Administration - The AFL v NRL *Moderator Approved* - Rules in OP

[Ned_Flanders]

Considering i lived in Canberra for quite a number of years, and even went to school there, i think i know a manufactured city with little soul when i see it, compared to many other cities i have lived in.

Couldn't give a stuff about your list.

So because you didn't like it, the joint should be nuked?

Plenty of people like Canberra, and the surrounding areas. Your attitude is as bad as those who think the only good part of Australia is a few square km's around the harbour bridge

 

[The_Wookie]

Read through the thread - I have provided 3 including the Titans, Storm and most recently the Raiders.

Other than the raiders, these go back three years or more. from - http://www.footyindustry.com/?page_id=182

In 2008, the Telegraph sent some observers down to a Rabbitohs game at ANZ Stadium to check the attendances. The Telegraphs observers came up with a figure of 7,522 – the Rabbitohs later reported the crowd at 9,827. Crowd figures were then counted by the hosting club.

The Rabbitohs explained the crowd discrepancy away by saying that the Telegraph didnt have observers at unticketed gates for corporate areas, as well as stadium and club staff and officials.

In an emailed response to the Telegraph, the club said

“There were un-ticketed guests who entered via a staff gate that appear to have missed your scrutiny. Added to this are groups such as club staff, stadium staff, media, officials etc. who haven’t been counted by The Daily Telegraph clickers.”

On June 1, 2011, the Sydney Morning Herald reported that Melbourne Storm CEO Ron Gauci claimed that crowd figures were regularly inflated, and that most clubs were doing it although the Storm werent doing it in 2011.

“I believe it’s not isolated to Melbourne Storm or in fact the NRL,” Gauci said.

”It was brought to my attention that most sporting clubs do that in terms of adjusting their numbers. We made it very clear when I arrived that we would record numbers as they are presented to us as an accurate reflection of the barcode scanned at the turnstyles.

‘We record accurate numbers based on bar scans and as reported to us by Ticketek and then we’ll be able to do better year-on-year comparisons in future years.”

On July 26th, 2011, The Queensland Sunday Mail reported that there was a discrepancy between the Gold Coast Titans reported figures for all 14 of its matches, and the figures posted in the Stadiums Queensland Annual Report.

• None of the Titans’ home crowds announced at 14 games matched the attendances printed in the annual report.
• Thirteen of Gold Coast’s 14 games featured inflated attendances.
• Five matches were overstated by 1500 or more attendees. The greatest discrepancy was an extra 2209 fans for the Titans’ home clash against Newcastle Knights in 2010.
• Brisbane Broncos‘ crowd figures at 11 games were identical to those in the annual report.
• Nine of North Queensland Cowboys‘ 12 games matched crowd figures in the report. Surprisingly, the club twice underquoted crowds.

The Titans blamed faulty scanners at the ground.

“The discrepancies of between as little as 27 at one game and as high as 2209 at another have come about because there are issues with the equipment that scans the number of people in the venue,” the club spokesman said.

“There was even one instance where the Skilled Park figure was actually higher than the Titans figure. We believe that Skilled Park and its contractor are working to rectify the discrepancies.”

On April 7th, 2014, ACT Sports Minister Andrew Barr claimed that sports crowds in Canberra were exaggerated in the past.

I think the crowd figures have been inflated in previous years, often by 2000,” Barr said.

“If you were to go back and look at what the actual numbers were before the inflation of numbers, it wouldn’t reflect as much of a downward trend that people might think

Raiders CEO Don Furner said the discrepancy was likely to be in the hundreds.

