List Mgmt. 2015 Trade, Free agency and draft rumours

[Crankyhawk]

I'd imagine on a fair bit of coin to. Maybe back end loaded allowing for the retirement of a few players

Anticipating tippett leaving would be my guess, and Sam Reid to be paid less if not delisted. That would free up significant space.

 

[Hodginator]

For those thinking about it....

@ClarkyHeraldSun: Daniel Hannebery has signed a 5-yr extension SydneySwans. Locked away until 2021. Won't be a free agent. Great deal @EliteSportsProp

 

[List Manager]

Nothing like a little healthy debate on a Friday - http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/dangerfield-2016.1100937/page-10#post-39280338

These Adelaide folk are adamant their club won't accept anything but adequate compensation

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Jesus, so the best side in the comp for the last 3 years has a bunch of players not able to squeeze out premiership and AA stars....and so they are list cloggers.

Oh boy wowee.

 

[Gunstall555]

Jesus, so the best side in the comp for the last 3 years has a bunch of players not able to squeeze out premiership and AA stars....and so they are list cloggers.

Oh boy wowee.

Lol not lost on me.

 

[dipper86]

If you look at our list we have a barrel load of list cloggers, guys who are brilliant VFL players and are good footballers but heading into their prime have not come on like we want.

Woodward
O'brien
Grimley
Simpkin
Whitecross ( injuries I know )
Anderson ( what's happened here? )
Brand
Heatherly
Willsmore

You would have hoped that at least one of these guys would have put their hand up to announce themselves, all of them are in their 20s and surely should be pushing the likes of Suckling/Schoenmakers. Jedi is only getting the footy 16 times at VFL level, surely he should be dominating?

Our top end young talent is a concern. We need to see an emergence of a Jack Crisp from somewhere! A 6ft3 mid who kicks goals from the rookie list.. How the hell was that guy a rookie?

Majority of those players would be getting consistent games in other line ups, the fact is we have had an elite list for the past 3 years. Some players cant get games because their bodies are undeveloped (O'brien), some cant get a game because we have a surplus of the type already in our main lineup (woody ando simpkin etc)
Whats concerning though for some of these players is how much VFL football is too much...some of these guys need consistent first grade football to take the next step. They are too good VFL football.

 

[Procrastinator35]

If you look at our list we have a barrel load of list cloggers, guys who are brilliant VFL players and are good footballers but heading into their prime have not come on like we want.

Woodward
O'brien
Grimley
Simpkin
Whitecross ( injuries I know )
Anderson ( what's happened here? )
Brand
Heatherly
Willsmore

You would have hoped that at least one of these guys would have put their hand up to announce themselves, all of them are in their 20s and surely should be pushing the likes of Suckling/Schoenmakers. Jedi is only getting the footy 16 times at VFL level, surely he should be dominating?

Our top end young talent is a concern. We need to see an emergence of a Jack Crisp from somewhere! A 6ft3 mid who kicks goals from the rookie list.. How the hell was that guy a rookie?

Heatherly is a category B Rookie....Hardly a list-clogger.

Willsmore has just this year been elevated from the rookie list, has just turned 20 & continues to improve....Just the kind of developing kid you'd want on your list playing at VFL level....Again, hardly a list-clogger....Ditto Brand & O'Brien, both key position prospects who have just turned 21.

Anderson & Whitecross both still in recovery mode coming off 2 knee-recos & severe pneumonia, which almost claimed Jed's life....The kid is lucky to still be alive, much less be playing football....2 re-rehabilitating footballers & hardly list-cloggers, given their form when at peak fitness.

Which leaves all of:

Grimley
Simpkin
Woodward (Also 2 knee recos & just turned 22)

And your one bleeding obvious omission

Schoenmakers

A Poor & CLUMSY post tige19

 

[Agent Smith]

The lower down the ladder teams ( everyone but us in the last few yrs) do give their younger players a crack because their senior players probably have a 50/50 split as to which ones will be regulars or even survive the cut by years end! Our most senior players have been gunning it so it's hard to gauge how talented our young ones stack up at senior level. We can't judge them from five or so games and half the time they're wearing the dreaded subs vest! I think if we were to throw some of these into the deep end for about 20 games like the pies thru Buckley have then we can start judging. ATM, I fell sorry for our draftees/ trades of the last few years because there seems to be a 'Revolving door ' policy and even then you can't have a quiet game or back to BHH the week after. Here is how I see the team at the start of 2017.

Doc - Frawley - Stratts
Birch - Brand - Lither

Hill - Langford - Smith
Cegs - Lewis - JED

Rioli - O'Brien - Breust
Gunno - Rough - O'Rourke

Pops - Big Boy - Hartung - Woody

Though, I believe Hodgey will still be around but I honestly dunno.

