A Current affairs attack on Hillsong

[Cooldude]

I just stated that I agree that humans have historically used religion as one of many reasons for justifying their actions.

As tesseract's post suggests, blaming religion for all of it is silly, and there must be a deeper cause. I believe it is the nature of man. When you look at deliberately irreligious societies historically (such as revolutionary France and the communist regimes of the 20th century) things don't seem to get much better. In fact, they get worse.

That's the same silly argument the gun nuts in the US justify the right to bear arms, "religion doesn't hurt people, people hurt people".

"Worse"? You might wanna have a look at some religious states throughout history and in fact even now in the middle east, then recalibrate your definition of "worse"

And citing tesseract as back up is very sad indeed

 

[The Speaker]

That's the same silly argument the gun nuts in the US justify the right to bear arms, "religion doesn't hurt people, people hurt people".

The point of gun control is not to eliminate guns entirely, is it?

"Worse"? You might wanna have a look at some religious states throughout history and in fact even now in the middle east, then recalibrate your definition of "worse"

Can you point out which historical states you think are worse than the murderous irreligious regimes I have mentioned?

And citing tesseract as back up is very sad indeed

He was citing an independent source.

 

[Cooldude]

The point of gun control is not to eliminate guns entirely, is it?

It's to put strict control on the regulation and ease of access to firearms based on need such as hunting and so forth, it's called rules regulating and controlling a certain aspect of society to minimise damage caused by it. How much regulation is in place against religious organisations and their inner workings really that is even comparable to that? Please read the constitution to figure out why there isn't

It's not until decades and decades of systematic coverup gets digged out that they are finally held accountable to some of the heinous deeds they commit in the shadows IE child abuse, and that's just some of it.

Can you point out which historical states you think are worse than the murderous irreligious regimes I have mentioned?

Would you like to see the long list of things Hitler says about Christianity and his "faith", and basically using Christianity and scriptures as a vehicle for him "doing the work of the Almighty Creator" and so forth? That crazy guy that kinda killed loads of people, ya know? But are you gonna just wash your hands and say "hey he has nothing to do with it, he was just bad?"

Are you gonna turn a blind eye on the ridiculous amount of violence Islamic states and Muslim extremists even today that cause a tremandous amount of violence around the world, who shout they're doing it for Allah, yet you're just gonna say "yeah nah they be bad people, nothing to do with religion"?

If you study history even a little you will understand there are toooons of violence caused by religion since forever, people, countries, states, citing faith as either justification or as a reason for their initiation of violence against someone else. But if you're gonna cherry pick a few states and incidents that might or might not suit your argument and ignore the rest to prove a ridiculous point, then go ahead, I can see why you're citing tesseract.

If someone explicitly claims religion as a reason for him initiating violence against someone else, whether an individual, a group, a church or a country, then religion owns that. That's religion's fault. You don't get to wash your bloodied hands free, try to shirk responsibility and say, "heeey, he has nothing to do with us, they are just bad people". Coz if you look at religions and their teachings, there are plenty of things people can use to justify violence and war, you don't get to disown those bits that irrefutably exist

He was citing an independent source.

An independent source cited by tesseract is either called a "fairytale" or "makebelieve bullshit"

 

[Boston tiger]

It's to put strict control on the regulation and ease of access to firearms based on need such as hunting and so forth, it's called rules regulating and controlling a certain aspect of society to minimise damage caused by it. How much regulation is in place against religious organisations and their inner workings really that is even comparable to that? Please read the constitution to figure out why there isn't

It's not until decades and decades of systematic coverup gets digged out that they are finally held accountable to some of the heinous deeds they commit in the shadows IE child abuse, and that's just some of it.




Would you like to see the long list of things Hitler says about Christianity and his "faith", and basically using Christianity and scriptures as a vehicle for him "doing the work of the Almighty Creator" and so forth? That crazy guy that kinda killed loads of people, ya know? But are you gonna just wash your hands and say "hey he has nothing to do with it, he was just bad?"

