man]

Cyril Rioli was pick 12.

So we should take Ahern

 

[TigerTime3]

Hawks have
Jed Anderson, Cyril Rioli , Shaun Burgoyne , Bradley Hill , Derick Wanganeen on their list and all these boys are doing extremely well

Swans have
Franklin , Jetta , Goodes also 2 are Chamions/Legends and Jetta whilst disappointing yesterday is a very very good footballer not to mention players like O'Loughlan who has contributed to the culture of the swans and is becoming a very respected coach

Whilst you are always going to have your Troy Taylor's occasionally But you Cant go missing out on players like Franklin,Rioli,Goodes etc because they are from west of broome or have 2 parents that are Indigenous

If they can play football and the Psyc.Character test goes well - You take them
But if you recruit players like JON and dont know if they can read until 4 years after you recruit them - What does that tell you about our recruiting
(Francis Jackson started at Richmond in 2005, JON was recruited in his 1st year and was at the club during JON time)

With all due respect, you've missed the point.

Cyril Rioli, for example, spent time in Melbourne for a few years before being drafted. At a private school I believe. Therefore he's actually more likely than most people to be capable of communicating complex gameplan details with the team and coach.

It's no different to NAB recruiting finance people who can handle the type of professional communication required to do their job. Kids from rural NT simply don't have a chance these days, same as they couldn't communicate professionally in the corporate world in a job (without years of training, which is possible).

The AFL advertises itself as a sport for all shapes and sizes and backgrounds, but it's becoming more professional and the demands are more culturally specific.

 

[Tigerbob]

I would take Duggan over Weller. He can play a role at AFL level, left footer, has flexibility, Weller sounds like a type you get all the time and may not have a solid role in a GF scenario. At least Dugan can play HBF and or wing and go from there

What does that even mean? May not play a solid role in a GF?

 

[_RT_]

What does that even mean? May not play a solid role in a GF?

Save your time too.