A thread on politics- have some balls and post

[POBT]

The LNP will run a positive campaign based on their record.

Surely you don't believe that.

Again, this is not a partisan comment but there is no way the LNP will run a "positive" campaign. Further, the closer the likely outcome, the more negative they will go. Similarly, there is no doubt that the ALP will go negative at almost every opportunity - as have every Opposition in my lifetime. That's modern politics. I hate it with a passion but it is beyond idealistic to expect either party to elevate themselves above rank negativity and sniping.

 

[Fatcat08]

Yep modern politics is all about yelling about what the other person hasn't done or has done wrong, rather than what you'd actually do to make it better. It's piss poor from all sides and gives people little idea about whether either side has any idea or plans actually moving forward, whether they do or not.

I won't even get into my cynicism about the effectiveness of the political system as a whole and the incessant short term thinking that has dominated modern politics. Think i'll go back to watching us whip india.

 

[Chezzalenko Reborn]

Labor can learn a lot from the Abbott.... Just say no and say things will be better under them..... just don't tell the rest of us until after we've voted for the ALP because they have to be better then the other guys.

I think like many, I'm sick of the big two parties and I have been reaching out for an alternate (like it will make a difference anyway), but even the smaller micro parties piss me off.

I can't take the Greens seriously. They are there to make noise, cry foul but wouldn't trust them to run a Neighbourhood Watch meeting let alone any form of government.

The Liberal Democrats lost me the second they suggested Australia would be better with relaxed gun laws.

The Australian Sex Party.... WHAT?! Keep it in your pants, or at least in your house where it doesn't have to impact anyone else. That is my view.

 

[dlanod]

The Australian Sex Party.... WHAT?! Keep it in your pants, or at least in your house where it doesn't have to impact anyone else. That is my view.

That's also their view - their policies are generally about getting the government out of your bedroom rather than getting themselves into everyone else's.

 

[Chezzalenko Reborn]

Well, that shows me for opening my mouth about politics again

 

[James North]

As long as the Ashgrove electors take the baseball bats to the unmitigated liar that is Can doooooooooo.

I've got a baseball bat, but it's too good to waste on a face.

 

[wantok]

Surely you don't believe that.

Again, this is not a partisan comment but there is no way the LNP will run a "positive" campaign. Further, the closer the likely outcome, the more negative they will go. Similarly, there is no doubt that the ALP will go negative at almost every opportunity - as have every Opposition in my lifetime. That's modern politics. I hate it with a passion but it is beyond idealistic to expect either party to elevate themselves above rank negativity and sniping.

What I meant by positive campaign is that they will accentuate the gains they have made in fixing the significant problems they inherited and will not specifcally play the woman . Accentuating those achievements will of course require some reminders of the legacy and those who caused the problems. Labor/Unions will likely fall into the trap of focussing on Newman again. Having failed to prove any corruption against Newman they will now focus on perceived personality flaws. The he's divisive and Qlder against Qlder stuff. That will work to the extent that it will be preaching to the converted and bring back those that left the comfort of the Labor family. This reminds me so much of the absolute hatred Labor had for Joh. It was so intense that it over powered rational thought. Labor was going nowhere until Peter Beattie did a fine job of reorganisation and restocking with some better quality candidates. I will never forget attending a Labor function with my father in the 70's. He who was being wooed as a Labor candidate because of his high local profile. The highlight of the night was when they wheeled out a dartboard with Johs face on it and awarded prizes of free beers to those that could land a dart on his nose. The real problem wasn't Joh, the problem was them but they couldn't see it because of the hate. Our flirtation with Labor ended that night.

 

[JasperBeardly]

I won't even get into my cynicism about the effectiveness of the political system as a whole and the incessant short term thinking that has dominated modern politics. Think i'll go back to watching us whip india.

Lol. For some reason this made me remember Bill Hicks' 'Go back to bed America' bit.

 

[James North]

The real problem wasn't Joh, the problem was them but they couldn't see it because of the hate.

Nah I think the problem was Joh, wasn't it?

 

[Hollow Knight]

The highlight of the night was when they wheeled out a dartboard with Johs face on it and awarded prizes of free beers to those that could land a dart on his nose. The real problem wasn't Joh, the problem was them but they couldn't see it because of the hate. Our flirtation with Labor ended that night.

Wow, a picture on a dart board. Brutal.

Kinda makes all those anti-Apartheid protesters who had the everloving s**t beaten out of them by police to the point where jumping off the Spring Hill cliffs and breaking their legs in the process to avoid the onslaught look completely insignificant doesn't it?