Are you gonna turn a blind eye on the ridiculous amount of violence Islamic states and Muslim extremists even today that cause a tremandous amount of violence around the world, who shout they're doing it for Allah, yet you're just gonna say "yeah nah they be bad people, nothing to do with religion"?

If you study history even a little you will understand there are toooons of violence caused by religion since forever, people, countries, states, citing faith as either justification or as a reason for their initiation of violence against someone else. But if you're gonna cherry pick a few states and incidents that might or might not suit your argument and ignore the rest to prove a ridiculous point, then go ahead, I can see why you're citing tesseract.

If someone explicitly claims religion as a reason for him initiating violence against someone else, whether an individual, a group, a church or a country, then religion owns that. That's religion's fault. You don't get to wash your bloodied hands free, try to shirk responsibility and say, "heeey, he has nothing to do with us, they are just bad people". Coz if you look at religions and their teachings, there are plenty of things people can use to justify violence and war, you don't get to disown those bits that irrefutably exist




An independent source cited by tesseract is either called a "fairytale" or "makebelieve bullshit"

Maybe if Hitler had headed off to a Hillsong Convention instead of invading Poland he may have started feeling better about himself and gone home to mum and not worried about world domination.

 

[The Speaker]

It's to put strict control on the regulation and ease of access to firearms based on need such as hunting and so forth, it's called rules regulating and controlling a certain aspect of society to minimise damage caused by it. How much regulation is in place against religious organisations and their inner workings really that is even comparable to that? Please read the constitution to figure out why there isn't

It's not until decades and decades of systematic coverup gets digged out that they are finally held accountable to some of the heinous deeds they commit in the shadows IE child abuse, and that's just some of it.

I have no idea how this is meant to relate to my point.

You and your ilk have been proposing that if we get rid of religion entirely, as in, it ceases to exist, that the world will be better. Therefore you should not compare it to gun control, as gun control is about the correct use of guns, just as, say, promoting good theology would be the correct use of religion.

Would you like to see the long list of things Hitler says about Christianity and his "faith", and basically using Christianity and scriptures as a vehicle for him "doing the work of the Almighty Creator" and so forth? That crazy guy that kinda killed loads of people, ya know? But are you gonna just wash your hands and say "hey he has nothing to do with it, he was just bad?"

I didn't think anyone still adhered to the well-worn nonsense that Nazism was Christian.

There was, of course, an attempt to transform Christianity within Germany (by removing anything to do with the Jews, along with changing a significant number of other basic theological tenents) so that it was more suited to Nazi ideology, but that rather suggests that it was inherently un-Christian.

Are you gonna turn a blind eye on the ridiculous amount of violence Islamic states and Muslim extremists even today that cause a tremandous amount of violence around the world, who shout they're doing it for Allah, yet you're just gonna say "yeah nah they be bad people, nothing to do with religion"?

I am not going to defend the Islamic State, an undoubtedly evil entity which should raise questions about Islam specifically.

But if you are a Muslim living in Islamic State territory, chances are life is proceeding relatively normally. They have, by all reports, put in place the structures of states which are working smoothly, which is more than can be said for, say, North Korea. So even they don't qualify as being inherently worse than irreligious regimes, despite their use of Islam for such evil.

If you study history even a little you will understand there are toooons of violence caused by religion since forever, people, countries, states, citing faith as either justification or as a reason for their initiation of violence against someone else. But if you're gonna cherry pick a few states and incidents that might or might not suit your argument and ignore the rest to prove a ridiculous point, then go ahead, I can see why you're citing tesseract.

And I asked you to demonstrate specifically a religiously based state that was worse that the irreligious regimes I mentioned, which you have failed to do, instead trying to shift towards individual use of religion as an excuse for violence.