“In years gone by, the scanners didn’t pick up the junior passes and the members are a sold seat, so there used to be a factor but no way [was it 2000]. The scanners now pick up everything, so we’re more confident everything gets picked up. There’s a lot less they allow us to put on top.”​

References

• June 26, 2008 – Souths Dodgy Crowd Figures – The Telegraph
• June 1, 2011 – Storm CEO claims crowd figures inflated – SMH
• July 26, 2011 – Skilled Park ticketing error reveals Gold Coast worse than thought – Sunday Mail
• Apri 7, 2014 - Canberra sports crowds inflated in the past – Canberra times

 

[Aucklander]

Even the Canberra article says "in previous years"

 

[Rob]

The STV averages seem to be really encouraging for the AFL. Gone are the days where Roy Masters and others would bleat that the NRL has 80 of the top 100 highest audience games. The NRL are still in front marginally in this area although I think that is more to do with the AFL having superior FTA coverage and thus the penetration rate for Foxtel in the AFL states (which has no doubt climbed) still not at the level it is in NSW/QLD.

It's more because Fox show all games live so usually 3 games a week are up against other games which split the audience. No NRL game on Fox is up against another one.

 

[fabulousphil]

Even the Canberra article says "in previous years"

History repeats, you can only predict on form, and RL has form, very good form in fact.

You really should pay attention to that old NZ band Split Enz.

History never repeats, i tell myself before i go to sleep.

 

[Kwality]

Which is amazing given the NRLs heartland metro population is around 7.5m and the regional about 4m

Where you been?

 

[The_Wookie]

History repeats, you can only predict on form, and RL has form, very good form in fact.

You really should pay attention to that old NZ band Split Enz.

Histroy never repeats, i tell myself before i go to sleep.

Times and people change. You may only be able to predict on form, but form from 3 years ago? Rubbish. Take that down to a bookie and see what odds you get. Theres been big changes at league since 2011.

 

[Aucklander]

Times and people change. You may only be able to predict on form, but form from 3 years ago? Rubbish. Take that down to a bookie and see what odds you get. Theres been big changes at league since 2011.

Meh. You and I both know what's going on here.

 

[Kwality]

Meh. You and I both know what's going on here.

Are you willing/able to let us peasants in?

 

[fabulousphil]

Times and people change. You may only be able to predict on form, but form from 3 years ago? Rubbish. Take that down to a bookie and see what odds you get. Theres been big changes at league since 2011.

The more things change, the more they stay the same, the way the world works, is many things only surface years after their relevance has evapourated.

The absolute plethora of NRL games that seem to just bridge the 10k mark is extremely telling IMO.

 

[fabulousphil]

Are you willing/able to let us peasants in?

Indeed, we would all love to know.

 

[The_Wookie]

The more things change, the more they stay the same, the way the world works, is many things only surface years after their relevance has evapourated.

The absolute plethora of NRL games that seem to just bridge the 10k mark is extremely telling IMO.

if that was the case, then the eagles and freo wouldnt exist, the VFL would still be solely in Victoria, we would still have origin. All of these things took place since the advent of our independent commission in 1985. The NRL finally have their own, and only a hardcore anti NRL man would believe that things wouldnt change.

Not to mention changes that had to have happened since these initital reports in 2008 and 2011 or we'd be seeing repeat offenses reported. Stadiums QLD and Venues NSW produce annual reports and its very easy to back check the data being reported by the NRL.

Are you willing/able to let us peasants in?

Indeed, we would all love to know.

We've got people arguing against the NRL with little to no evidence, and what little evidence they have is a little dated, to backup their assertions - Including Phil, who apparently believes that Canberra is stuck in 1927, and more recently that things cant change - they did it this way in the past, it must always be this way.

 

[fabulousphil]

if that was the case, then the eagles and freo wouldnt exist, the VFL would still be solely in Victoria, we would still have origin. All of these things took place since the advent of our independent commission in 1985. The NRL finally have their own, and only a hardcore anti NRL man would believe that things wouldnt change.

Not to mention changes that had to have happened since these initital reports in 2008 and 2011 or we'd be seeing repeat offenses reported. Stadiums QLD and Venues NSW produce annual reports and its very easy to back check the data being reported by the NRL.




We've got people arguing against the NRL with little to no evidence, and what little evidence they have is a little dated, to backup their assertions - Including Phil, who apparently believes that Canberra is stuck in 1927, and more recently that things cant change - they did it this way in the past, it must always be this way.