Traded away our future captain did we, or do you imagine Liam Shiels struggling at VFL level in 2017?

 

[Crankyhawk]

Jesus, so the best side in the comp for the last 3 years has a bunch of players not able to squeeze out premiership and AA stars....and so they are list cloggers.

Oh boy wowee.

We have shown that our list clogger can be like a consistent best 22 player (in cheyney) which says a lot for our development and list quality.

 

[tige19]

Heatherly is a category B Rookie....Hardly a list-clogger.

Willsmore has just this year been elevated from the rookie list, has just turned 20 & continues to improve....Just the kind of developing kid you'd want on your list playing at VFL level....Again, hardly a list-clogger....Ditto Brand & O'Brien, both key position prospects who have just turned 21.

Anderson & Whitecross both still in recovery mode coming off 2 knee-recos & severe pneumonia, which almost claimed Jed's life....The kid is lucky to still be alive, much less be playing football....2 re-rehabilitating footballers & hardly list-cloggers, given their form when at peak fitness.

Which leaves all of:

Grimley
Simpkin
Woodward (Also 2 knee recos & just turned 22)

And your one bleeding obvious omission

Schoenmakers

A Poor & CLUMSY post tige19

You've given me reasons for everyone which is brilliant... I'm confident now.

 

[List Manager]

We have shown that our list clogger can be like a consistent best 22 player (in cheyney) which says a lot for our development and list quality.

Don't forget Mitch Hallahan

4 season's for 6 games at Hawthorn
Has played 8 out of 11 games since being traded to Gold Coast.
Injuries "may" have helped him get more consistent game time up there.

We are in a very fortunate position to have such unprecedented depth on our list.
Never underestimate the job that our recruiting team has done in re-shaping our list over the last 5 years in particular even though the job started way back in 2004 with Roughead, Franklin and Lewis.

Please, never loose sight of that. It is a privileged position we are/have been in as supporters!

 

[tige19]

Jesus, so the best side in the comp for the last 3 years has a bunch of players not able to squeeze out premiership and AA stars....and so they are list cloggers.

Oh boy wowee.

Every club has list cloggers, were not exempt from that. I'm not saying everyone of those guys are no good, I'm simply pointing out we have players who haven't seem to come on like we would have hoped. Some of those players have been on the list for 3-4 seasons and aren't close to senior selection. Call what you want, perhaps depth players is w softer and prettier word.

 

[tige19]

Heatherly is a category B Rookie....Hardly a list-clogger.

Willsmore has just this year been elevated from the rookie list, has just turned 20 & continues to improve....Just the kind of developing kid you'd want on your list playing at VFL level....Again, hardly a list-clogger....Ditto Brand & O'Brien, both key position prospects who have just turned 21.

Anderson & Whitecross both still in recovery mode coming off 2 knee-recos & severe pneumonia, which almost claimed Jed's life....The kid is lucky to still be alive, much less be playing football....2 re-rehabilitating footballers & hardly list-cloggers, given their form when at peak fitness.

Which leaves all of:

Grimley
Simpkin
Woodward (Also 2 knee recos & just turned 22)

And your one bleeding obvious omission

Schoenmakers

A Poor & CLUMSY post tige19

It's a ruthless world my friend

 

[List Manager]

Every club has list cloggers, were not exempt from that. I'm not saying everyone of those guys are no good, I'm simply pointing out we have players who haven't seem to come on like we would have hoped. Some of those players have been on the list for 3-4 seasons and aren't close to senior selection. Call what you want, perhaps depth players is w softer and prettier word.

In the middle of a premiership window, which multiple premiership player gives up their spot for:

Woodward
Anderson
O'Briend
Brand
Heatherley
O'Rourke
Sicily
Webster
Willsmore
Howe

????

Patience is a virtue my friend!

 

[tige19]

In the middle of a premiership window, which multiple premiership player gives up their spot for:

Woodward
Anderson
O'Briend
Brand
Heatherley
O'Rourke
Sicily
Webster
Willsmore
Howe

????

Patience is a virtue my friend!

My point is more about some of my list ( 2-3 ) should be pushing guys like Schoey/Suckers out of the side.. I'm not sam the simpleton, I know we have a great list with solid depth, I simply want to see a few kids announce themselves.

As I said previously, every club has list cloggers and we aren't exempt.

My first experiences at games was in the 80s, I was growing up in the prime of our club.. That has taught me to expect success rather than hope for it, hence the patience may not be there. Spoilt a little ? Maybe.. Ruthless and hungry ? Probably more so.

 

[Kuuz]

If you look at our list we have a barrel load of list cloggers, guys who are brilliant VFL players and are good footballers but heading into their prime have not come on like we want.

