$275mill for Holden ...Help me understand

[Admiral Byng]

3rd world countries do these things? News to me. Of course the mainstream think these things antithesis to prosperity, but the mainstream thinks consumption + inflation = wealth. Massive lols. I take your absence as a clue to the depth of your knowledge.

Never be so arrogant as to assume those who disagree with you do so out of ignorance.

 

[Scotland]

The point is car manufacturers can't be competitive without subsidies. It an economists nightmare, but that because governments see the importance of a car manufacturing base in the need to self sufficient.

If you removed all subsidies global car production wouldn't immediately cease. The market would readjust and cars would continue to be built.

The real point is that our government is stupid and continues to hand money to MNCs to maintain small scale car production in this country - something which doesn't add that much value to the nation and certainly isn't self sufficient.

 

[noddy]

If you removed all subsidies global car production wouldn't immediately cease. The market would readjust and cars would continue to be built.

The real point is that our government is stupid and continues to hand money to MNCs to maintain small scale car production in this country - something which doesn't add that much value to the nation and certainly isn't self sufficient.

Over two hundred thousand jobs directly/indirectly are associated with the car industriey & you say not much value, strange way of looking at it.

What about steel making & all the associated industries that are connected with that industry?

In fact what about manufacturing on the whole in this country just let it flounder under the high A$ & the so-called two speed eco?

 

[Scotland]

Over two hundred thousand jobs directly/indirectly are associated with the car industriey & you say not much value, strange way of looking at it.

What about steel making & all the associated industries that are connected with that industry?

In fact what about manufacturing on the whole in this country just let it flounder under the high A$ & the so-called two speed eco?

No, just keep handing them taxpayer money forever so they can continue to build average quality cars that people no longer want to buy, and every time they realise they're years behind what the rest of the World is doing just give them more. Seems a workable alternative.

 

[greennick]

Over two hundred thousand jobs directly/indirectly are associated with the car industriey & you say not much value, strange way of looking at it.

What about steel making & all the associated industries that are connected with that industry?

In fact what about manufacturing on the whole in this country just let it flounder under the high A$ & the so-called two speed eco?

I've seen what those statistics are based on, so much of the supposed automotive employment is bunk, they include people in all kinds of industries, including hospitality and other "support" industries. It even includes people in sales, which is ridiculous because if they were not employed selling Holdens, they would be employed selling cars which are actually good.

At the same time as over inflating their own statistics, they only quote people directly employed by mining companies when referring to their employment statistics, ignoring all the people directly involved in mining through the various service companies.

And the $275m doesn't guarantee 200k jobs. It guarantees something like 10k at Holden and probably another 10k in component manufacturers. I do think some kind of support is OK, however I disagree in direct contributions, manufacturer specific subsidies, and manipulating figures to support your argument.

 

[Paradigm]

Any ideas what that might be?

I'm genuinely curious, I can't really think of anything.

I got no idea neither!

Novel concept but what say we just make some things a lot BETTER than the s**t that comes from China.

I paid extra for a Miele dishwasher for example.

 

[King Elvis]

Aren't we just putting off the inevitable pain for another day/government to deal with?

This 'package' should be viewed as buying ten years for us to figure out how to handle Holden closing; but it wont, we'll be having this discussion again in 9 years.

 

[beaver fever]

Never be so arrogant as to assume those who disagree with you do so out of ignorance.

I'm trying to provoke a response so you actually contribute to the discussion.

 

[beaver fever]

I don't keep any economics book besides my bed, thankfully, but tell me, if the economic failure of the west is inevitable, which countries are putting in place your wingnut prescriptions so I know where to relocate before the s**t hits the fan. Which countries have moved to the gold standard, have made FRB illegal and don't have a central bank?

What's your preparation for this inevitable economic failure, by the way? Buying gold? Look out for tungsten, mate.

None these days, you would have to go back to the industrial revolution. Interesting to see how the standard of living changed during that time.

There are very little opportunity to make money, so you might as well do what you can to make sure the government doesn't inflate it away.

 

[Clay Davis]

Fractional reserve banking was illegal in the industrial revolution? Central banks didn't exist? Bank of England has been around since 1695. Surely you're not talking about the mercantilist times of the 18th century and before, which certainly weren't free trade?

Bizarre.

 

[Eagle87]

You could force innovation if it won't be given up voluntarily.

Tax credits & setup cost reimbursement for implementing new technologies. You're then subsidising whilst at least trying to drive behaviours.

The tax credits for innovation is interesting but in practice we are way off the mark as regards tax...

If I create some new IP in Oz and Licence that for use outside Oz I cop taxes on the royalties I receive + I cop taxes in Australia on Australian use. I also, more importantly cop taxes if I ever sell the IP under our capital gains system.

Contrast that with holding that IP in loads of other tax jurisdictions. Singapore for example doesn't tax capital gains...

