Competitions AFC Board Draft Game 2013-2014 - Retrospective

Sep 16, 2005
21,140
13,327
Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
GO YOU CROW BOYS
Righto folks, for those of you that played in last years end of season AFC Board Draft Game I'd like you post on the following over the next few weeks. Feedback will be incorporated into this years game.

What worked well? (3 points each please)

What didn't work well? (3 points each please)

What should we change? (3 suggestions, 1 primary suggestion in detail)

Drugs Are Bad Mackay?
roo2macca
AdelaideFan14
Bacon8
deaneus
Kristof
Danger in Texas
Danoz
Stripple
Freddy Bassett
Hank93
hendo8888
Jcpdragonx
FAITH
Footypie32
spexau
 
I'm definitely in again, would need to review the rules again before making a in depth comment.

I think the finals we conduct is a bit pointless, I'm happy to do the vote but leave it at that.

I think the main issue we have is running out of players at the end of the year.

The only suggestion I can think of was the drafting of non selected players when someone gets an injury.

Just think people are too disadvantaged when you have multiple players get injured. I lost about 5-6 players before the season even started.
 
May 24, 2006
76,775
149,825
Car 55
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Redbacks, Sturt, Liverpool, Arizona
What worked well? (3 points each please)
The points system works well. Is clear, simple enough but also offers a point of difference to DT/SC. The contrast with the 'gut feel' vote is good IMO. The analysis from Allefgib and deaneus throughout was great.

What didn't work well? (3 points each please)
Luck is always going to be a factor but it's too decisive. Player availability determines the results more so than any other factor. Have a possible solution below.

I actually thought the draft went too quickly this year. We shifted the window from three hours to two hours. It flew by. The "test cricket" slow burn, agonising over your pick as it creeps closer is part of the fun. Plus we need the game to fill in those dreaded football free months/weeks. Stretch it out. Savour it. Admittedly it's a fine line between it dragging out frustratingly and it bubbling away at a pleasant intensity but I would like to see the 3 hour window return.

Also the attitude of a couple of posters. A couple seemed to develop a take it or leave it attitude to the game. Participated almost grudgingly. Of course life, family, work is going to take precedence at times but IMO do it properly or not at all. NB I thought the two hour window played a role here. People didn't have time to manage their list or system, therefore there were a few who got rushed "Oh, f*** it.... I'll just pick xyz. I'm over this."

What should we change? (3 suggestions, 1 primary suggestion in detail)
I threw this suggestion out there during the season:

1. We have the initial draft over December/January followed by the initial 'gut feel' vote as we do now. We should only pick 22 players during this period and selections are limited to existing senior players as at the end of the 2014 season and players gained during the trade period (no new draftees and no rookie listed players).

2. Then in that ultra boring week off between the end of the practice games and Round 1 we should run a secondary draft. Open it up to include any new draftees, rookie listed players and of course any senior player not taken in the initial draft. Player lists need to be at 25 by the end of this draft. Posters have a minimum of three selections to take their squad up to 25 but are also able to delist players before the draft - cull any injured players, or ones you think you've made a mistake on. These posters can make extra selections to take their squad up to 25.

3. Finally, during the ultra boring Crows split round bye, we repeat the process. Posters can make any delistings they want. We run another draft, posters fill their squad back up to 25. This is the final 25 for the season.

I think this would make things fairer and reduce the luck element. It means that an ACL and and snapped achilles don't de-rail your entire season. They are only a couple of brief windows during 'down times' when the Crows aren't playing so it won't be as though the game is taking up heaps more time.

The other suggestion I had was about the game itself. I reckon it is a ripper and a good way to build relationships on the board. Can it expand to two games to include more posters? If run concurrently it would be an interesting comparison. The judging can include both sets of teams so there will still be an overall winner. I'd be happy to run one of them if people think this is worth doing.
 
Oct 1, 2011
2,599
1,399
Adelaide Hills
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Sturt, Celtics, Team Vodafone
Potential Changes
1) Mid-Season Draft

I saw this idea discussed during the season and liked it. We have a bye in the upcoming season in Round 11. During the "Bye Round", we would delist between 3 and 5 players from our 25 man squad's and then partake in a mini-draft. You can select players delisted by other teams if you wish. Draft order determined by pre-season rankings. (i.e if your team was ranked 18th in pre-season rankings, you would get Pick 1 and Pick 19, 17th gets Pick 2 and Pick 20 etc.) All of the performances of the players that you draft prior to Round 11 will count to your end of season score (Providing they are in your end of season best-22), whilst none of the performances of the players you delist will count. It was initially mentioned with the rule that no first year players can be taken in the Phantom Draft, but they can be taken with the Mid-Season Draft.