When did i ever say that ?.

My assertions that RL has slipped in Sydney is backed up by EX NRL club presidents .... not good enough for you ?.

For decades we have been witnessing a corrosion of Leagues traditional support base, which was historically strongest in the now declining blue collar work force.

Nowhere has the decline in the traditional League heartland been more apparent than in the Sydney junior leagues, which have historically been the big nursery for the senior clubs.
When I became President of the North Sydney Bears in the early nineties, I was struck by the decline in the number of teams in the district since I played North Sydney Juniors. But since then there has been a further drop of about twenty five per cent in the number of teams for above 15 year olds. In my playing days there were dozens of teams then playing for such clubs like Mosman Collegians, and my old club Crow’s Nest, which have both totally disappeared. Now there is very little junior league played south of Chatswood.
And this trend cannot be dismissed as being simply the result of the gentrification of the formerly working class suburbs of Sydney’s lower north shore.

There has also been a fall in the number of junior clubs in heartland of the western suburbs. For example, in the 1970’s the Penrith district boasted 32 junior league clubs. It now has 22. **

http://sportsbusinessinsider.com.au...-pokie-politics-and-parental-angst-take-toll/

** Penrith junior league now has 21 clubs.

 

[WagonBang]

Oh without a doubt. It's blatantly obvious that nrl clubs still fudge their crowds. In some rare cases the crowds are just so low they can't fudge them above 10k. We're talking about the 2nd biggest comp here with clubs that have existed for decades that are on par with A-League clubs. Embarrassing.

Just to compare the A-League clubs (season gone) with the NRL (to date) home averages in the competing states.

Victoria
Melbourne Victory (13) - 21,808
Melbourne Storm (4) - 12,625
Melbourne Heart (14) - 9,799

NSW/ACT
South Sydney (3) - 29,577
Parramatta (4) - 23,711
Sydney FC (14) - 18,682
Newcastle Knights (3) - 18,382
St George Illawarra (4) - 16,388
Western Sydney Wanders (13) - 14,860
Wests Tigers (3) - 14,276
Canterbury-Bankstown (3) - 14,037
Sydney Roosters (3) - 13,675
Manly Sea Eagles (5) - 12,506
Newcastle Jets (14) - 11,949
Cronulla Sharks (4) - 11,887
Penrith Panthers (5) - 10,729
Canberra Raders (3) - 10,032
Central Coast Mariners (14) - 9,398

Queensland
Brisbane Broncos (3) - 36,231
Brisbane Roar - (14) - 14,957
Gold Coast Titans (3) - 14,014
North Qld Cowboys (3) - 12,019

Other Areas
New Zealand Warriors (3) - 19,689
Adelaide United (13) - 11,225
Perth Glory (13) - 9,418
Wellington Phoenix (13) - 8,202

Memberships are also interesting. Melbourne Victory boasted 22,021 with only the Broncos (26,679) and South Sydney (29,196) out doing them. Wanderers have 16,904 members while Parramatta leads the way of the West Sydney NRL clubs with 15,854 and lowest at 8,733 for Wests Tigers.

I know its early days of the NRL season with a few clubs only having 3 home games however as said above the A-League is heading into its 10th (Heart 5th, WSW 3rd) season and already theres 5 clubs with larger average crowds then NRL teams. Is the sporting landscape is changing up north in New South Wales? Is TV killing attending live NRL games? Will the NRL wanting to use SFS and ANZ in NSW only kill the game?

 

[Stewies Power]

When did i ever say that ?.

My assertions that RL has slipped in Sydney is backed up by EX NRL club presidents .... not good enough for you ?.

For decades we have been witnessing a corrosion of Leagues traditional support base, which was historically strongest in the now declining blue collar work force.