Our tax system actively works against holding IP here. The fact that they now seek to capture taxes on IP developed here and subsequently transferred elsewhere means companies are even less likely to seek to develop IP here...

I suspect most people have no idea how counter-productive our task system is in a range of areas ...

But it raises some money for Holden to keep pumping out cars that most don't want ... and the protection of that industry ensures we pay more for cars than those in countries like the US & UK ... so we ll lose except for a few bogans in Elizabeth

 

[Ktrain]

The tax credits for innovation is interesting but in practice we are way off the mark as regards tax...

If I create some new IP in Oz and Licence that for use outside Oz I cop taxes on the royalties I receive + I cop taxes in Australia on Australian use. I also, more importantly cop taxes if I ever sell the IP under our capital gains system.

Contrast that with holding that IP in loads of other tax jurisdictions. Singapore for example doesn't tax capital gains...

Our tax system actively works against holding IP here. The fact that they now seek to capture taxes on IP developed here and subsequently transferred elsewhere means companies are even less likely to seek to develop IP here...

I suspect most people have no idea how counter-productive our task system is in a range of areas...

I bow to your tax knowledge, but yes from what I've seen there is a massive problem with our taxes not incentivising growth. If one of the aims of govt is to fill the void where the private sector won't then to me it seems we do a really poor job of providing the carrots.

 

[evo]

Some good vids by those guys. I really liked the why women make less money one. Have been saying it all along. It is what I find so funny about that "equal pay for equal work" crap the government came up with.

Yeah, it's not bad. I like 'social cooperation: why thieves hate free markets.'

 

[beaver fever]

Fractional reserve banking was illegal in the industrial revolution? Central banks didn't exist? Bank of England has been around since 1695. Surely you're not talking about the mercantilist times of the 18th century and before, which certainly weren't free trade?

Bizarre.

I'm not aware of fractional reserve banking being illegal, but central banking was a lot different to today without the gold standard. The Fed and the RBA weren't established until the 1900s. The bank of Amsterdam held 100% reserves until it eventually succumbed to FRB.

If your question is can we look at places with free trade? No you can only see varying degrees of freer trade.

 

[Eagle87]

I bow to your tax knowledge, but yes from what I've seen there is a massive problem with our taxes not incentivising growth. If one of the aims of govt is to fill the void where the private sector won't then to me it seems we do a really poor job of providing the carrots.

The issue is lack of any long term policy or vision that informs tax policy.

The US many years ago simply exempted the new Internet thingy - as it then was - from tax for 10 years (from memory).

We have no vision, so Treasury advises on tax policy on the very narrow basis of tax revenue impacts over the forward estimates. If they reduce corporate tax by, say 5% they just reduce down corp tax estimates by 5% and say it costs $x and it gets ruled out.

There seems no capacity for stating that "this is the economy we want" and so tax policy needs to do the following to help us get there.

The government doesn't even seem to grasp that tax cost is an issue ... It's like they see it as somehow divorced from other costs and therefore a non-factor.

 

[Clay Davis]

I'm not aware of fractional reserve banking being illegal, but central banking was a lot different to today without the gold standard.

And what difference has this made to living standards? Did living standards go backwards in the 20th century when the gold standard was introduced. Keep in mind the gold standard was abandoned when convenient for government throughout its history (see any way). It was hardly much of a standard at all.

The Fed and the RBA weren't established until the 1900s.

It would have been hard to establish an RBA before federation.

The bank of Amsterdam held 100% reserves until it eventually succumbed to FRB.

You mean in 1800? Ties in quite well with the 'industrial revolution'.

If your question is can we look at places with free trade? No you can only see varying degrees of freer trade.

Not sure what you mean here.

You seem to be idolising a time past without any experience of it, and have this delusion we're on the brink of a total economic collapse. I reckon you're living in one of the better countries on the planet, which has never been wealthier or lived longer.

Sure, there's plenty of things to reform, but revolutionary dismantling of economic institutions just because you've read a few fringe authors is hardly a sane prescription.

 

[beaver fever]

And what difference has this made to living standards? Did living standards go backwards in the 20th century when the gold standard was introduced. Keep in mind the gold standard was abandoned when convenient for government throughout its history (see any way). It was hardly much of a standard at all.

All correct.

It would have been hard to establish an RBA before federation.

FRB was created about 120 years after federation, and the RBA was created about 60 years after federation.

You mean in 1800? Ties in quite well with the 'industrial revolution'.

That was meant to be an approximate time period where some of this stuff was apparent. It wasn't supposed to be a specific period, but continue to be pedantic if you wish.

Not sure what you mean here.

You seem to be idolising a time past without any experience of it, and have this delusion we're on the brink of a total economic collapse. I reckon you're living in one of the better countries on the planet, which has never been wealthier or lived longer.

