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TheBrownDog said:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/15/pope-francis-limits-to-freedom-of-expression

All those carefully stage managed stunts to build his progressive cred and then he comes out with that dribble.

Go back to your treasure-filled basilica and rot. Just another company man.
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I think you are being a little harsh here TBD.

Yes he has stage managed his progressive 'positioning', but he is still a catholic, still religous and was never going to say other than, 'religion deserves special respect'. The fact is that even many who would describe themselves as secular still afford religion a respect it doesn't deserve and will allow all sorts of bigotry to hide behind religous veneer, I suspect it would have been too much to not expect that from the pope.

I think he is wrong, but it still counts for something that he is a whole lot less wrong than the last 35 years worth of papas.
 
TheBrownDog said:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/15/pope-francis-limits-to-freedom-of-expression

All those carefully stage managed stunts to build his progressive cred and then he comes out with that dribble.

Go back to your treasure-filled basilica and rot. Just another company man.
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“One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other people’s faith, one cannot make fun of faith.
“There is a limit. Every religion has its dignity … in freedom of expression there are limits.”

He gestured to Alberto Gasparri, who organises papal trips and was standing by his side, and added: “If my good friend Dr Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch. It’s normal. It’s normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others.”



There is the freedom to say what I want ... and there is the freedom to cop the consequences of what I say. And the providers of the consequences have the freedom to cop the consequences for providing them (eg Gasparri above might get charged with assault, transferred to West Africa, or promoted to Cardinal)
There are rules in this country limiting what I can say re certain things and people and what I inspire other people to do.

Every human has their dignity as does every race and every orientation and every body type etc ... religion has no extra special rights to protection from 'commentary' .. actually that fact that they make moral commentary as part of their very existence invites in fact almost requires external commentary/scrutiny ...
 
matwt73 said:
I think you are being a little harsh here TBD.

Yes he has stage managed his progressive 'positioning', but he is still a catholic, still religous and was never going to say other than, 'religion deserves special respect'. The fact is that even many who would describe themselves as secular still afford religion a respect it doesn't deserve and will allow all sorts of bigotry to hide behind religous veneer, I suspect it would have been too much to not expect that from the pope.
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I expected more. Genuinely.

Anyway, glad we both agree he was wrong - and that's really all I was saying. His comments are incredibly unhelpful.

Did you genuinely take umbrance at my "stage managed" comment? That was just something I said to put the "his free speech is a fundamental right except when you say something I don't like" comment in some sort of context. I didn't think calling out his "stage managed" persona would even cause the slightest offense. It felt more like stating the obvious - he clearly has a very good PR team (albeit they dropped the ball yesterday).

Regardless you can take that preamble out of my post and I don't really mind. The point is still there. That said, the "child running onto the stage" thing was the most painfully contrived and confected stunt I've seen in years - I can't believe more people didn't call them out on that, if only for the laugh.

I think he is wrong, but it still counts for something that he is a whole lot less wrong than the last 35 years worth of papas.
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Doesn't count for a hell of a lot to this former catholic, but that's just my opinion.
 
TheBrownDog said:
I expected more. Genuinely.

Anyway, glad we both agree he was wrong - and that's really all I was saying. His comments are incredibly unhelpful.

Did you genuinely take umbrance at my "stage managed" comment? That was just something I said to put the "his free speech is a fundamental right except when you say something I don't like" comment in some sort of context. I didn't think calling out his "stage managed" persona would even cause the slightest offense. It felt more like stating the obvious - he clearly has a very good PR team (albeit they dropped the ball yesterday).

Regardless you can take that preamble out of my post and I don't really mind. The point is still there. That said, the "child running onto the stage" thing was the most painfully contrived and confected stunt I've seen in years - I can't believe more people didn't call them out on that, if only for the laugh.


Doesn't count for a hell of a lot to this former catholic, but that's just my opinion.
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I didn't take umbrage at your 'stage managed' comment at all.

To be honest I suspect that we have a similar view of this pope.

He has been the most progressive pope since Vatican 2 and has appeared to engage the catholic church with the modern world. In doing so he has made the church as relevant as it has been in the last 35 years. My concern however is that that will ultimately be to benefit the church more than society. Yes having a developing world that is more tolerant, lefty progressive will be great but Would the planet not be even better off if the catholic church collapses under the weight of its own hidebound hypocrisy?

