Mega Thread Adam Goodes (Trolls will be carded - read OP!)

[MarkP]

Why apologize for the behaviour?

Well I have some suspicions but are confident that they were all in the mix;

1. She had the nations media focused on her. A 13 year old kid had the nation watching her. Can you imagine it? With people saying the most horrible things about her. Ghastly. You would do anything to make it stop.
2. She had powerful people telling her to do it. Very powerful people.
3. It was explained to her by Goodes he took offence so let's give her some credit and maybe she felt sorry for accidentally upsetting him in a way she was unaware of and did the right thing. I would like to think that is the case anyway and Goodes seemed happy with the outcome.

And also it is how these things go. The PC brigade always gets an outcome and the usually innocent or silly person gets hammered as an offering to the PC Gods.

You can land a freakin' spacecraft on a meteor millions of km's from earth and have multitudes of female friends but if you do it in a shirt that has a stylized futuristic space honey in a bikini on it with a lazer gun then you have set STEM woman back decades and are a misogamist monster. Even when a lady friend actually made the shirt for you. Being reduced to tears after a twitter and internet hate campaign against you is just a bonus to the mob.

You can be Brendan Eich and create java-script and co-found Mozilla. You can employ gays, woman, minorities the full alphabet soup of LGBTQWERTY and have every single type of person known to a Facebook gender selector working harmoniously for you with zero, yep zero, cases of harassment or discrimination leveled against you or your company but if you donated a couple of grand to a society that believes in traditional marriage years ago you are made to resign and are "shamed".

You can be a Noble Prize Award winning scientist and be over 70 years old with never a complaint against you, tell an awkward joke at a speech, and even with female colleagues on your side be exorcised from professional life.

I can go on but meh. All of the above were much more powerful than a 13 year old kid from Bumsville Victoria but they also apologized as well.

She HAD to apologise even if she had no idea of why it all happened and what she and why there is all the fuss deep down. At 13 would she have the comprehension?

Don't conflate all that with guilt.

We all know she is just a kid but she clearly grew up in a culture that made racism acceptable. Even the president of her club felt comfortable calling Adam a gorilla

You have zero knowledge of how she grew up. None. And none of her culture.You are projecting in a despicable way. It is quite disgusting actually. What if someone made sweeping generalisations about you if your sister said something silly. Or your mum. Or your neighbour. Or the guy 3 streets across. That is a horrible thing to say.

Why are you so desperate to see racists everywhere and create this whole division of victims and perpetrators?

And for all of Eddie's faults he never called Goodes a Gorilla. That is a lie. Yes a lie. You should retract. Go and listen or read the comments. You can't just make stuff up like that.

As much as I howled with laughter that one of the PC brigades champions stumbled and fumbled and made an idiot of himself, and that I truly think he is self centred egotistical maniac not necessarily good for the game, I will not call him a racist. An idiot that got caught in a stupid and awkward word diarea is all.

He is just a twit. And in no can you say he did it with "comfort". The idiot knew he screwed the pooch and fumbled out of it asap. It was excruciating, not comfortable.

She was the one that was caught but her family and her community are really to blame.

Again with the blaming and shaming and charging of things you cannot possibly know. These gross generalizations combined with your need to see racists everywhere is demeaning.

She is on record as saying she did not think ape was a racial term. I happen to believe her. She is 13.

Which is precisely why they are booing.

Disagree entirely. It is a pack mentality and whilst in that pack, like all packs, a tiny minority will be loving giving it to guy that is different, but it is hardly all or even majority racially based.

They are booing because authority figures are telling them not to and everyone around them is booing as well. Combine that with giving it to a champion past his prime that has been ripping your team a new one for years and is now reduced to awful free kick staging then yeh, I totally get it.

 

[momentbymoment]

Well I have some suspicions but are confident that they were all in the mix;

1. She had the nations media focused on her. A 13 year old kid had the nation watching her. Can you imagine it? With people saying the most horrible things about her. Ghastly. You would do anything to make it stop.
2. She had powerful people telling her to do it. Very powerful people.
3. It was explained to her by Goodes he took offence so let's give her some credit and maybe she felt sorry for accidentally upsetting him in a way she was unaware of and did the right thing. I would like to think that is the case anyway and Goodes seemed happy with the outcome.

And also it is how these things go. The PC brigade always gets an outcome and the usually innocent or silly person gets hammered as an offering to the PC Gods.

You can land a freakin' spacecraft on a meteor millions of km's from earth and have multitudes of female friends but if you do it in a shirt that has a stylized futuristic space honey in a bikini on it with a lazer gun then you have set STEM woman back decades and are a misogamist monster. Even when a lady friend actually made the shirt for you. Being reduced to tears after a twitter and internet hate campaign against you is just a bonus to the mob.