I am not sure I could possibly find anything of value in the thoughts of some who could find a picture on a dart board offensive relative to the vile s**t that went on on a daily basis under the Bjelke-Petersen regime. If you can relativise that fascist's legacy down to "not a problem" then I can see why the Can Do era is a gentle stroll through a dewy spring meadow for you.

It is my observation that even the most ardent Tory supporters these days seemingly can't stomach a full pardon of the Peanut Farmer's political legacy. The most they can seem to cough up is "he put us on the map", "he stood up to the unions" and "he got the state moving". There is always an awkward hush when the conversation veers towards human rights or corruption.

I fully expect this thread to have a bit of push and shove but in almost all cases be ultimately underwritten by a facet of respect and civility regardless of preference. But anyone who pines for a return to the Joh Bjelke-Petersen era can go and play in traffic for all I care. The Queensland political equivalent of holocaust denial.

 

[wantok]

Wow, a picture on a dart board. Brutal.

Kinda makes all those anti-Apartheid protesters who had the everloving s**t beaten out of them by police to the point where jumping off the Spring Hill cliffs and breaking their legs in the process to avoid the onslaught look completely insignificant doesn't it?

I am not sure I could possibly find anything of value in the thoughts of some who could find a picture on a dart board offensive relative to the vile s**t that went on on a daily basis under the Bjelke-Petersen regime. If you can relativise that fascist's legacy down to "not a problem" then I can see why the Can Do era is a gentle stroll through a dewy spring meadow for you.

It is my observation that even the most ardent Tory supporters these days seemingly can't stomach a full pardon of the Peanut Farmer's political legacy. The most they can seem to cough up is "he put us on the map", "he stood up to the unions" and "he got the state moving". There is always an awkward hush when the conversation veers towards human rights.

I fully expect this thread to have a bit of push and shove but in almost all cases be ultimately underwritten by a facet of respect and civility regardless of preference. But anyone who pines for a return to the Joh Bjelke-Petersen era can go and **** themself with a chainsaw for all I care. The Queensland political equivalent of holocaust denial.

You would have fitted in well in 70's Labor. To resort to a dismissive and abusive reply is poor form. I did not say I agreed to all the excesses of the Joh era. I was simply making the point that Joh was not the real reason that Labor spent so much time in opposition in that era. It was the failure of Labor to present a viable alternative. Labor did not make any inroads until Beattie and Murphy set about reforming the party. Just as Campbell Newman is not the reason that Labor was obliterated at the last election. It was their own actions. They will need to learn from that but I fear do not appear to have got past the denial stage. I'll let you ponder that and assure you that to promote a contrary position to yours does not necessarily make one a Holocaust Denier or an Apartheid Apologist or Fascist.

 

[Hollow Knight]

You would have fitted in well in 70's Labor. To resort to a dismissive and abusive reply is poor form.

To be fair, only 10 percent was abusive, and it was for effect. That era of Queensland's history is not to be looked back upon with misty eyes. relativised or downplayed with humour - anyone who does so should be held in contempt. PS. your original post yesterday was dripping with implied condescension as well so let's just skip the grandstanding.

I was simply making the point that Joh was not the real reason that Labor spent so much time in opposition in that era. It was the failure of Labor to present a viable alternative. Labor did not make any inroads until Beattie and Murphy set about reforming the party. Just as Campbell Newman is not the reason that Labor was obliterated at the last election. It was their own actions.

The gerrymander certainly helped. I'm sure you'll bring up the fact that it was introduced by Labor but that doesn't change the fact that Labor comprehensively outpolled the Nationals in several elections in popular vote and individual seats only to be dudded out of government by the malapportionment. Simplifying it to Labor failing to provide a viable alternative back then is a bit revisionist in the circumstances.

They will need to learn from that but I fear do not appear to have got past the denial stage. I'll let you ponder that and assure you that to promote a contrary position to yours does not necessarily make one a Holocaust Denier or an Apartheid Apologist or Fascist.

If you think your "Labor isn't presenting a viable alternative now" statement is "contrary" to my view, you obviously didn't read what I posted yesterday. Regardless, I remain suspicious to the core of anyone trying to rewrite or downplay a very dark time in Queensland's history. I didn't call you a fascist or apartheid apologist by the way. I probably implied that you are a fascist apologist and an apartheid apologist apologist though. I don't feel the compulsion to retract at this point.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Enough to make a good Tory weep tears of nostalgia.

What an era.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2011/08/08/3288495.htm - (NSFW: Boobage).


BONUS TRACK:

 

[Hollow Knight]

The events in Paris... really troubling.