2) Optional Pick Trading
If you want to trade your Phantom Picks with someone else and both parties are happy with the trade then the trade goes through. You don't have to trade if you don't want to. Either pre-draft or pre draft and during draft, players could vote for it.

3) Captain gets double points
Explains itself.


The Pre-Season vote (in brackets) vs end of season points finish. Kinda topsy-turvy. Not one person finished where they were predicted to, but some were close.

1- BACCS (17th)
2- Allefgib (8th)
3- roo2macca (15th)
4- AdelaideFan14 (18th)
5- Drugs Are Bad Mackay? (4th)
6- Bacon8 (16th)
7- Deaneus (6th)
8- Kristof (9th)

9- Danger in Texas (3rd)
10- Danoz (10th)
11- Stripple (7th)
12- Freddy Bassett (2nd)
13- hdecure (5th)
14- hendo8888 (1st)
15- Jcpdragonx (12th)
16- FAITH (11th)
17- Footypie32 (14th)
18- Spexau (13th)

I'll add what worked well tomorrow. It's not that easy trying to find something that didn't work well. Thanks for running the game and all the time you put in with the calculations Allefgib :thumbsu:.
 
What worked well? (3 points each please)
The points system works well. Is clear, simple enough but also offers a point of difference to DT/SC. The contrast with the 'gut feel' vote is good IMO. The analysis from Allefgib and deaneus throughout was great.

What didn't work well? (3 points each please)
Luck is always going to be a factor but it's too decisive. Player availability determines the results more so than any other factor. Have a possible solution below.

I actually thought the draft went too quickly this year. We shifted the window from three hours to two hours. It flew by. The "test cricket" slow burn, agonising over your pick as it creeps closer is part of the fun. Plus we need the game to fill in those dreaded football free months/weeks. Stretch it out. Savour it. Admittedly it's a fine line between it dragging out frustratingly and it bubbling away at a pleasant intensity but I would like to see the 3 hour window return.

Also the attitude of a couple of posters. A couple seemed to develop a take it or leave it attitude to the game. Participated almost grudgingly. Of course life, family, work is going to take precedence at times but IMO do it properly or not at all. NB I thought the two hour window played a role here. People didn't have time to manage their list or system, therefore there were a few who got rushed "Oh, f*** it.... I'll just pick xyz. I'm over this."

What should we change? (3 suggestions, 1 primary suggestion in detail)
I threw this suggestion out there during the season:

1. We have the initial draft over December/January followed by the initial 'gut feel' vote as we do now. We should only pick 22 players during this period and selections are limited to existing senior players as at the end of the 2014 season and players gained during the trade period (no new draftees and no rookie listed players).

2. Then in that ultra boring week off between the end of the practice games and Round 1 we should run a secondary draft. Open it up to include any new draftees, rookie listed players and of course any senior player not taken in the initial draft. Player lists need to be at 25 by the end of this draft. Posters have a minimum of three selections to take their squad up to 25 but are also able to delist players before the draft - cull any injured players, or ones you think you've made a mistake on. These posters can make extra selections to take their squad up to 25.

3. Finally, during the ultra boring Crows split round bye, we repeat the process. Posters can make any delistings they want. We run another draft, posters fill their squad back up to 25. This is the final 25 for the season.

I think this would make things fairer and reduce the luck element. It means that an ACL and and snapped achilles don't de-rail your entire season. They are only a couple of brief windows during 'down times' when the Crows aren't playing so it won't be as though the game is taking up heaps more time.

The other suggestion I had was about the game itself. I reckon it is a ripper and a good way to build relationships on the board. Can it expand to two games to include more posters? If run concurrently it would be an interesting comparison. The judging can include both sets of teams so there will still be an overall winner. I'd be happy to run one of them if people think this is worth doing.

I love the suggestions. Happy to endorse both the time increase and the new draft rules.

With draftees included in the main draft, it's basically pot luck as to whether you snag a good rookie or a dud.
 
Nov 24, 2007
25,849
54,730
DTC Frat House
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Team Lambda Variant
What worked well? (3 points each please)
The whole thing ran very well.
Good buy-in by most.

What didn't work well? (3 points each please)
A couple of injuries and BAM you're stuffed.

What should we change? (3 suggestions, 1 primary suggestion in detail)
List of 30 instead of 25.
Mid-season draft, where we can also trade picks for players.
Two hours... a bit tricky. Three please.


Kate's got time to really get into it this year, looking forward to it.
 

Freddy Bassett

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 2, 2005
9,513
4,675
At Work
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
PANTHERS,CHELSEA
As soon as I get some time I will write my thoughts but I am certainly in again this year.. I thought last years format was the best so far
 
Sep 17, 2010
21,596
14,073
Waverley Park
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Dragons FFC
Ok so first, I didn't get a notification for this. Sucks. Second, my responses to a few of the suggestions.