You can be Brendan Eich and create java-script and co-found Mozilla. You can employ gays, woman, minorities the full alphabet soup of LGBTQWERTY and have every single type of person known to a Facebook gender selector working harmoniously for you with zero, yep zero, cases of harassment or discrimination leveled against you or your company but if you donated a couple of grand to a society that believes in traditional marriage years ago you are made to resign and are "shamed".

You can be a Noble Prize Award winning scientist and be over 70 years old with never a complaint against you, tell an awkward joke at a speech, and even with female colleagues on your side be exorcised from professional life.

I can go on but meh. All of the above were much more powerful than a 13 year old kid from Bumsville Victoria but they also apologized as well.

She HAD to apologise even if she had no idea of why it all happened and what she and why there is all the fuss deep down. At 13 would she have the comprehension?

Don't conflate all that with guilt.



You have zero knowledge of how she grew up. None. And none of her culture.You are projecting in a despicable way. It is quite disgusting actually. What if someone made sweeping generalisations about you if your sister said something silly. Or your mum. Or your neighbour. Or the guy 3 streets across. That is a horrible thing to say.

Why are you so desperate to see racists everywhere and create this whole division of victims and perpetrators?

And for all of Eddie's faults he never called Goodes a Gorilla. That is a lie. Yes a lie. You should retract. Go and listen or read the comments. You can't just make stuff up like that.

As much as I howled with laughter that one of the PC brigades champions stumbled and fumbled and made an idiot of himself, and that I truly think he is self centred egotistical maniac not necessarily good for the game, I will not call him a racist. An idiot that got caught in a stupid and awkward word diarea is all.

He is just a twit. And in no can you say he did it with "comfort". The idiot knew he screwed the pooch and fumbled out of it asap. It was excruciating, not comfortable.



Again with the blaming and shaming and charging of things you cannot possibly know. These gross generalizations combined with your need to see racists everywhere is demeaning.

She is on record as saying she did not think ape was a racial term. I happen to believe her. She is 13.



Disagree entirely. It is a pack mentality and whilst in that pack, like all packs, a tiny minority will be loving giving it to guy that is different, but it is hardly all or even majority racially based.

They are booing because authority figures are telling them not to and everyone around them is booing as well. Combine that with giving it to a champion past his prime that has been ripping your team a new one for years and is now reduced to awful free kick staging then yeh, I totally get it.

The reason I and many other people have made a stand about this is because Australia has treated the original owners of this land appallingly. We destroyed their way of life and committed genocide to a large percentage of their population.

It's as simple as that.

AFL crowds are currently acting with incredible disrespect to one of the leaders of the aboriginal community. It has to stop and no amount of rationalizing will make it ok.

 

[J_Moore]

Or im.not racist i like Michael Long

Make no mistake - 95% of these campaigners would've been calling Michael Long a grandstanding, prima donna whinger if they'd had BigFooty accounts back in '95.

 

[Kummerspeck]

Make no mistake - 95% of these campaigners would've been calling Michael Long a grandstanding, prima donna whinger if they'd had BigFooty accounts back in '95.

Same with Winmar. Everyone says they would prefer that Goodes had been more like them and made it less about himself, and that no one would have a problem with it. Ignore the death threats and ongoing taunting even at club level and they've got a point.

 

[Kummerspeck]

Of course she could be the Grand Wizard of the under 13 KKK Australian Chapter for all I know but again making huge assumptions as to whether some 13 old kid is racist with evil intentions and declaring what she said is always rooted in racial hatred is a tad too far for mine.

Racism doesn't have to be rooted in racial hatred, bro. Dismissive, "just a bit of fun, I didn't mean it like thaaaat" racism takes just as much of a toll as blatant "I don't like darkies" style bigotry when you encounter it enough.

 

[MarkP]

Racism doesn't have to be rooted in racial hatred, bro. Dismissive, "just a bit of fun, I didn't mean it like thaaaat" racism takes just as much of a toll as blatant "I don't like darkies" style bigotry when you encounter it enough.

She said she had no idea ape was a racially derogatory term.

At 13 I believe her. And she never made those excuses.

AFL crowds are currently acting with incredible disrespect to one of the leaders of the aboriginal community. It has to stop and no amount of rationalizing will make it ok.

Leaving aside the motherhood statements vis a vis traditional owners and the like do you see how hubristic and arrogant that quoted passage sounds?

Who cares if he is;
1. Aboriginal
2. A leader of that community

They can boo him if they want and it is in no way disrespectful or racial.

When he takes the field he is just a footy player.

It is supporters of different clubs giving it to a player mainly because they keep getting told to stop.

No amount of leftist SJW angst or attempting to label stadiums full of people racist will ever make it so.

Your argument boils down to yelling racist and shut up to people.