The cartoon isn't exactly sparkling wit but that is not the point. Freedom of expression is freedom of expression.

Rest in peace to the journalists and the police.

This is going to ignite a powderkeg of racial, religious and ethnic tension that is bubbling all through Europe right now. It's going to get seriously ugly.

 

[POBT]

What I meant by positive campaign is that they will accentuate the gains they have made in fixing the significant problems they inherited and will not specifcally play the woman . Accentuating those achievements will of course require some reminders of the legacy and those who caused the problems.

OK, so you do believe it.

They may not "play the woman" but that is very different from running a positive campaign. And every government seeks accentuate their achievements in government. That's kinda the advantage of incumbency - you get to do s**t and then brag about the s**t that you've done. Just as the advantage of Opposition is to be able to highlight all the s**t that has gone wrong and blame it on the incumbents. (Note the theme is both sides talking s**t)

Perhaps the LNP won't resort to the levels of the last ALP election campaign where they went after Newman and anyone connected to him. I'm quite happy to agree that that was a disgraceful and grubby campaign. But that set a new low mark and beating that effort should not somehow be seen as running a virtuous election campaign.

No side of politics is better than the other in campaign terms. They'll both take whatever advantage they can get. And I'll argue until I'm blue in the face with anyone with clearly partisan views who tries to pretend that either party is somehow morally superior than the other. Because, IMO, people who are blinded by their own partisan views lack or refuse to utilise the ability to think critically. It becomes no better than supporting a footy club and I think democracy should be much more than cheerleading.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

Assuming you are one of them... feel free to discuss the fact that net debt under Newman's LNP has risen from 28 billion to 42 billion. No floods, no GFC... what are they doing?

But you can bet that whatever the LNP have done, that they'll imply it would be worse under Labor. Seems to have been a motto of theirs for the past 5 years on a national scale.

It won't be an earth-shattering or unique claim that modern politics leaves me cold. However, I know which way I'll be voting and for the first time in my life it will be a negative vote. That is I'll be looking to vote someone out, rather than in. It's a shitty frame of mind and I'm not proud of it - I've always voted how you supposed to - my assessing your local candidates and voting accordingly. In fact, my local LNP sitting member seems a good egg. This means that I've voted for at least 4 parties in the past. But I cannot in good conscience support the current government. Last year I was exposed to some of our MP's and, sure, I didn't have a high opinion of politicians going in, I found that on the whole their arrogant and uneducated statements were enough to turn me right off their party.

Edit: Did I see David Hinchcliffe's name mentioned? There was a politician who deserved respect. I thought he was a successful (relatively-speaking) artist.

 

[Skoob]

What upsets me most, is not what the LNP does, or how they go about it, it is that there seems to be enough like minded people, who believe their ethics are okay, to elect such governments.
I mean, stuff they do makes me angry, but not surprised, each party has their own schtick. It is the fact that the apparent majority either agree or don't care enough to disagree. To control then remove an independent watchdog, or bypass the usual channels to install your own handpicked, underqualified chief justice, to make cuts in funding for those who can least afford it while giving yourselves an obscene pay rise? All these things are morally corrupt. And what is the positive argument? We will reduce our dept and return the state to a AAA credit rating? We slipped to AA+ for #*%@ sake. And how is that return to AAA going, with 7% unemployment?
I'm not saying the other side of politics is virtuous, nor without their own corrupt members, but where's the balance? How does a majority of the public think the goings on of this government are okay? I am more concerned with the attitudes of the populous than the actions of the governments right now. It seems that most Australians place more importance on saving money and keeping foreigners out. (And while the government may reduce debt, the public as individuals certainly won't be saving money) I just find it such a strange mindset to insist the less able have to give up in the interest of reducing debt, all the while making rules to benefit the more wealthy/able. How can there be so many who think this way?

 

[POBT]

The problem with the "how can people vote for Campbell when he has done X, Y and Z" is that you can apply the same argument to "how can you vote in a party which will then place a bunch of Union hacks into senior executive positions?" Or "how can you vote in a party which struggles to work with business because of its union influences?". It really does depend on your perspective and what is important to you. I get that accountable government should be important to everyone but I've seen some flagrant abuses of that from both sides of politics - it is just that the LNP's have been a bit more overt (perhaps driven by inexperience in governing?)

I describe myself as a "small l" liberal with a strong social and environmental conscience. I believe in appropriate sized government which stays out of private business and lives unless there is a driving public interest for intercession - and social and environmental issues are two areas where I think regulation is vital. I could be a voter that the LNP could woo with the right policy platform - a policy platform which would be consistent with the Liberal Party's historical raison d'être. But that would mean dropping the conservative elements of their policy platform which I cannot, in all good conscience, support.