Nowhere has the decline in the traditional League heartland been more apparent than in the Sydney junior leagues, which have historically been the big nursery for the senior clubs.
When I became President of the North Sydney Bears in the early nineties, I was struck by the decline in the number of teams in the district since I played North Sydney Juniors. But since then there has been a further drop of about twenty five per cent in the number of teams for above 15 year olds. In my playing days there were dozens of teams then playing for such clubs like Mosman Collegians, and my old club Crow’s Nest, which have both totally disappeared. Now there is very little junior league played south of Chatswood.
And this trend cannot be dismissed as being simply the result of the gentrification of the formerly working class suburbs of Sydney’s lower north shore.

There has also been a fall in the number of junior clubs in heartland of the western suburbs. For example, in the 1970’s the Penrith district boasted 32 junior league clubs. It now has 22. **

http://sportsbusinessinsider.com.au...-pokie-politics-and-parental-angst-take-toll/

** Penrith junior league now has 21 clubs.

That's some pretty damning evidence. As people have more sporting choices in NSW, people are choosing to play different sports instead of RL.

 

[Stewies Power]

Just to compare the A-League clubs (season gone) with the NRL (to date) home averages in the competing states.

Victoria
Melbourne Victory (13) - 21,808
Melbourne Storm (4) - 12,625
Melbourne Heart (14) - 9,799

NSW/ACT
South Sydney (3) - 29,577
Parramatta (4) - 23,711
Sydney FC (14) - 18,682
Newcastle Knights (3) - 18,382
St George Illawarra (4) - 16,388
Western Sydney Wanders (13) - 14,860
Wests Tigers (3) - 14,276
Canterbury-Bankstown (3) - 14,037
Sydney Roosters (3) - 13,675
Manly Sea Eagles (5) - 12,506
Newcastle Jets (14) - 11,949
Cronulla Sharks (4) - 11,887
Penrith Panthers (5) - 10,729
Canberra Raders (3) - 10,032
Central Coast Mariners (14) - 9,398

Queensland
Brisbane Broncos (3) - 36,231
Brisbane Roar - (14) - 14,957
Gold Coast Titans (3) - 14,014
North Qld Cowboys (3) - 12,019

Other Areas
New Zealand Warriors (3) - 19,689
Adelaide United (13) - 11,225
Perth Glory (13) - 9,418
Wellington Phoenix (13) - 8,202

Memberships are also interesting. Melbourne Victory boasted 22,021 with only the Broncos (26,679) and South Sydney (29,196) out doing them. Wanderers have 16,904 members while Parramatta leads the way of the West Sydney NRL clubs with 15,854 and lowest at 8,733 for Wests Tigers.

I know its early days of the NRL season with a few clubs only having 3 home games however as said above the A-League is heading into its 10th (Heart 5th, WSW 3rd) season and already theres 5 clubs with larger average crowds then NRL teams. Is the sporting landscape is changing up north in New South Wales? Is TV killing attending live NRL games? Will the NRL wanting to use SFS and ANZ in NSW only kill the game?

I think it's the overall RL product that's hurting the NRL. With more competition from new sporting franchises in NSW, people there now have more teams to choose from in sports that they may actually prefer over RL. NRL has had its day in NSW

 

[Demonoid]

It's more because Fox show all games live so usually 3 games a week are up against other games which split the audience. No NRL game on Fox is up against another one.

Yes good point...I forgot about that. That's the trade off though with a 3 hour telecast vs 2 hours for soccer and rugby codes. You can't go back to back to back.

 

[Aucklander]

Are you willing/able to let us peasants in?

It's not like he or the support players are hiding it.

Just to compare the A-League clubs (season gone) with the NRL (to date) home averages in the competing states.

There's a very good reason the A league doesn't go head to head with the NRL, Super Rugby and AFL seasons.

 

[Kwality]

I think it's the overall RL product that's hurting the NRL. With more competition from new sporting franchises in NSW, people there now have more teams to choose from in sports that they may actually prefer over RL. NRL has had its day in NSW

The recent TV deal suggests the NRL are doing lots right & the game gets more viewers nationally than AFL footy. You are not dinkum are you?