It is common to strike that actually, particularly from the PC crowd. Most discussion on race, sex or culture in general devolves to that eventually. Doesn't make it right or valid though

 

[robbieando]

Fact is... Goodes has been left along on this issue by other indigenous people and notably other indigenous footy players. He is clearly a campaigner who has stuck in members of the "White' community who feel the need to drive a race debate. Goodes could stop and take a look at himself and look how players like Mcleod have represented his community. Not that long ago Goodes was talking about how he is out of touch with the indigenous community in terms of understanding with the history. He is clearly taking a ill informed approach towards his grandstanding indigenous campaigning which the predictable memebers of media and society are getting sucked into to

Yes, other indigenous players don't support him

You can sit this out

 

[Kummerspeck]

No amount of leftist SJW angst or attempting to label stadiums full of people racist will ever make it so.


It is common to strike that actually, particularly from the PC crowd. Most discussion on race, sex or culture in general devolves to that eventually. Doesn't make it right or valid though

So...blanket labeling of a viewpoint, good or bad?

 

[RW]

You can be a Noble Prize Award winning scientist and be over 70 years old with never a complaint against you, tell an awkward joke at a speech, and even with female colleagues on your side be exorcised from professional life.

This is a bit off-topic, but that was a shocking example of hypocrisy, especially when UK universities' largest donor is Saudi Arabia, and I don't need to mention how women are treated there. I find the PC brigade overdoes it at times, though I think casual racism can still be a problem.

 

[S120]

MarkP

Really well thought out posts and I agree with a substantial portion of it. I only just read it then so I come to discuss and question, not really to spew my opinion out (yet anyway), I'm genuinely interested in your take so don't take these questions as aggressive or with a sinister agenda.

1. What did you personally think when Goodes pointed out the Collingwood girl and of how he reacted to it over the next few days? Were you thinking he was justified in his actions or overreacting or somewhere in between or something completely different?

2. A tough question to answer in a couple of sentences admittedly, but what the hell, what did you think were the primary reasons that Goodes was booed between the Collingwood girl thing and the Hawthorn game a few weeks ago?

Again, looking to discuss, not argue pointlessly and aggressively.

 

[Lakeside Swan]

In what universe is calling an aboriginal person an ape not racist???

It usually racist based but we shouldn't automatically label it that way every time. For example, people who live in rough areas get called rock apes and scrotes. This applies to people who are Aboriginal as well as non-Aboriginals. It implies their social behaviour is very poor, I.e. Similar to Neanderthals and is appropriate IMO.

 

[Mister B]

MarkP

1. What did you personally think when Goodes pointed out the Collingwood girl and of how he reacted to it over the next few days? Were you thinking he was justified in his actions or overreacting or somewhere in between or something completely different?

This question leads in a direction that sheds light on the whole attitude of the situation. Being at the game on the night, I think it would be fair to say the global reaction was that the individual had racially abused Goodes. Over the next hour, consensus was if she had racially abused him she copped what she deserved. It was also assumed from where we were sitting that this was an older woman. (Funnily enough, while everyone in the crowd seemed to think it was an older woman, Goodes was supposed to know her age and refrain from taking any action within milliseconds). When it was revealed it was a young girl, attitudes remained similar. The language was unacceptable however, the medias insistence on showing her face was over the top. Goodes' response to this was to say she didn't know any different, she should be supported to develop a greater awareness and that it was a community issue.

Then McGuire's slip up happened and over time, people haven't liked being told that something they have been joking about for 30 years is no longer acceptable. I'd like to think it's a tiny majority of people booing for racial reasons and a whole heap of others joining in for a laugh. Sadly, it only takes one look at social media when there is a story on Goodes and it is clear that there are a much larger portion of the community that have no reason to boo Goodes other than the fact that they feel aggrieved that they are now being called out for "casual racism".

Over time we have seen the social stigma of being a smoker lead to huge drops in the numbers of young people smoking, yet there a still some that pick it up and while it may be a generalisation, the majority of youth that smoke are the children of smokers. I have no doubt the same trend will follow with racism. The majority of youth get it, are more open to other cultures and refrain from offensive speech. But there will always be the children of parents who refuse to pull themselves up and these attitudes will be passed on (knowingly or unknowingly) to the next generation.

 

[momentbymoment]

Is also worth noting that is a 13 year old girl calls an aboriginal man an ape it is guaranteed that she has been let down by her family.

It usually racist based but we shouldn't automatically label it that way every time. For example, people who live in rough areas get called rock apes and scrotes. This applies to people who are Aboriginal as well as non-Aboriginals. It implies their social behaviour is very poor, I.e. Similar to Neanderthals and is appropriate IMO.

I would say 99.999% of aboriginal men playing sport in Australia would consider it racist.

So it's probably smart to not use that term on a football field.