Woodward
O'brien
Grimley
Simpkin
Whitecross ( injuries I know )
Anderson ( what's happened here? )
Brand
Heatherly
Willsmore

You would have hoped that at least one of these guys would have put their hand up to announce themselves, all of them are in their 20s and surely should be pushing the likes of Suckling/Schoenmakers. Jedi is only getting the footy 16 times at VFL level, surely he should be dominating?

Our top end young talent is a concern. We need to see an emergence of a Jack Crisp from somewhere! A 6ft3 mid who kicks goals from the rookie list.. How the hell was that guy a rookie?

Well one of them did put their hand up in the last couple of years. Actually a number of our young players have stood up and pushed people out of the team:
- Duryea has now cemented himself in the top 22.
- Langford pushed out Sewell last year and will no doubt return.
- Hartung has stood up massively this year
- Litherland has shown that he is a man ready and waiting

We cant have every young player jump into the team at once. We're slowly transitioning our young players in. Takes time, and you don't want it to happen all at once, like Geelong or more drastically, like the Saints, as your form falls off a cliff.

 

[List Manager]

My point is more about some of my list ( 2-3 ) should be pushing guys like Schoey/Suckers out of the side.. I'm not sam the simpleton, I know we have a great list with solid depth, I simply want to see a few kids announce themselves.

As I said previously, every club has list cloggers and we aren't exempt.

My first experiences at games was in the 80s, I was growing up in the prime of our club.. That has taught me to expect success rather than hope for it, hence the patience may not be there. Spoilt a little ? Maybe.. Ruthless and hungry ? Probably more so.

It's just odd that you are doubting our younger guys so openly when they can't get a game in a back to back premiership side.
I reserve my judgement on our kids for another 2-3 seasons, until they actually get the chance to "announce themselves".

Remember we don't have the top 10 draft picks that most other clubs have the luxury of having, the kids that can instantly announce themselves once drafted.
It's part of the cycle, you can't stay at the top, contend for flags and recruit cream of the crop kids every year without some kind of drop off.

I have a theory.
Next year is our last chance as a serious premiership contender for 2-3 years before Clarko and our recruiting team start to rebuild our list again.
Our recruiting targets will change to top end 21-23 year olds with a view to another sustained premiership window in 5 years time.
We will have higher turnover of our list from 2017 and will try to get access to best available draft picks and rising stars from other clubs. All at a time when our draft picks will be higher and we have more money to spend post Hodge, Mitchell, Burgoyne, Lake, Hale, Gibson

Just my opinion.

 

[MrPremiership]

None of the kids at BH are deadset demanding an AFL game. Woody has been very good, but he wouldn't knock out anyone from the 22 playing against Essendon this week (don't say Suckling as Woody can't play that role)

If the kids are good enough to crack the 22 of the best AFL team in the last 3 years, then eventually they will. Don't worry, it will happen. Back in the day, didn't Dipper play 99 reserves games?

 

[Kuuz]

Every club has list cloggers, were not exempt from that. I'm not saying everyone of those guys are no good, I'm simply pointing out we have players who haven't seem to come on like we would have hoped. Some of those players have been on the list for 3-4 seasons and aren't close to senior selection. Call what you want, perhaps depth players is w softer and prettier word.

Okay, I think we need a proper definition of list clogger, as mine seems different to yours.

List clogger to me is someone on the list who offers NOTHING and yet takes up salary cap space. The best example I can think of is a Dale Thomas. Does nothing, injured all the time and taking up a HUGE amount of cap space.

Of our senior list, I honestly can't think of anyone who truly fills that "useless" tag. Maybe Joffa, just because I don't think he will make it back into the team, and is purely a depth player. But even still, hardly useless. Grimley doesn't really count as he's a rookie player, so hes paid peanuts. The rest I think are pushing hard for senior selection or developing well, as they are still young.

I think it's particularly important to note how impressive it is that our youngest players also seem to be pushing for selection, such as Howe and Miles. Says a lot about our pinpoint recruiting.

 

[cryptor]

Our younger players are developing very nicely at VFL. They don't just get the benefit of training alongside the likes of champion players during the week but on weekends they are learning to win off their own efforts at VFL against other future AFL players. Not only learning to win but enjoying it together. They might not be getting the constant AFL games other players at other clubs might be getting but they are getting the chance to play in premierships at VFL level with their mates while getting paid AFL wages to do so.

The older Geelong guys who are nearing the end also had a similar development at VFL. Winning premierships together likely brought them closer together as a group as they transitioned into AFL where they were more prepared to play for each other and also had the know-how to win flags. I see a similar thing happening with our next gen. I sometimes worry they won't want to stick around and play VFL with us when they could be playing AFL elsewhere, but I think they realise the benefits of this system and they're enjoying winning most weeks either way.