Sure, there's plenty of things to reform, but revolutionary dismantling of economic institutions just because you've read a few fringe authors is hardly a sane prescription.

Point I'm making there has never been a period of time where this stuff has been a reality. I'm not idolising the industrial revolution, I'm only a fan of certain aspects of it. Why does experience of it matter? Does a Doctor have to experience cancer to be able to diagnose it and treat it? Yes I am and yes it is wealthy, but that's on the back of productive people, not on the back of government policy or inflation from central banks.

I just listed a bunch of stuff to get some discussion going. At the end of the day I wouldn't choose to implement any of this stuff, unless people agreed to do it. I'm not a totalitarian like the greens.

 

[DaftPunk]

The tax credits for innovation is interesting but in practice we are way off the mark as regards tax...

If I create some new IP in Oz and Licence that for use outside Oz I cop taxes on the royalties I receive + I cop taxes in Australia on Australian use. I also, more importantly cop taxes if I ever sell the IP under our capital gains system.

Contrast that with holding that IP in loads of other tax jurisdictions. Singapore for example doesn't tax capital gains...

Our tax system actively works against holding IP here. The fact that they now seek to capture taxes on IP developed here and subsequently transferred elsewhere means companies are even less likely to seek to develop IP here...

I suspect most people have no idea how counter-productive our task system is in a range of areas ...

But it raises some money for Holden to keep pumping out cars that most don't want ... and the protection of that industry ensures we pay more for cars than those in countries like the US & UK ... so we ll lose except for a few bogans in Elizabeth

Australia has one of the worlds lowest automotive tariffs. It's one of the worlds most competitive automotive markets (luxury cars excluded). And btw its more than just a few jobs in lizbeth, it's thousands of jobs across the country and one of national policy. Even Johnny H argued hard for thr survival of the car industry and in particular Holden.

 

[Eagle87]

Australia has one of the worlds lowest automotive tariffs. It's one of the worlds most competitive automotive markets (luxury cars excluded). And btw its more than just a few jobs in lizbeth, it's thousands of jobs across the country and one of national policy. Even Johnny H argued hard for thr survival of the car industry and in particular Holden.

The much mooted flow on effect to 200,000 jobs is way overstated according to most people with a clue ...

As for competitive, thats simply errant nonsense. The most recent, classic example, was the Holden Monaro, which when rebadged and exported to the states, was cheaper to buy there than it was in Oz..... Our car prices are high and our pricing of quality cars - a basic BMW 3 series for example - is insane...

The last point, re Howard, is irrelevant. i'm not even entirely sure its true but its neither here nor there.

Holden should stand on its own 2 feet and in its sector it can't do that unless it exports. GM will instead find ways to shift much of the production of even Australian developed cars to places like Thailand because they have larger and more efficient factories and because they are closer to the large emerging car markets.

This "support" for the sector is even more ridiculous at a time when skilled worker shortages of 70,000+ are predicted in sectors in which we are globally competitive. Use the money to retrain people to move into productive sectors and kill 2 birds with one stone. Of course they'd need to move from a series of safe ALP seats to ones less so .... but that wouldn't be a factor, surely?

 

[Paradigm]

http://news.drive.com.au/drive/toyota-cuts-350-altona-jobs-20120123-1qdjm.html

I still don't get it. Are Holden jobs worth more than Toyota jobs?
Toyota - ists

or QANTAS jobs .... ??????

 

[Paradigm]

...or Hastie jobs .......

I feel this list is going to be a long one......

 

[Hill2Pav]

http://news.drive.com.au/drive/toyota-cuts-350-altona-jobs-20120123-1qdjm.html

I still don't get it. Are Holden jobs worth more than Toyota jobs?
Toyota - ists

or QANTAS jobs .... ??????

It's a South Australian thing!

 

[Paradigm]

It's a South Australian thing!

Nah - QANTAS was Melbourne wasn't it ?

We also have just been told BHP will probably delay Olympic Dam expansion.......

Lucky we have that big mean Premier , Jay, to go and bat for us.

In England they thought he was from NSW!!!!!!

 

[Hill2Pav]

Nah - QANTAS was Melbourne wasn't it ?

We also have just been told BHP will probably delay Olympic Dam expansion.......

Lucky we have that big mean Premier , Jay, to go and bat for us.

In England they thought he was from NSW!!!!!!

The government handing money to inefficient industries for a few votes seems to be something to do with the rust bucket state that is SA and the Federal Government of all flavours!

 

[medusala]

Sure, there's plenty of things to reform, but revolutionary dismantling of economic institutions just because you've read a few fringe authors is hardly a sane prescription.

It mightnt make the MSM but there are a large number of people who think the central banking system in its current form is unsustainable.

see Zoellic.

As for the EURO that will come to a shuddering halt probably sooner rather than later.