If someone explicitly claims religion as a reason for him initiating violence against someone else, whether an individual, a group, a church or a country, then religion owns that. That's religion's fault. You don't get to wash your bloodied hands free, try to shirk responsibility and say, "heeey, he has nothing to do with us, they are just bad people". Coz if you look at religions and their teachings, there are plenty of things people can use to justify violence and war, you don't get to disown those bits that irrefutably exist

It is a dangerous path to walk down, given the great variety of religions that exist around the world, to claim that every single one of them in all of their texts justifies violence wholeheartedly. You wish to ignore entirely even the possibilities of context, and of interpretation, and anything else that would be expected in any other field of life.

An independent source cited by tesseract is either called a "fairytale" or "makebelieve bullshit"

It is a shame you have no interest in being logical or reasonable about it.

 

[Cooldude]

I have no idea how this is meant to relate to my point.

You and your ilk have been proposing that if we get rid of religion entirely, as in, it ceases to exist, that the world will be better. Therefore you should not compare it to gun control, as gun control is about the correct use of guns, just as, say, promoting good theology would be the correct use of religion.

Because you make the same idiotic argument as the gun nuts, "look yeah sure there are some religious people who are crazy and murderous but aren't humans bad anyway so it's not really religion's fault, it's people's fault". We have been through this, just because your comprehension skill is zero doesn't mean it ain't related

I and my ilk suggested getting rid of religion entirely? When have I ever said that? You and your ilk are prone to delusions, aren't ya? Making s**t up is what you do best

What is "good theology" anyway? The entire point of religion is the endless interpretations of one scriptures that can be interpreted in any way anyone wishes to suit their own personal prejudice. What you deem as "good" is not good in some other people of faith's minds, and how exactly are you gonna go about unifying the theology? More than 2000 years of religious conflicts later and you still think that is a viable option? Please come back to reality.

I didn't think anyone still adhered to the well-worn nonsense that Nazism was Christian.

There was, of course, an attempt to transform Christianity within Germany (by removing anything to do with the Jews, along with changing a significant number of other basic theological tenents) so that it was more suited to Nazi ideology, but that rather suggests that it was inherently un-Christian.

Whoosh, thanks for missing the point. Of course they aren't Christian, but they will use Christian scriptures and citing Christianity as a justification of their heinous deeds. That is the point I've been trying to make, you cannot claim bad people are just bad it is not the fault of religion, when continually people misuse it for their purposes because there are enough evidence in the good book to support whatever their prejudice is. You cannot just throw your hands back and say ah yeah but they ain't Christian and absolve religion of any responsibility in this.

I am not going to defend the Islamic State, an undoubtedly evil entity which should raise questions about Islam specifically.

But if you are a Muslim living in Islamic State territory, chances are life is proceeding relatively normally. They have, by all reports, put in place the structures of states which are working smoothly, which is more than can be said for, say, North Korea. So even they don't qualify as being inherently worse than irreligious regimes, despite their use of Islam for such evil.

LOL you ill informed fool, Muslim extremists kill other Muslims all the bloody time. Do you even read the news with ISIS? Btw, more than 10 million muslims have been killed by other muslims since 1948. You don't have the first clue on what is going on

And I asked you to demonstrate specifically a religiously based state that was worse that the irreligious regimes I mentioned, which you have failed to do, instead trying to shift towards individual use of religion as an excuse for violence.

Seriously? You're like asking a guy to show you whether the sky is blue and the grass is green and say the guy has nothing coz he isn't stupid enough to oblige by your idiocy. Go learn world history properly first

Btw you know the examples I've cited aren't "individual use of religion" at all, right? It ain't the work of one individual, Einstein.

It is a dangerous path to walk down, given the great variety of religions that exist around the world, to claim that every single one of them in all of their texts justifies violence wholeheartedly. You wish to ignore entirely even the possibilities of context, and of interpretation, and anything else that would be expected in any other field of life.

No one said every one of them justifies violence wholeheartedly. Yet again your delusions are giving you visions that do not exist. Stop making crazy generalizations that no one has made

Yet again if you think all the other branches of religion/sects/cults can someday unify their ideology to the "good" doctorine that you yourself think is acceptable then ha I pity your naivety. Jesus would come back before that ever happens.

It is a shame you have no interest in being logical or reasonable about it.

