2015 Non-Crows AFL Discussion - Pt. 1

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Whats everyones thoughts on our round 2 opponent Collingwood? I actually think for the first time in a long time we match up really well with them (we obviously did last year as well beating them twice - but prior to 2014 we were their bunnies).

Think we have the advantage is in the middle with Sauce v Grundy, Pendles V Danger, Swan V Crouch, Greenwood v Sloane, Sidebottom V Douglas and Adams v Thompson.

We have the ability to cover their forwards as well. Historically Talia has accounted for Cloke, I am confident that Hartigan can handle White and Brown has matched up very well on Elliot.

I think we have the big advantage in our forward 50. Walker/Jenkins/Betts will be very tough for Frost/OKeefe/Williams to handle. They have also lost a hell of a lot of experience and drive off of half back over the past 2 years - Heath Shaw, Harry O and Nick Maxwell have all been very influential in how Collingwood move the ball out of their back 50. They will really be hoping that Varcoe can take over the Shaw/HarryO role in 2015 so that they can allow Goldsack to be the defensive forward. He will no doubt get the role on Smith.

For me the biggest question is whether Ben Reid will play any significant part for them. Has been sent to Germany to try and fix up those troublesome hammy's. He makes them a much much better side when healthy as he can help out in attack and defense.

Collingwood have a lot (and I mean a lot) of highly rated youngsters in Kennedy, Broomhead, Grundy, De Goey, Moore, Freeman, Maynard alongside the talented but injured Scharenburg.

Considering we only play the Pies once - I am glad it happens early before their side gets settled.
 
Jul 13, 2012
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Re the greyhound thing, I was watching offside or whatever it's called on the ABC. One of the live baiting trainers was suspended. He simply transferred all his dogs to his wife's name. One of them came second just now in a big race and they collected their 30k prize as per usual.

Burn that industry to the ground.

So should we burn the AFL industry to the ground because Essendon are drug cheats? Hell they were using their players as guinea pigs the whole time.
Actions of a small number of people do not reflect an entire industry.

Essentially your saying the livelihood of some rabbits are worth more than the human beings that wont have a job or a house or any money once they lose their job in the industry.

I was as sickened as anyone by the live baiting. Its a disgusting and disgraceful thing to do and from all reports doesnt actually make the dogs any faster. But i know a number of greyhound trainers etc and they do nothing of the sort. Their dogs are treated better than a house pet.
 
Mate youre dillusional if you think they will miss any actual AFL games...
You're delusional if you think the players won't miss any games! It's not the Afl's decision ;)
 
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One of the SA trainers stated that she uses furry toys that squeak... but according to you & a few others, no trainer is clean.

I'm of the view of the previous posts, if you can't run greyhounds without this barbaric training methods, then the industry should die.

If people need something to gamble on, give them toad racing or a new AFC moderator every week ;)

I lost all interest in the "sport" after seing this BUT in England for years they used whippets and greyhounds to chase both hares and rabbits in an enclosed course, hence the sport was called coursing. Greyhound racing was derived from this.

Now ask yourself this, if this so called shocking report had not be published would you have known about it? IMO opinion it is a typical Murdoch paper beatup.

I'm NOT condoning the practice in anyway, just stating what I have personally seen.
 
Jul 13, 2012
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You're delusional if you think the players won't miss any games! It's not the Afl's decision ;)

Backdated brah.
I know its not the AFL decision, but a 6mth out of season ban means they miss no games...
Just like Alberto Contador got a 2 year ban but didnt miss a tour de france...
 

Mike Smyth

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I lost all interest in the "sport" after seing this BUT in England for years they used whippets and greyhounds to chase both hares and rabbits in an enclosed course, hence the sport was called coursing. Greyhound racing was derived from this.

Now ask yourself this, if this so called shocking report had not be published would you have known about it? IMO opinion it is a typical Murdoch paper beatup.

I'm NOT condoning the practice in anyway, just stating what I have personally seen.
A sport torturing and killing live animals to enable its athletes to supposedly get stronger - I fail to see the beatup.
 
Jul 13, 2012
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A (small number of members of a) sport torturing and killing live animals to enable its athletes to supposedly get stronger - I fail to see the beatup.

EFA.
Sorry but if thats your attitude all AFL clubs are using their players as lab rats to supposedly get stronger.

Oh and all professional sportsmen are coke dealers

Oh and all professional sportsmen are rapists

Oh....wait theres really no need to go on is there.

Definitely needed reporting, but people saying shut down the industry are blind to the consequences.
 
Feb 3, 2004
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Except essendon arent getting banned...

Considering that WorkSafe Victoria has dismissed the case against the other AFL clubs (which was instigated by someone 'assisting' the Essendon camp so Essendon can point at the others and go but look they are ALL doing it too!) but is still investigating Essendon tells me it is more likely that they are still in a poop load of trouble.
 
Feb 3, 2004
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Backdated brah.
I know its not the AFL decision, but a 6mth out of season ban means they miss no games...
Just like Alberto Contador got a 2 year ban but didnt miss a tour de france...