 

[Kummerspeck]

Then McGuire's slip up happened and over time, people haven't liked being told that something they have been joking about for 30 years is no longer acceptable. I'd like to think it's a tiny majority of people booing for racial reasons and a whole heap of others joining in for a laugh. Sadly, it only takes one look at social media when there is a story on Goodes and it is clear that there are a much larger portion of the community that have no reason to boo Goodes other than the fact that they feel aggrieved that they are now being called out for "casual racism".

Following on from this, I don't think that a lot of the people who are booing him are racist, I think a lot of them are either having a hard time accepting, or choose not to accept that their actions have consequences or results beyond what they intend.

To be honest, I also have trouble accepting that the wider football community came out of a collective amnesia after Goodes' AOTY award and speech and remembered they didn't like him because of events in 2012 and earlier, and then started booing him constantly every game. That's a different conversation, though.

 

[MarkP]

So...blanket labeling of a viewpoint, good or bad?

Absolutely good when it is factual. Totally conflating two things one which is provable time and again and (coincidentally as you will see) a typical response to label everyone that is "white" or not on side as racist - such as has been said re the whole of the supporters that boo or stadiums as it where.

You need to read up on your Alinsky and notice how the culture wars are fought. In particular go to the Godfather in Rahm Emanuel and note that you never let a good crisis go to waste.

Quod erat demonstrandum, the execrable Hillary on the recent Charlestown shooting by a deranged fool that believes the KKK or Aryan Nation isn't radical enough. Take it away Hillary, darling of the left;

"We can't hide from the truth of white privilege"

And here I was thinking an obviously mentally disturbed guy went nuts on some whacked out meds. But nope - it is about "white privilege". See the problem and why I was stating fact not making a genralisation? When a white guy does something bad it is all our collective fault. When a nutjob Islamist takes a bunch of people captive in a Lindt Cafe that is nothing to do with Islam, that is a lone wolf and we have to make up tropes like "I will ride with you" to assuage our white guilt.

But this is going way off topic so feel free to PM actual examples of a recent cultural debate not including accusations of misogamy, racism, sexism, Islamphobia or something of the kind. For bonus points show me where the "progressives" want an actual debate or discussion and not shutting down of any dissent to the new orthodoxy including banning of terms and appropriation of language.

It is a fascinating discussion but I got to answer a couple more posts and go write a ninthmond preview....ahhh footy, bring me back to fun things.

 

[Mister B]

Following on from this, I don't think that a lot of the people who are booing him are racist, I think a lot of them are either having a hard time accepting, or choose not to accept that their actions have consequences or results beyond what they intend.

To be honest, I also have trouble accepting that the wider football community came out of a collective amnesia after Goodes' AOTY award and speech and remembered they didn't like him because of events in 2012 and earlier, and then started booing him constantly every game. That's a different conversation, though.

This is very much on the mark. I wouldn't have enough fingers on my hands to count the number of people I've dealt with in the two days that fit into this category in general, not just related to the racism aspect. Stubbornness, selfishness or both, it's such a common thing now.

 

[MarkP]

MarkP

Really well thought out posts and I agree with a substantial portion of it. I only just read it then so I come to discuss and question, not really to spew my opinion out (yet anyway), I'm genuinely interested in your take so don't take these questions as aggressive or with a sinister agenda.

Never do mate. This stuff fascinates me and I love discussing it. It is hard to discuss this stuff because of the appropriation of culture and shutting down of real debate because we all walk on imaginary eggshells lest a errant phrase gets taken out of all and any context.

Without being glib and not really meaning the pun it is never black and white - plenty of greys in this topic. The attempt to get rid of the greys is what I rail against.

1. What did you personally think when Goodes pointed out the Collingwood girl and of how he reacted to it over the next few days? Were you thinking he was justified in his actions or overreacting or somewhere in between or something completely different?

Firstly the game was a powder keg simply because of the whole indigenous round thing which I am against on general principals anyway. Short answer is the AFL should not use its enormous fund base to endorse any political view or cause because they are an un-elected body of people answerable to no-one and they are putting on a show for a bunch of people with wide views - as can be seen in this thread. But they do it and they build it up and make an issue of race so here we are.

That said he was absolutely correct in calling the girl out. If he hears that yelled at him and he wants to take offence then he should of acted as he did. It is his prerogative and I support it.

It is the next few days where it all gets fuzzy BUT a lot of that was out of his hands. And that is the problem with these things - once the accusation is out of the bottle then it will take the course it did. Nothing can stop it. Not Goodes. Not the girl.

Could Goodes have handled it differently? He definitely did not realise she was 13 and though easy target - no way - it was an instinctive reaction. I don't pretend to speak for him and can't and won't and ultimately he had a chat to the kid and I would hope and think they all left on pretty good terms. Can't control the media beast though...and of course Eddie going off on his tangent just made the whole mess unbelievably worse.