Carl: (what should we change #1) what if we have a player who has scored ok in the first half then gone down with a season ending injury. If we drop them, do we lose all points they've scored to be replaced by whoever we pick up? Not sure that would work- but definitely something to discuss.

Also, I'm definitely up for making the game more interactive throughout the season and to add to to the mid season section, make that optional, and you can delist as many or as few as you want (to detriment or benefit). I also think having a max squad of 25 at any point is fine, and if we were to go ahead with the preseason draft as well, you can delist at that point as well maybe?

AF14: I finished exactly where I was expected to finish... :( 10th...

Don't agree with having captains though.
 
Potential Changes
1) Mid-Season Draft

I saw this idea discussed during the season and liked it. We have a bye in the upcoming season in Round 11. During the "Bye Round", we would delist between 3 and 5 players from our 25 man squad's and then partake in a mini-draft. You can select players delisted by other teams if you wish. Draft order determined by pre-season rankings. (i.e if your team was ranked 18th in pre-season rankings, you would get Pick 1 and Pick 19, 17th gets Pick 2 and Pick 20 etc.) All of the performances of the players that you draft prior to Round 11 will count to your end of season score (Providing they are in your end of season best-22), whilst none of the performances of the players you delist will count. It was initially mentioned with the rule that no first year players can be taken in the Phantom Draft, but they can be taken with the Mid-Season Draft.

2) Optional Pick Trading
If you want to trade your Phantom Picks with someone else and both parties are happy with the trade then the trade goes through. You don't have to trade if you don't want to. Either pre-draft or pre draft and during draft, players could vote for it.

3) Captain gets double points
Explains itself.


The Pre-Season vote (in brackets) vs end of season points finish. Kinda topsy-turvy. Not one person finished where they were predicted to, but some were close.

1- BACCS (17th)
2- Allefgib (8th)
3- roo2macca (15th)
4- AdelaideFan14 (18th)
5- Drugs Are Bad Mackay? (4th)
6- Bacon8 (16th)
7- Deaneus (6th)
8- Kristof (9th)

9- Danger in Texas (3rd)
10- Danoz (10th)
11- Stripple (7th)
12- Freddy Bassett (2nd)
13- hdecure (5th)
14- hendo8888 (1st)
15- Jcpdragonx (12th)
16- FAITH (11th)
17- Footypie32 (14th)
18- Spexau (13th)

I'll add what worked well tomorrow. It's not that easy trying to find something that didn't work well. Thanks for running the game and all the time you put in with the calculations Allefgib :thumbsu:.

How about our voting lol. 4 of the top 6 finished in the bottom 4 of the vote. We rock.
 
I like the introduction of the two extra drafts, but I don't want this game to become a full season thing where you are allowed trading and delistings at any time.

It still should remain strictly a drafting game, but it just needs some new mechanism to balance out the horrible luck people can cop.

Not sure about the extra game running concurrently though. Do you mean another 18 different players or some people double dipping Drugs Are Bad Mackay?

If we're concerned about the small time limit, having to do two picks per round will make that even harder.
 

spexau

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 25, 2007
9,582
9,474
Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
Thought about utilizing the AFL Fantasy Elite? Where you have an actual draft and can't duplicate players. Would be another way you could measure the teams against each other
 

hendo8888

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 20, 2007
6,050
3,414
Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Adelaide 36ers
I enjoyed it, and probably will go in again.

Games played pretty much is the be all and end all in the point system. 15 games from Gary Ablett probably scored less points than some spud like Jack Frost or Justin Clarke who played all 22, but basically did nothing. Yeah, that's bad luck, but it's still Gary Ablett. You'd take 15 games from him over 22 from probably 90% of the players in the league. Think that needs some adjustment.

I pretty much lose interest once the initial draft and vote is done. It's a fun way to pass time in the offseason, and some people enjoy following it throughout the year, I just look at my team, then kind of forget about it. Might have something to do with the fact half my team was out on any given week though.

I wouldn't be against a mid-season draft. To cover some long term injuries.

I don't have an alternative, but I do find the scoring and voting system a bit overly complex. From memory, with my initial vote, I did it following the scoring system, then went back and adjusted some scores to better reflect how strong I actually thought the teams were. Some teams scored highly that I didn't really think were that good, so I bumped them down and vice-versa. People should be allowed to do that if they think the scores don't reflect their thoughts after they follow the system.

For this year's draft order, can we go reverse order of the standings and you can pick what your starting pick number is? So 18th gets first pick (which they can choose pick 11 if they so desire) and so on.