They won't get 6 months for a nearly 2 year doping program if they are found guilty! If they do, it still takes them into May, which means they miss games. There is no such thing as 'out of season bans'. You are showing a lack of understanding of the WADA code. The code does not distinguish between in and out of competition. It is only related to time periods.

Also, the min penalty is normally 12 months for something like this, which means they would miss the whole of the year as their penalty will be backdated to Nov last year when the Infraction notice was served.

Any reductions are related to either substantial assistance they have provided (which apart from confessions and pointing fingers at other officials, I don't think have happened at all) and/or a no fault where they were unconscious and drugs administered without their knowledge while they were unconscious. Again the signing of consents etc means they were fully aware there was a program occurring and they agreed to partake in it.

The AFL tribunal which is made up of three independent judges decide the guilt/innocence and then set the penalty, which can then be protested by ASADA/WADA and the players and support person.

Have a look here at recent sanctions doled out by ASADA - http://www.asada.gov.au/rules_and_violations/sanctions.html the majority of them are 2 years

Also Contador did miss a tour de france. Have a look at 2012...
 
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They won't get 6 months for a nearly 2 year doping program if they are found guilty! If they do, it still takes them into May, which means they miss games. There is no such thing as 'out of season bans'. You are showing a lack of understanding of the WADA code. The code does not distinguish between in and out of competition. It is only related to time periods.

Also, the min penalty is normally 12 months for something like this, which means they would miss the whole of the year as their penalty will be backdated to Nov last year when the Infraction notice was served.

Any reductions are related to either substantial assistance they have provided (which apart from confessions and pointing fingers at other officials, I don't think have happened at all) and/or a no fault where they were unconscious and drugs administered without their knowledge while they were unconscious. Again the signing of consents etc means they were fully aware there was a program occurring and they agreed to partake in it.

The AFL tribunal which is made up of three independent judges decide the guilt/innocence and then set the penalty, which can then be protested by ASADA/WADA and the players and support person.

Have a look here at recent sanctions doled out by ASADA - http://www.asada.gov.au/rules_and_violations/sanctions.html the majority of them are 2 years

Also Contador did miss a tour de france. Have a look at 2012...

Its all semantics though.
The rules are the rules until the rules are changed or broken.
The case is not as open and shut as some body builder injecting themselves with steroids.

Sorry yes he missed 1 tour de france. He was suspended in February and was allowed to race again in August. So...6 months of a 2 year ban. Meanwhile he was competing for the other 18 months. So again... If essendon get 6 months that takes them into what the first week of April?
 
Feb 3, 2004
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Its all semantics though.
The rules are the rules until the rules are changed or broken.
The case is not as open and shut as some body builder injecting themselves with steroids.

Sorry yes he missed 1 tour de france. He was suspended in February and was allowed to race again in August. So...6 months of a 2 year ban. Meanwhile he was competing for the other 18 months. So again... If essendon get 6 months that takes them into what the first week of April?

Did you not read what I wrote? I said it takes them into May. 13 November, add on 6 months.

That will be when they are allowed to start training again, so they will then have to make up for the training time they have missed. It will be more towards the end of May before they are fit enough to play a game of AFL, IF they get six months.

Have a look at that sanctions list again and look at the one for Use, Administration or Attempted Administration and Trafficking of a Prohibited Substance - handy dandy 2 year penalty there!

Why are people believing this six months penalty? Where are you pulling it from? Any sanction tends to be one or two years. Contador got 2 years, but cycling allowed him to continue competiting while under investigation. Essendon players are not allowed to partake in 'competitions'. Stop trying to compare apples with oranges. The WADA code has been adjusted since the Contador ruling.
 
Jul 13, 2012
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Did you not read what I wrote? I said it takes them into May. 13 November, add on 6 months.

That will be when they are allowed to start training again, so they will then have to make up for the training time they have missed. It will be more towards the end of May before they are fit enough to play a game of AFL, IF they get six months.

Have a look at that sanctions list again and look at the one for Use, Administration or Attempted Administration and Trafficking of a Prohibited Substance - handy dandy 2 year penalty there!

Why are people believing this six months penalty? Where are you pulling it from? Any sanction tends to be one or two years. Contador got 2 years, but cycling allowed him to continue competiting while under investigation. Essendon players are not allowed to partake in 'competitions'. Stop trying to compare apples with oranges. The WADA code has been adjusted since the Contador ruling.

Essendon took part in competitions for the whole last 18 months while under investigation.
Also the players were not involved in administration, attempted administration or trafficking, ONLY with use.
Therefore I would doubt they will get the full 2 years.

We'll see how it plays out, but quoting the rule book wont necessarily work in this situtation. There are a number of extenuating circumstances.

Also you said "cycling allowed him to..." well how did they do that? Doesnt the decision rest solely with WADA? Whats stopping the AFL doing the same thing?
 