2. A tough question to answer in a couple of sentences admittedly, but what the hell, what did you think were the primary reasons that Goodes was booed between the Collingwood girl thing and the Hawthorn game a few weeks ago?

He has always been booed to some extent. Gun player normally ripping teams apart. What is there not to cheer or boo depending on the colour of the strip you wear?

Absolute primary reason now is that people are talking about it and asking for it to stop. That will never work.

Secondary reasons in no order - gun player losing his powers, high profile target form AOTY and Recognise activities, he slid a lot, he stages a lot, he is black and everyone else is doing it. Certainly he stance against the girl had some cause as well. I am not blind to it.

Also take this into consideration. I was there at Stadium Australia in 2013 when Buddy took out Mal. I booed that sniping prick for the rest of the game. So did the stadium. I am sure some of the boos were rednecks having a great old racist time under cover. /shrug - it will always happen. And I booed Buddy again in later games because of it. Racist? Or not?

If it were truly just racial though every player of colour would cop it. And they don't.

Again, looking to discuss, not argue pointlessly and aggressively.

Absolutely. This is not pointless. It is important stuff.

And here is the kicker as to why this 13 year girl has been such a weird racism case.

In normal racism charges and cases the relative cultural and societal powers of the actors are reversed than in this one. Let me very mean and nasty for a moment with no intent of this being taken as my true view but to explain.

We have a guy claiming victim status in a racial vilification case that has been so affected by institutional racism in his life he has only managed to be a multiple Brownlow winner, best and fairest winner, life member of the AFL, multiple AA selected, team of the century member and multiple premiership winner, member of an Australian side, one the highest paid players in the history of the game of the game and AOTY. And pretty much the Swans most revered player loved by us supporters without any reservation.

That guy is the victim when a 13 year old girl calls him a silly name?

Goodes had the whole of the cultural and media institutions on his side. The girl had her mum. It is a big difference. People still to this day (see above) call her a racist.

See the power differential is totally reversed. THAT is why it is confusing. Normally the CEO is the guy that sacked the woman or minority did not get the promotion because of racism/sexism etc BUT here Goodes is the powerful one and is the victim.

See how the power structures are reversed? Man bites dog.

Absolutely fascinating.

 

[Number37]

Never do mate. This stuff fascinates me and I love discussing it. It is hard to discuss this stuff because of the appropriation of culture and shutting down of real debate because we all walk on imaginary eggshells lest a errant phrase gets taken out of all and any context.

Without being glib and not really meaning the pun it is never black and white - plenty of greys in this topic. The attempt to get rid of the greys is what I rail against.



Firstly the game was a powder keg simply because of the whole indigenous round thing which I am against on general principals anyway. Short answer is the AFL should not use its enormous fund base to endorse any political view or cause because they are an un-elected body of people answerable to no-one and they are putting on a show for a bunch of people with wide views - as can be seen in this thread. But they do it and they build it up and make an issue of race so here we are.

That said he was absolutely correct in calling the girl out. If he hears that yelled at him and he wants to take offence then he should of acted as he did. It is his prerogative and I support it.

It is the next few days where it all gets fuzzy BUT a lot of that was out of his hands. And that is the problem with these things - once the accusation is out of the bottle then it will take the course it did. Nothing can stop it. Not Goodes. Not the girl.

Could Goodes have handled it differently? He definitely did not realise she was 13 and though easy target - no way - it was an instinctive reaction. I don't pretend to speak for him and can't and won't and ultimately he had a chat to the kid and I would hope and think they all left on pretty good terms. Can't control the media beast though...and of course Eddie going off on his tangent just made the whole mess unbelievably worse.



He has always been booed to some extent. Gun player normally ripping teams apart. What is there not to cheer or boo depending on the colour of the strip you wear?

Absolute primary reason now is that people are talking about it and asking for it to stop. That will never work.

Secondary reasons in no order - gun player losing his powers, high profile target form AOTY and Recognise activities, he slid a lot, he stages a lot, he is black and everyone else is doing it. Certainly he stance against the girl had some cause as well. I am not blind to it.

Also take this into consideration. I was there at Stadium Australia in 2013 when Buddy took out Mal. I booed that sniping prick for the rest of the game. So did the stadium. I am sure some of the boos were rednecks having a great old racist time under cover. /shrug - it will always happen. And I booed Buddy again in later games because of it. Racist? Or not?

If it were truly just racial though every player of colour would cop it. And they don't.



Absolutely. This is not pointless. It is important stuff.

And here is the kicker as to why this 13 year girl has been such a weird racism case.

In normal racism charges and cases the relative cultural and societal powers of the actors are reversed than in this one. Let me very mean and nasty for a moment with no intent of this being taken as my true view but to explain.