 

[tige19]

It's just odd that you are doubting our younger guys so openly when they can't get a game in a back to back premiership side.
I reserve my judgement on our kids for another 2-3 seasons, until they actually get the chance to "announce themselves".

Remember we don't have the top 10 draft picks that most other clubs have the luxury of having, the kids that can instantly announce themselves once drafted.
It's part of the cycle, you can't stay at the top, contend for flags and recruit cream of the crop kids every year without some kind of drop off.

I have a theory.
Next year is our last chance as a serious premiership contender for 2-3 years before Clarko and our recruiting team start to rebuild our list again.
Our recruiting targets will change to top end 21-23 year olds with a view to another sustained premiership window in 5 years time.
We will have higher turnover of our list from 2017 and will try to get access to best available draft picks and rising stars from other clubs. All at a time when our draft picks will be higher and we have more money to spend post Hodge, Mitchell, Burgoyne, Lake, Hale, Gibson

Just my opinion.

I appreciate the response and complteley respect what you say however I think our definition of 'kid' differs. Kid to me is not 22-23 years old, kid to me is 18-21 max, by the time you get 22-23 you should be established or close to being established.

I'll say this, I don't see many from the list I wrote to be established by that age and if you're not established by your 4th-5th season you probably need to be looked at. I lived with my best mate who spent 4 years on a list, he had 25 odd touches on debut and was delisted after his 4th season after about 9 games, it was fairly well accepted that at the elite level the maximum you get is 4 years, with some being cut after 2.

I just want to see more of our 3rd/4th/5th years really push on, if they don't then they very much are list cloggers.

 

[List Manager]

Just a reminder of our first picks in the national draft over the last 5 years:

2014 Pick 31 Dan Howe
2013 Pick 24 Billy Hartung
2012 Pick 28 Tim O'Brien
2011 Pick 33 Bradley Hill
2014 Pick 19 Isaac Smith

Most of these picks could be classed as speculative yet 2 are best 22 and premiership players, 1 is starting to see regular game time, one has had Roughead, Gunston, Franklin and Hale cemented in his position since being drafted and the other has debuted as a sub and had 10 touches in his first season.

Not sure what more can be asked of them really.

Later picks are even more speculative!

 

[Brishawk]

Just a reminder of our first picks in the national draft over the last 5 years:

2014 Pick 31 Dan Howe
2013 Pick 24 Billy Hartung
2012 Pick 28 Tim O'Brien
2011 Pick 33 Bradley Hill
2014 Pick 19 Isaac Smith

Most of these picks could be classed as speculative yet 2 are best 22 and premiership players, 1 is starting to see regular game time, one has had Roughead, Gunston, Franklin and Hale cemented in his position since being drafted and the other has debuted as a sub and had 10 touches in his first season.

Not sure what more can be asked of them really.

Later picks are even more speculative!

Remarkable record considering we also brought in established players in most of those seasons.

 

[tige19]

Just a reminder of our first picks in the national draft over the last 5 years:

2014 Pick 31 Dan Howe
2013 Pick 24 Billy Hartung
2012 Pick 28 Tim O'Brien
2011 Pick 33 Bradley Hill
2014 Pick 19 Isaac Smith

Most of these picks could be classed as speculative yet 2 are best 22 and premiership players, 1 is starting to see regular game time, one has had Roughead, Gunston, Franklin and Hale cemented in his position since being drafted and the other has debuted as a sub and had 10 touches in his first season.

Not sure what more can be asked of them really.

Later picks are even more speculative!

If you look at my list I never said Howe.. I did mention O'brien, he is one that from watching Box Hill hasn't really improved.

 

[tige19]

Our younger players are developing very nicely at VFL. They don't just get the benefit of training alongside the likes of champion players during the week but on weekends they are learning to win off their own efforts at VFL against other future AFL players. Not only learning to win but enjoying it together. They might not be getting the constant AFL games other players at other clubs might be getting but they are getting the chance to play in premierships at VFL level with their mates while getting paid AFL wages to do so.

The older Geelong guys who are nearing the end also had a similar development at VFL. Winning premierships together likely brought them closer together as a group as they transitioned into AFL where they were more prepared to play for each other and also had the know-how to win flags. I see a similar thing happening with our next gen. I sometimes worry they won't want to stick around and play VFL with us when they could be playing AFL elsewhere, but I think they realise the benefits of this system and they're enjoying winning most weeks either way.

This is a scenario I'm hoping for and one that may transpire. I sincerely hope our younger guys running around playing park footy aren't pigeon holed as VFL players.