Feb 3, 2004
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Essendon took part in competitions for the whole last 18 months while under investigation.
Also the players were not involved in administration, attempted administration or trafficking, ONLY with use.
Therefore I would doubt they will get the full 2 years.

They are allowed a presumption of innocence in this instance as there are no positive tests available for those type of drugs. But once the Infraction Notices were served, they were not allowed to partake in 'competitions'. The AFL granted them permission to continue training and two players asked to play in the International Rules game. This was allowed, but any backdating will occur to the day after those games for those two players.

A player is responsible for what goes into their body. So the rule they are likely charged with is - Rule 2. Use or attempted use by an athlete of a prohibited substance or prohibited method. I used that other 2 year sanction to show you that something without a positive test can have a 2 year sanction placed on it.

We'll see how it plays out, but quoting the rule book wont necessarily work in this situtation. There are a number of extenuating circumstances.

The rule book is what the Tribunal will be adjudicating against. How can they not be considering it? How can we not be looking at it to try and gauge what is likely to happen? What are the extenuating circumstances? That they have never had to consider a systematic team doping violation like this before?

Also you said "cycling allowed him to..." well how did they do that? Doesnt the decision rest solely with WADA? Whats stopping the AFL doing the same thing?

While sports have to be signatories to the WADA codes, there are some adjustments that can be made for each individual sport. So while the AFL does out-of-competition testing, the SANFL and the other leagues do not.

Also please answer my other question on where you were pulling the six months from.
 

mattymac

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So should we burn the AFL industry to the ground because Essendon are drug cheats? Hell they were using their players as guinea pigs the whole time.
Actions of a small number of people do not reflect an entire industry.

Silly analogy. As of yesterday 30 trainers had been suspended across 3 states. That suggests a fairly endemic problem compared to a single rogue operator.
 

Mike Smyth

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EFA.
Sorry but if thats your attitude all AFL clubs are using their players as lab rats to supposedly get stronger.

Oh and all professional sportsmen are coke dealers

Oh and all professional sportsmen are rapists

Oh....wait theres really no need to go on is there.

Definitely needed reporting, but people saying shut down the industry are blind to the consequences.
I fail to see the relevance with the afl. A human being if he thinks he is being mistreated has the option to walk away the animal kingdom is at our mercy.
 

headache1

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EFA.
Sorry but if thats your attitude all AFL clubs are using their players as lab rats to supposedly get stronger.

Oh and all professional sportsmen are coke dealers

Oh and all professional sportsmen are rapists

Oh....wait theres really no need to go on is there.

Definitely needed reporting, but people saying shut down the industry are blind to the consequences.

The last time I checked, AFL players are human beings, capable of saying "no, I don't want to do this". The same can't be said for the rabbits and other small animals that these greyhound trainers were using as live bait. There is no comparison. Well, none that has any basis in reality anyway.
 
Jul 13, 2012
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Silly analogy. As of yesterday 30 trainers had been suspended across 3 states. That suggests a fairly endemic problem compared to a single rogue operator.

How many of those 30 trainers were suspended with no evidence? Oh thats right they had to overturn the decision because there was no evidence against almost all of the trainers concerned.
I mean if you're going to do it like that then Essendon had like 30 players taking drugs.
Not to mention the other incidents of recreational drug use...

All im saying is that you dont shut down an entire industry due to a few people doing the wrong thing.
So because cheating in cycling is rife, should they just shut down all cycling events?
 
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Jul 13, 2012
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The last time I checked, AFL players are human beings, capable of saying "no, I don't want to do this". The same can't be said for the rabbits and other small animals that these greyhound trainers were using as live bait. There is no comparison. Well, none that has any basis in reality anyway.

In the same way they have the ability to say no, they also have consequences for saying no. Essentially loss of career, earnings, house, partner....etc etc.

So now if an animal doesnt want to do it, then we shouldnt allow it?
Ban steaks then.
Ban eggs.
Ban milk.
Im guessing you consume all of these things...what if the cow doesnt want a farmer pulling on his udder all morning?

Its plain madness to think like that.

What those individuals did was wrong and disgusting and even if it is rife through the industry (which i dont really believe that it is) that is absolutely no cause to shut down the industry.
 

headache1

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In the same way they have the ability to say no, they also have consequences for saying no. Essentially loss of career, earnings, house, partner....etc etc.

So now if an animal doesnt want to do it, then we shouldnt allow it?
Ban steaks then.
Ban eggs.
Ban milk.
Im guessing you consume all of these things...what if the cow doesnt want a farmer pulling on his udder all morning?

Its plain madness to think like that.

What those individuals did was wrong and disgusting and even if it is rife through the industry (which i dont really believe that it is) that is absolutely no cause to shut down the industry.

Zaharakis still has a spot on Essendon's list doesn't he?

Come on mate, seriously. Sensationalism at its finest. There's no point even debating this if you can't see the difference between the examples you've just suggested, and using animals as live bait to train a dog to run around a track.
 
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