We have a guy claiming victim status in a racial vilification case that has been so affected by institutional racism in his life he has only managed to be a multiple Brownlow winner, best and fairest winner, life member of the AFL, multiple AA selected, team of the century member and multiple premiership winner, member of an Australian side, one the highest paid players in the history of the game of the game and AOTY. And pretty much the Swans most revered player loved by us supporters without any reservation.

That guy is the victim when a 13 year old girl calls him a silly name?

Goodes had the whole of the cultural and media institutions on his side. The girl had her mum. It is a big difference. People still to this day (see above) call her a racist.

See the power differential is totally reversed. THAT is why it is confusing. Normally the CEO is the guy that sacked the woman or minority did not get the promotion because of racism/sexism etc BUT here Goodes is the powerful one and is the victim.

See how the power structures are reversed? Man bites dog.

Absolutely fascinating.

MP,

Goodesy (or anyone else in his position) NEVER asks to be villified. They don't get to choose who has power and who hasn't.
The entire parameters of their interaction was set by that girl.
By focusing all the discussion on the age of the offender it conveniently (IMO) ignores the real issue. Goodesy has been at pains to make that point since the start. Whether she is racist or not, is almost entirely beside the point. Whether anyone else is racist or not, is also almost entirely beside the point.
The point is not whether people are racist because whether you, or me or anyone else is racist the message is (and has always been) that the treatment of the indigenous community in this country is appalling. The message is NOT designed for the racists, they will continue to be so regardless, the message is for the majority of ordinary people that are prepared to stand up and say that is not good enough, let's do something positive to affect change. The very first step is to acknowledge the situation that we find ourselves in.
The current debate has all the hallmarks of the native title debate. The same numpties that make the current debate out to be some sort of class war, were crying about how native title would see them lose their backyards. Then, like now, their arguments are made up of complete and utter BS.

 

[S120]

Never do mate. This stuff fascinates me and I love discussing it. It is hard to discuss this stuff because of the appropriation of culture and shutting down of real debate because we all walk on imaginary eggshells lest a errant phrase gets taken out of all and any context.

Without being glib and not really meaning the pun it is never black and white - plenty of greys in this topic. The attempt to get rid of the greys is what I rail against.

Definitely. This discussion is certainly a mixture of greys and varying other colours.

That said he was absolutely correct in calling the girl out. If he hears that yelled at him and he wants to take offence then he should of acted as he did. It is his prerogative and I support it.

It is the next few days where it all gets fuzzy BUT a lot of that was out of his hands. And that is the problem with these things - once the accusation is out of the bottle then it will take the course it did. Nothing can stop it. Not Goodes. Not the girl.

Could Goodes have handled it differently? He definitely did not realise she was 13 and though easy target - no way - it was an instinctive reaction. I don't pretend to speak for him and can't and won't and ultimately he had a chat to the kid and I would hope and think they all left on pretty good terms. Can't control the media beast though...and of course Eddie going off on his tangent just made the whole mess unbelievably worse.

Agreed on these points too. Given Goodes has been called a "black, monkey lookin' c***" on the field by a very prominent player before, I don't think anyone can reasonably expect him to hear that insult (even if it wasn't racially motivated, we can agree the girl meant it as an insult) hurled at him and not react in that moment. Particularly in that round and with the talk of the week being so much about Indigenous pride and the contributions of Long and Winmar to the tone of racial discourse in the AFL.

Side note, but when I saw that girl I honestly thought she was 18 or older. It probably means little to the discussion overall but I was certainly surprised to hear how young she was. And yes, Eddie sticking his foot in it (without racist intent IMO but in remarkably foolish timing) certainly made the whole thing kick up a notch.

He has always been booed to some extent. Gun player normally ripping teams apart. What is there not to cheer or boo depending on the colour of the strip you wear?

Absolute primary reason now is that people are talking about it and asking for it to stop. That will never work.

Secondary reasons in no order - gun player losing his powers, high profile target form AOTY and Recognise activities, he slid a lot, he stages a lot, he is black and everyone else is doing it. Certainly he stance against the girl had some cause as well. I am not blind to it.

Also take this into consideration. I was there at Stadium Australia in 2013 when Buddy took out Mal. I booed that sniping prick for the rest of the game. So did the stadium. I am sure some of the boos were rednecks having a great old racist time under cover. /shrug - it will always happen. And I booed Buddy again in later games because of it. Racist? Or not?

If it were truly just racial though every player of colour would cop it. And they don't.