Says the guy who is talking non-sense

I've been the only one citing absolute stone wall facts, don't go projecting your own bs on others

 

[The Speaker]

Crying that I do not know history does not actually prove that I do not know history. I have asked you, very simply, to nominate religious based states that were worse than irreligious states. You have not even attempted to do so.

Sometimes I would continue to engage with you, but this is not one of those times, as I am simply not willing to put up with your constant, baseless insults that are full of such bile and hatred that it beggars belief you can think this acceptable. I hope you don't treat people in real life with such contempt.

Perhaps I will come back later.

 

[Maggie5]

Because you make the same idiotic argument as the gun nuts, "look yeah sure there are some religious people who are crazy and murderous but aren't humans bad anyway so it's not really religion's fault, it's people's fault". We have been through this, just because your comprehension skill is zero doesn't mean it ain't related

I love it when I am told that guns kill people, not people or that religion or race is not a factor in war.
If you exclude religion, race and guns, not sure the numbers of how many wars or people getting killed would be.
No point in looking at history when the present tells it all.

 

[Cooldude]

Crying that I do not know history does not actually prove that I do not know history. I have asked you, very simply, to nominate religious based states that were worse than irreligious states. You have not even attempted to do so.

Sometimes I would continue to engage with you, but this is not one of those times, as I am simply not willing to put up with your constant, baseless insults that are full of such bile and hatred that it beggars belief you can think this acceptable. I hope you don't treat people in real life with such contempt.

Perhaps I will come back later.

Dude, you're the one who says that Muslims are generally safe in Muslim states, that is like the wrongest thing ever said in this forum. Yet you're still going on about me having no proof that you know nothing about world history or even just current news? Ha

I have made nothing but rational and accurate arguments and observations so far, yet you're the one continually putting words in people's mouths. Just because you cannot find a proper rebuttal to the points I've made doesn't make it bile and hatred. It's just you getting owned in a debate and going off crying to your mum talking about how people are being meanies to you

Baseless insults? They are hardly baseless, my friend, I'm entitled to call a spade a spade, it wouldn't be an insult, just accurate description. If you don't wanna be called an idiot or delusional fool then don't act exactly like one

I hope you don't go around saying the things you've said so far in real life either, you'll get laughed outta the country

 

[Cooldude]

I love it when I am told that guns kill people, not people or that religion or race is not a factor in war.
If you exclude religion, race and guns, not sure the numbers of how many wars or people getting killed would be.
No point in looking at history when the present tells it all.

It's always the same nutty people making those arguments, I've never talked to any religious fanatics trying to come out sounding an expert about their faith without showing them just how poorly informed, ill adviced and out of touch they really are with reality. It's like a symptom one must have to believe that stuff in the first place, let alone be that fanatical about it

 

[ep2018]

Dude, you're the one who says that Muslims are generally safe in Muslim states, that is like the wrongest thing ever said in this forum. Yet you're still going on about me having no proof that you know nothing about world history or even just current news? Ha

I have made nothing but rational and accurate arguments and observations so far, yet you're the one continually putting words in people's mouths. Just because you cannot find a proper rebuttal to the points I've made doesn't make it bile and hatred. It's just you getting owned in a debate and going off crying to your mum talking about how people are being meanies to you

Baseless insults? They are hardly baseless, my friend, I'm entitled to call a spade a spade, it wouldn't be an insult, just accurate description. If you don't wanna be called an idiot or delusional fool then don't act exactly like one

I hope you don't go around saying the things you've said so far in real life either, you'll get laughed outta the country

Maybe you would have been more well received if you weren't throwing snide remarks at the end of your sentences. No need to act like a prick just because you feel as though you have the superior argument. The only worse thing than a preaching Christian is a preaching atheist.

 

[Cooldude]

Maybe you would have been more well received if you weren't throwing snide remarks at the end of your sentences. No need to act like a prick just because you feel as though you have the superior argument. The only worse thing than a preaching Christian is a preaching atheist.