So that guides my voting. But it doesn't sway my analysis. I think this LNP government made some serious errors - but so do just about every new government. I tend to think there's been an improvement though, particularly in the last six months. Whether that is a temporary pause to their "reform" agenda or they have learned a more consultative form of government, I couldn't say. Cynically, I suggest it could be the former but there's no doubt in my mind that their first approach was not going to lead to a long term in government.

 

[Skoob]

The problem with the "how can people vote for Campbell when he has done X, Y and Z" is that you can apply the same argument to "how can you vote in a party which will then place a bunch of Union hacks into senior executive positions?" Or "how can you vote in a party which struggles to work with business because of its union influences?". It really does depend on your perspective and what is important to you. I get that accountable government should be important to everyone but I've seen some flagrant abuses of that from both sides of politics - it is just that the LNP's have been a bit more overt (perhaps driven by inexperience in governing?)

I describe myself as a "small l" liberal with a strong social and environmental conscience. I believe in appropriate sized government which stays out of private business and lives unless there is a driving public interest for intercession - and social and environmental issues are two areas where I think regulation is vital. I could be a voter that the LNP could woo with the right policy platform - a policy platform which would be consistent with the Liberal Party's historical raison d'être. But that would mean dropping the conservative elements of their policy platform which I cannot, in all good conscience, support.

So that guides my voting. But it doesn't sway my analysis. I think this LNP government made some serious errors - but so do just about every new government. I tend to think there's been an improvement though, particularly in the last six months. Whether that is a temporary pause to their "reform" agenda or they have learned a more consultative form of government, I couldn't say. Cynically, I suggest it could be the former but there's no doubt in my mind that their first approach was not going to lead to a long term in government.

Yeah, my angst isn't necessarily driven so much by "How can you vote for Newman?", I agree the alternatives aren't great, and the differences in political leanings are always there, it is more the out & out defending of their policies & actions that concern me. The fiscal deficiencies (incompetence) of the ALP is what brought us here (couldn't run a choko vine over a shithouse). And yeah, I've already acknowledged the corruption and crony-ism that goes on in the left wing party.
I would have voted differently in the last Federal election, had Turnbull been leader in place of Abbott (hasn't his performance been disappointing though?), so I am able to think critically of Labor. As you say, POBT , it comes down to what's important, and unfortunately a reasonable balance doesn't look to be forthcoming. The ALP (or the elected representatives of) isn't extreme left at the moment. They have lost touch with the grassroots and don't have the nouse
to keep either end of the scale happy. The LNP, I would describe as extreme. The Nationals would never get my vote, as they represent a long gone era. Australians simply don't live nor rely on the bush.
So where does the balance come from? ****ed if I know. I would be happier if there were more who were undecided or at least largely disappointed in their government rather than supportive. If people were choosing Newman's government as "the lesser of 2 evils" instead of believing they a great choice to lead us forward. It is those who champion this government with pride who depress me, and I come across a few, and there are enough of them to vote them back in, as opposed to that middle ground (or so it seems).

 

[Chezzalenko Reborn]

First political related arrest of the silly season has arrived!

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...n-parody-twitter-account-20150108-12k2hm.html

Labor supporters said he did nothing wrong.

Libs saying he was aggressive and was intimidating campaigners.

I say to them both STFU and Go Banana!

 

[Skoob]

First political related arrest of the silly season has arrived!

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...n-parody-twitter-account-20150108-12k2hm.html

Labor supporters said he did nothing wrong.

Libs saying he was aggressive and was intimidating campaigners.

I say to them both STFU and Go Banana!

And there are plenty of 'campaigners' in the Libs camp.

 

[Skoob]

LNP, hehe.

 

[MSB ROYS]

Looking forward to Jan 31 already (also closer to the start of footy season...)

I don't know who are worse - the Libs/Labour waving furiously at me driving down Brunswick St everyday or the Hillsong Church waving me into a Valley car park on a Sunday...

 

[Crimso]

Get Up seems to have upset Greg Hunt over Abbot Point.

 

[Skoob]

Get Up seems to have upset Greg Hunt over Abbot Point.

Environment is so far down their list of priorities, it isn't even on their list. The environment minister should be re-badged as "The minister in charge of trying to get things past greenies"
Tried the same s**t with the Norteastern Business Park near Caboolture. State MPs put the heavies on council to relax environmental requirements and to rush through development approval.