Certainly the booing has now become so loud and noticeable because people are being told that they shouldn't. It was mighty similar after Jobe Watson went on OTC (last year? the year before?) and admitted taking some at least questionable substances while the ASADA thing was sensitive and he got booed relentlessly. The football media tried to tell the world how they shouldn't be doing it so what did that do? Made it 10 times worse. People, particularly in our land of tall poppy syndrome and anti-authority sensibilities, do not want to be told what to do and what not to do when it comes to sport or most other things by those they perceive to be talking down to them. Similar case with the Goodes issue really. The football media and general media plays a huge role in keeping the flame lit here, they were many weeks too late in realising it, but they play a large role in exacerbating the behaviour they claim to be so against. And the next time the Swans play a big match away from home - perhaps at Subi vs West Coast in about a month's time - they will react incredulously and wonder aloud, "why won't this stop?" once again.

I do certainly think that some people are so anti-Goodes for racial reasons though. I just don't trust that every person booing is doing it out of some "* the po-lice" mentality. His being awarded AOTY and his being so vocal and up front about his views with respect to how Indigenous Australians are viewed and have been treated in the past are viewed by some to be "divisive" and confrontational. I mean just talking about the history of his relatives is divisive now? We can be stronger than that.

I just have never seen any player (of decent moral standing on and off the field, sniping and staging I don't think are moral hazards here) reacted to so vociferously by so many. I can't help but think some don't enjoy seeing the Indigenous man not being "a mere supplicant" as Waleed Aly expressed. I really think there is something to that for some proportion of people. It's nigh on impossible to prove of course, but I really feel some of that is present, just as some people are merely booing because Goodes once slid into Josh Gibson or staged for a free kick from Alex Rance. The fact that some people think he's a "cry-baby" - as was acted out by one young Norf fan the other week in the crowd - for what he did is not a good sign for those people.

All of that (staging, "sniping", being such a great player etc.) meshed together certainly does create a perfect storm, of sorts. So many things that so many people might dislike him for comes together to create a waterfall of boos.

Absolutely. This is not pointless. It is important stuff.

And here is the kicker as to why this 13 year girl has been such a weird racism case.

In normal racism charges and cases the relative cultural and societal powers of the actors are reversed than in this one. Let me very mean and nasty for a moment with no intent of this being taken as my true view but to explain.

We have a guy claiming victim status in a racial vilification case that has been so affected by institutional racism in his life he has only managed to be a multiple Brownlow winner, best and fairest winner, life member of the AFL, multiple AA selected, team of the century member and multiple premiership winner, member of an Australian side, one the highest paid players in the history of the game of the game and AOTY. And pretty much the Swans most revered player loved by us supporters without any reservation.

That guy is the victim when a 13 year old girl calls him a silly name?

Goodes had the whole of the cultural and media institutions on his side. The girl had her mum. It is a big difference. People still to this day (see above) call her a racist.

See the power differential is totally reversed. THAT is why it is confusing. Normally the CEO is the guy that sacked the woman or minority did not get the promotion because of racism/sexism etc BUT here Goodes is the powerful one and is the victim.

See how the power structures are reversed? Man bites dog.

Absolutely fascinating.

And yeh, I too find this whole thing fascinating. I don't have a giant problem with the booing. That is to say, I don't have this burning desire to see it stop, it just doesn't bother me that much. I don't boo players on other teams because I feel like a dope as an individual sitting there making that noise with my mouth like I'm some sort of a howler monkey, but I wouldn't try and force other people to stop booing without having some sort of discussion like this to find out their intentions first. The reasons behind the booing are the really interesting parts of this that I like to think about.

I think part of the reason Goodes was so hurt by it is BECAUSE he achieved all of those accolades you listed and yet still, as he sees it, someone can still lean over the fence and liken him to an ape. Of course you've made the point about her not knowing it was a racially insensitive thing to say, but as far as his reaction goes, I think he might think of himself as being stripped of the power in that sense. "I've achieved all of these great things, and yet some people still see me as some kind of animal". I'm speculating obviously, but I don't think it's beyond reason.

I wanted to ask another question to get your take on it...but I forgot it. It was good though...*...I'll post again if I remember it.

 

[Banyo Bloods]

I imagine there has probably been a few racist Swans fans over years gone by but surely a positive out of this would be seeing the treatment to one of the swans greats would hopefully change their view and look at other teams indigenous players in a more positive light.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Never do mate. This stuff fascinates me and I love discussing it. It is hard to discuss this stuff because of the appropriation of culture and shutting down of real debate because we all walk on imaginary eggshells lest a errant phrase gets taken out of all and any context.

Without being glib and not really meaning the pun it is never black and white - plenty of greys in this topic. The attempt to get rid of the greys is what I rail against.



Firstly the game was a powder keg simply because of the whole indigenous round thing which I am against on general principals anyway. Short answer is the AFL should not use its enormous fund base to endorse any political view or cause because they are an un-elected body of people answerable to no-one and they are putting on a show for a bunch of people with wide views - as can be seen in this thread. But they do it and they build it up and make an issue of race so here we are.

That said he was absolutely correct in calling the girl out. If he hears that yelled at him and he wants to take offence then he should of acted as he did. It is his prerogative and I support it.