If you don't want people to throw snide remarks then don't come up with the most ridiculous premises possible. No one would act like a prick if people don't act like self-righteous morons to begin with. And how exactly are you labelling me an atheist based on nothing but your own preconceptions? People who make assumptions based on nothing but their own shallow prejudice like you are the worst

 

[mikey127]

Some may consider this worth a read

http://hillsong.com/media/bobbies-and-my-finances-a-letter-from-brian-houston/

 

[Maggie5]

Some may consider this worth a read

http://hillsong.com/media/bobbies-and-my-finances-a-letter-from-brian-houston/

I am sure that they are more profitable since 2010.

 

[mikey127]

I am sure that they are more profitable since 2010.

possibly, just thought some might be interested to read it.

 

[Pie eyed]

I normally don't watch A Current Affair but i did watch last night to see there story on Hillsong.

I am a Christian and haven't been to Hillsong, I would like to one day out of interest but from what I have seen and heard I don't agree with all of their teachings.

Having said that I found the A Current Affair story very interesting.

They said something along the lines of Brian Houston (Hillsong Pastors) refuses to speak to the media yet then showed a grab of him speaking to a channel 9 microhone, he has also been on 2GB, 2UE, and I have definetely seen a feature interview with him on channel 7. I have also seena shorter interview with him on Sunrise.

They talked about the conference fees, I have been to conferences where you have to pay a lot more then that.

They talked about Hillsong Cd's and books being sold there, don't see and issue here.

They had an ex church attendee who seemed to just enjoy the A Current Affair spotligtht.


Again I don't agree with everything they do but seemed like a very dodgy story.

I would be interested to here from anyone who has ever been to one of their churches (especially there main one in Sydneyy) what was the experience like

A Current Affair beating up a dodgy story?
Can't be true....

 

[Hawthorn United]

Gloria Jeans has a connection with Hillsong. Since learning about it, I have never set foot in one of their cafes.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 

[Maggie5]

Gloria Jeans has a connection with Hillsong. Since learning about it, I have never set foot in one of their cafes.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

Good to know, me too from now on.

 

[CountryRace]

Pack of lunatics imho

 

[blackcat]

Pack of lunatics imho

lol

 

[Present Not Past]

More than happy to give my hard earned to churches (including Hillsong).
My God when I think of the money that's taken off me and wasted by the governments and councils in this country

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

Personally, I would rather give money directly to people in need than to any church.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Had one of Hillsongs leaders come around to school in the early 2000's, got his hooks into a couple of kids by bribing them with clothes and even bought a couple of them Ipod's and one a laptop. Turned them into recruiters for "God's work". I reckon a third of the school went to one of these things. Used to come watch our school footy games as well and hand out gatorades. Dude always creeped me out so I pissed myself laughing when I saw him on ACA a few years later...



TLDW: Hillsong leader lied about having cancer to cover up his pr0n addiction...

 

[Sydney Bloods]

More than happy to give my hard earned to churches (including Hillsong).
My God when I think of the money that's taken off me and wasted by the governments and councils in this country

it makes you want to piss away whats left?

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

Had one of Hillsongs leaders come around to school in the early 2000's, got his hooks into a couple of kids by bribing them with clothes and even bought a couple of them Ipod's and one a laptop. Turned them into recruiters for "God's work". I reckon a third of the school went to one of these things. Used to come watch our school footy games as well and hand out gatorades. Dude always creeped me out so I pissed myself laughing when I saw him on ACA a few years later...



TLDW: Hillsong leader lied about having cancer to cover up his pr0n addiction...

He was purportedly 'cured' of:

• Glandular Fever

• A Blood Clot in his brain

• A Brain Tumor

• A Burst Ear Drum

• A broken leg

• 33 other broken bones, including

• 2 broken arms,

• 8 broken bones in his back

• 2 Broken hips

• and several broken ribs

• Multiple Myelomas – a rare bone cancer usually reserved for old men

• And a blood cancer diagnosis that gave him just 9 months to live.

https://planetshakersinsider.wordpr...hael-guglielmucci-is-church-culture-to-blame/