Is Francis's humanity keeping alive an institution we would be better off seeing curl up.

And with that in mind I am myself sceptical as to how much of his work is genuine and how much agenda.

What I thought was harsh, and where we come down to, is that for all the realisation that there will be pr spin stage and image management there is still a real gap between a 'progressive pope' and a 'progressive', and I think this might be one of those occassions where we see that divide.
 
matwt73 said:
What I thought was harsh, and where we come down to, is that for all the realisation that there will be pr spin stage and image management there is still a real gap between a 'progressive pope' and a 'progressive', and I think this might be one of those occassions where we see that divide.
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Yeah, I guess maybe I expected too much and it turns out he is more of a rebrander than a reformer.

In fairness I know from experience how hard it is trying to change even small parts of a bureaucracy, and the Catholic church has a bureaucracy that would make an Indian public servant say "damnnnnn!".
 
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POBT said:
Saw a bumper sticker today with Newman's face printed over a swastika. I don't care what brand of politics it comes from - that ain't right.
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Insert obvious, cliched joke about no Nazis being alive to defend themself from such a slur.

Seriously though, no major party would have come up with that sticker. They probably got it off Etsy or something. Anyway, it's a free political expression, albeit tasteless and ignorant of history... correct response is to roll your eyes and drive on.
 
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Saw someone's (LNP) sign that read "Can Do Queensland", someone had textured below "too late, he's already done it".
 
whatboutbob said:
Interesting chat with 3 former LNP members - Carl Judge, Ray Hopper and Dr Chris Davis - about their former party:

http://blogs.abc.net.au/queensland/...opper-and-chris-davis-on-leaving-the-lnp.html

I also had to chuckle at a 'Anyone but Newman' tv ad I just saw spoken by Dr Chris Davis.

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Shame that interview is 'hidden' away on 612; not sure many Liberal voters tune in, (nor swingers, perhaps). Would love to see snippets of that on commercial TV.
Anyway, I actually popped in here to mention that Chris Davis ad. One of the better political ads I've seen, and a rare, tremendous, honest, dis-endorsement. Thought it was great.
 
Skoob said:
Shame that interview is 'hidden' away on 612; not sure many Liberal voters tune in, (nor swingers, perhaps). Would love to see snippets of that on commercial TV.
Anyway, I actually popped in here to mention that Chris Davis ad. One of the better political ads I've seen, and a rare, tremendous, honest, dis-endorsement. Thought it was great.
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Are you saying that swingers don't listen to am radio? Just because they're sexually adventurous doesn't mean they don't appreciate TalkBack radio. I expected better from you skoob.

Disclaimer: no I'm not a swinger
 
Fatcat08 said:
Are you saying that swingers don't listen to am radio? Just because they're sexually adventurous doesn't mean they don't appreciate TalkBack radio. I expected better from you skoob.

Disclaimer: no I'm not a swinger
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I'm sure some of them listen to am radio. Many of them would indeed listen and participate in talkback too. Just not ABC.:p
 
Surely the Pope should have brought out the ''turn the other cheek line'' that would be more Catholic than punching someone in the face for having a crack at your mum.
 
It seems that LNP leaders are on the nose with even conservative Liberals like Mal Fraser and Alan Jones as well as those who have quit the party, while Abbott appears to be at odds with most of his party, not welcome in Qld and supposedly described as "crazy" (well, his policy anyway) by Hockey & Dutton (who is an unthinking 'yes' man for whoever is leader on the day).
AND THEY'LL STILL WIN!:confused::confused:
 
Skoob said:
It seems that LNP leaders are on the nose with even conservative Liberals like Mal Fraser and Alan Jones as well as those who have quit the party, while Abbott appears to be at odds with most of his party, not welcome in Qld and supposedly described as "crazy" (well, his policy anyway) by Hockey & Dutton (who is an unthinking 'yes' man for whoever is leader on the day).
AND THEY'LL STILL WIN!:confused::confused:
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Is Malcolm Fraser a conservative liberal still? I remember reading once that if he was in politics today with his current positions they wouldn't let him in to the (liberal) party ... can't remember who said it so it could have been rubbish so feel free to enlighten me if incorrect! :)
 
I imagine Mal is probably still fiscally conservative but socially has drifted to a very small 'l' liberal.
 
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