 

[The_Wookie]

New NRL funding model will force administrators to raise their games
Source: Fairfax Media

In a three year agreement, the NRL will provide $7.55 million in annual participation payments to clubs, rising annually by $270,000. Clubs will be forced to meet minimum standards, which if not met, will result in a reduction of the funding available.

In addition, the ARLC will offer millions of dollars in incentives for clubs that excel at memberships, attendances, sponsorship and merchandise.

[In comparison The AFL provides a base figure per year, plus future funding that differs on a club by club basis. The league is also resposible for distributing revenues from signage and pourage rights held at Etihad Stadium. In 2013 this base figure was $7.19 million (up 400k on the year before), but the average club distribution was $11.6 million - West coast received 9.4 million at the bottom, and the Bulldogs received $13.2 million at the top]

West Tigers chief Grant Mayer was quoted in the article as saying

‘‘The salary cap created a level playing field from a playing point of view and I think this is the opportunity from an administrative structure to do exactly the same. Conceptionally and structurally, I think it is very innovative and very fair. I think the fact that every club has the opportunity to retain $7.55m base funding is great and the other stuff gives us all a chance to be better. I think it is going to make clubs much more consistent and much more professional in how they approach the business of running a football club.’’

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Wait the Nrl's big plan is to give the biggest clubs the most funding and actually Cut funding to clubs that don't perform?

They must be trying to fold clubs or just love bailing them out.

I can just see it now gees where crap let's look at a new membership drive or buy some new players, how much money do we have?

Let's see, oh s**t that's not good, well where clearly struggling on and off the park, in the interest of a close competitive and stable comp we should get some compensation right?

News anchor: and in breaking news last year's premiers are set to receive a much needed financial boost after posting record crowds in there undefeated back to back premiership defence.

Mean while the inept sharks have not only had their funding cut to nothing but has to take out loans as their funding enters negative numbers for continued shitness!

 

[Stewies Power]

The recent TV deal suggests the NRL are doing lots right & the game gets more viewers nationally than AFL footy. You are not dinkum are you?

The AFL's deal was still higher, and that's still without a regular Sunday night games and weekly Monday night games, plus a twilight/night grand final which greatly increase the media rights deal. Last year and this year haven't been good for nrl crowds, and they don't have a pathetic pricing scheme turning people away like the AFL does either. Worrying times ahead for the nrl, but especially in NSW.

 

[ringleader]

Considering i lived in Canberra for quite a number of years, and even went to school there, i think i know a manufactured city with little soul when i see it, compared to many other cities i have lived in.

Couldn't give a stuff about your list.

Is there any city or state in Australia that you aren't a self proclaimed expert on especially when it comes to all matters involving Rugby League?

 

[fabulousphil]

Is there any city or state in Australia that you aren't a self proclaimed expert on especially when it comes to all matters involving Rugby League?

I see you continue to play the man, and not the ball, hardly suprising really.

 

[Demonoid]

Considering i lived in Canberra for quite a number of years, and even went to school there, i think i know a manufactured city with little soul when i see it, compared to many other cities i have lived in.

Couldn't give a stuff about your list.

Have to agree with this. Canberra is a manufactured city. Now that in itself is not so bad, its clean and well laid out. But it has a highly transient population. People move here for work (as I did), but most can't wait to get out and go back to where they came from.

That is why I am a little weary about Canberra ever having an AFL team of its own. There are plenty of AFL supporters here but they all have their own clubs. I went to the Giants game in Canberra. About 8,000 people. There might have been a couple of thousands giants supporters (who I believe are footy fans who have moved here ages ago and made a home here, and have thus switched allegiances), a thousand or so for the Bullies, and the rest just people like me who need their footy fix. To that extent, the 3 Giants games work nicely.

The Raiders struggle to get crowds - and much of their support comes from Nearby Queanbeyan in NSW, and the Brumbies do OK as they are many Sydney siders who come to work here, and, working in the public service or other white collar jobs, they fit into rugby's socio economic level.