It is the next few days where it all gets fuzzy BUT a lot of that was out of his hands. And that is the problem with these things - once the accusation is out of the bottle then it will take the course it did. Nothing can stop it. Not Goodes. Not the girl.

Could Goodes have handled it differently? He definitely did not realise she was 13 and though easy target - no way - it was an instinctive reaction. I don't pretend to speak for him and can't and won't and ultimately he had a chat to the kid and I would hope and think they all left on pretty good terms. Can't control the media beast though...and of course Eddie going off on his tangent just made the whole mess unbelievably worse.



He has always been booed to some extent. Gun player normally ripping teams apart. What is there not to cheer or boo depending on the colour of the strip you wear?

Absolute primary reason now is that people are talking about it and asking for it to stop. That will never work.

Secondary reasons in no order - gun player losing his powers, high profile target form AOTY and Recognise activities, he slid a lot, he stages a lot, he is black and everyone else is doing it. Certainly he stance against the girl had some cause as well. I am not blind to it.

Also take this into consideration. I was there at Stadium Australia in 2013 when Buddy took out Mal. I booed that sniping prick for the rest of the game. So did the stadium. I am sure some of the boos were rednecks having a great old racist time under cover. /shrug - it will always happen. And I booed Buddy again in later games because of it. Racist? Or not?

If it were truly just racial though every player of colour would cop it. And they don't.



Absolutely. This is not pointless. It is important stuff.

And here is the kicker as to why this 13 year girl has been such a weird racism case.

In normal racism charges and cases the relative cultural and societal powers of the actors are reversed than in this one. Let me very mean and nasty for a moment with no intent of this being taken as my true view but to explain.

We have a guy claiming victim status in a racial vilification case that has been so affected by institutional racism in his life he has only managed to be a multiple Brownlow winner, best and fairest winner, life member of the AFL, multiple AA selected, team of the century member and multiple premiership winner, member of an Australian side, one the highest paid players in the history of the game of the game and AOTY. And pretty much the Swans most revered player loved by us supporters without any reservation.

That guy is the victim when a 13 year old girl calls him a silly name?

Goodes had the whole of the cultural and media institutions on his side. The girl had her mum. It is a big difference. People still to this day (see above) call her a racist.

See the power differential is totally reversed. THAT is why it is confusing. Normally the CEO is the guy that sacked the woman or minority did not get the promotion because of racism/sexism etc BUT here Goodes is the powerful one and is the victim.

See how the power structures are reversed? Man bites dog.

Absolutely fascinating.

I think you need to define "claiming victim status".

Because where has Goodesy said he was the "victim"?

He's simply said he won't stand for this s**t.

And I support him on that 100%.

The fact that he's incredibly successful, accomplished and rich is quite irrelevant.

Basic human dignity is basic human dignity.

 

[momentbymoment]

Mark P
The issue (in my mind) is that people point to a range of 'reasons' for why they boo Adam, but the underlying feeling is prejudice (racism).

A very interesting study was made on one of the big orchestras in America. They had a huge misrepresentation of women (around 13%) and were asked why. Their answer was that men were simply better musicians and all sorts of reasons were given for that.

So the researchers proposed a blind audition. A group of musicians auditioned behind a curtain, so the judges could hear the music but not see the sex of the player.

53% of the women who auditioned were accepted.

Of course there is an element of people following like sheep and having a laugh, but this issue has traction because there is a feeling that is deeper than that. It's called racism.

We have seen this prejudice at work throughout history and it has been a huge driver in Australian society (remember the white Australia policy?).

It's time for it to stop.

 

[swansfan51]

Moving on from the SJW mass debating for a moment: there is a short Goodes piece on the AFL site today where he discusses how a 3rd premiership drives him, and he could very well play on in 2016.

His improvement in form over the past month or so has been one of our more significant changes.

 

[Superstar swan]

Moving on from the SJW mass debating for a moment: there is a short Goodes piece on the AFL site today where he discusses how a 3rd premiership drives him, and he could very well play on in 2016.

His improvement in form over the past month or so has been one of our more significant changes.

If he plays on,you would hope it is for minimum coin and he understands that he is no longer an automatic selection. I love goodes if he is getting 10 touches a game next year,he and the club understand it is probably time to give a young kid his shot

 

[S120]

If he plays on,you would hope it is for minimum coin and he understands that he is no longer an automatic selection. I love goodes if he is getting 10 touches a game next year,he and the club understand it is probably time to give a young kid his shot

Only if there's a young kid who takes it from him. If he does what he did in September last year in September this year, I wouldn't be crying if Goodes goes again. I suspect he won't, but a kid has to show that he's the better man for that spot before Goodes is dropped. Heeney showed that Longmire is prepared to make Goodes or sub or let him play reserves if someone comes around playing better than him.