For the most part I think the majority of the drafters were very reliable this year. I remember a couple people we had to wait on a few times, but as a whole. Be good if we can keep largely the same people again.

I like the player write-ups too. It's always fun when someone picks a player you've never heard of in like the 8th round (ala Brodie Grundy this year), then you find out about new players. End of the draft is always interesting. My list got so thin that I picked a guy purely on the game write-ups of the last 3 games of the season (Tom Curren).

Ideally, we'd want to run it between December and January. Have the Christmas/New year break as usual. Don't need to rush through it, but having it done by early-mid January would be ideal (with the vote done too if possible).

I'm not sure how I feel about a trading set-up. I'd probably rather we didn't. Just have it drafting and live by those choices. Otherwise you'll have people hoarding key forwards and selling them for mids later, or something along those lines. And that de-stabilises the draft a bit. But... If you get to the end of the draft and you want to adjust some of your picks, that should be allowed, but not during the draft.

Not sure how many of each thing I've covered, just throwing down some thoughts.
 
Sep 17, 2010
21,596
14,073
Waverley Park
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Dragons FFC
Thought about utilizing the AFL Fantasy Elite? Where you have an actual draft and can't duplicate players. Would be another way you could measure the teams against each other
Ultimate footy I reckon, that way we can choose the stats to fit our game.
 
May 24, 2006
76,775
149,825
Car 55
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Redbacks, Sturt, Liverpool, Arizona
May 24, 2006
76,775
149,825
Car 55
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Redbacks, Sturt, Liverpool, Arizona
Carl: (what should we change #1) what if we have a player who has scored ok in the first half then gone down with a season ending injury. If we drop them, do we lose all points they've scored to be replaced by whoever we pick up? Not sure that would work- but definitely something to discuss.
You'd lose any points of players you delist, gain any points of players you bring in. Would be a choice you'd need to make.

Don't agree with having captains though.
Agreed
 

Freddy Bassett

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 2, 2005
9,513
4,675
At Work
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
PANTHERS,CHELSEA
What worked well? The fact the points/ scoring system was set before the draft made the game clearer and fairer. Before it was really just our own opinions which just doesn't really work as shown . Some of the first year players last year were fantastic and had the right enthusiasm levels.

What didn't work? I think no one should play unless you are 100% committed until the very last pick.. Like Carl, I think it should be 3 hrs time limit and I am happy for it to drag out longer but some attitudes of not being interested after their first few picks is crap. Simply do not take up a spot that someone else would cherish and add to the game.

What should we change? I love the idea of a trade period but I have tried it before and it never works. Because when you think you have a great side capable of winning and someone else does a ridiculous trade it ruins the game. So lets keep it as a draft only game. Including no trading picks.. It's the only way to keep the game fair and equal.. I think injuries are part and parcel of the game . You draft accordingly. But I do like the idea of selecting 30 players and having a mid season draft. Everyone can cull as many players as they would like. If you don't want to drop anyone that is fine but you obviously do not get any picks. In the past the last 5 picks seemed pointless as we were only really judging on our best 22. With the new points system the last 5 picks are so crucial and I think a lot more time and effort will be required if you want to be a chance of winning. I also whilst not trying to be elitist think we should only have the one game. Make it something others watch and envy and want to be a part of. If they want to start their own game good for them. But it's the best way of protecting our game as it is only as good as the enthusiasm of every one of us. Those first 10 rounds without sounding like a complete dick is as much fun as a grown man can have playing a game. So if player x doesn't want to play next year or has commitments lets bring in a deserved player who has been waiting his/her turn for years
 

Freddy Bassett

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 2, 2005
9,513
4,675
At Work
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
PANTHERS,CHELSEA
Oh and no to Captains. It's a draft game. Lets keep it as fair and simple as possible. I don't want the guy who gets pick 1 and Gary Ablett having a bigger advantage than the guy who gets pick 18..

I'm all for mid season draft/ delistings but lets not change much else. One bad rule change could ruin the game. Any changes we make must not ruin the fairness for all.
 

Freddy Bassett

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 2, 2005
9,513
4,675
At Work
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
PANTHERS,CHELSEA
Just had one more idea that will be players being able to swap draft order. We all have an idea of where we would like to be and I'm sure it is all different . For me it would be around pick 8-10.. As it is just a change in draft order no other players will be disadvantaged. I would actually prefer pick 18 to pick 1..
 
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hendo8888

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 20, 2007
6,050
3,414
Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Adelaide 36ers
I reckon pick 4 or 5 is the worst pick to get. You don't get the absolute cream players, you don't get the tumbleturn picks (which can be a tactical advantage) and you have to wait a long time for pick 2.
Which, if we go reverse ladder order, means I get one of those.
 
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