Preview AFL Round 2 - Geelong v Hawthorn, MCG, 3:10PM Monday 9 April

[vinum coupe]

God, please don't bring in the Gil against the Hawks. Try it against an easier side. Scotty said he wanted to make a point and show everyone we weren't arrogant. And that won't happen with a C grader on one of the Hawks' dangerous forwards, I'm afraid. Another week, please.

Instead of Gillies down back, put Kelly, he knows what to do.

We have to give Gillies a chance. And with Scarlett out for 3 it is time.
He wont have to play on Buddy at all. So no probs there. And he wont stand with Rioli either.



Kelly is too vital when it comes to extracting the ball, tackling, and intercepting opposition players. Much like Ling was.

 

[muttweed]

We have to give Gillies a chance. And with Scarlett out for 3 it is time.

He struggles on VFL forwards. He's not ready.

He wont have to play on Buddy at all. So no probs there. And he wont stand with Rioli either.

I know. They've got Roughead, Gunston, Hale etc too who can all be very dangerous.

Kelly is too vital when it comes to extracting the ball, tackling, and intercepting opposition players. Much like Ling was.

Much like Scarlett is in the backline? If you want to replace Scarlo, our most important player, with a youngster, I don't see why we can't do so with Kelly. Don't forget, a lot of our forwards are pretty decent in the midfield too.

 

[muttweed]

No one can seriously expect our output to be the same as last year. It's going to be bloody hard to cover the guys we have lost especially Ottens. But I think there is enough of the old guard to cover the kids for now. Never underestimate Geelong's ability to comeback and get within a few point of winning. I think that is what has made us such a formidable team in the past, we always comeback and we never really get thrashed.

Johnson expects us to be better, so I'll take his word. He, after all, probably knows more about the club and its direction than me.

 

[CatTricks]

Kel or Smithy can both go back if need be.

 

[vinum coupe]

He struggles on VFL forwards. He's not ready.



I know. They've got Roughead, Gunston, Hale etc too who can all be very dangerous.




Much like Scarlett is in the backline? If you want to replace Scarlo, our most important player, with a youngster, I don't see why we can't do so with Kelly. Don't forget, a lot of our forwards are pretty decent in the midfield too.

Of course he is ready. He has been there 4 years !
If he can't step up and play in the seniors now then there is no hope for him.

And you're not serious about Roughead and Hale. Surely.
He wont play on them either.

Yes Kelly can play back. And yes we have kids that can play the middle instead of him. But they aren't going to tag and disrupt the opposition like Kelly and Ling do.

We've lost one through retirement. I dont think we can afford to have the other one in the backline against the Hawks. We will give up way too many centre clearances.

And then you'll really start to see a fragile backline.

If the Cats get the team selection and match ups wrong this game will be eerily similar to the 2010 prelim.

 

[Jimmy Yamazaki]

Brown's best chance would be coming in for O and Hawkins being second ruck (I know, I don't like it either ).

Gillies apparently rolled his ankle last week in the VFL so doubt he will get up to play.. Sounds like Brown may come in instead..

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Vinum, with the greatest respect, how many vfl matches have you watched (live or on the box) in the last 3 years? There are many respected posters who have, and who are being pretty honest in saying on exposed form, he's not ready. You'd do well to take note of that.
As for the fact that we have to play him, no we don't. We're not a bottom 8 side, we're not pumping games into kids for the sake of it, as Scott says, they have to earn it. The other kids are in there right now because their pre season form warranted it. Gillies didn't. That's it. Would it be good if he was in good form so we could replace tall for tall, like for like? Yeah sure, but that isn't the case.

I agree with the rest of your points though. Kel will be needed in the middle as that's where the game will be won and lost.

On last week's form you wouldn't drop any of the kids though I agree that the backline could use some stability. I'd actually play Poodle down there but they seem fairly set on him as a midfield tagger, and fair enough given he's done it well so far.

I think Scott's comments yesterday about Josh being too important to risk indicate he probably won't play. Then it becomes a question of whether they go for Brown as a tall (and whether he plays forward or back) or Byrnes for more run. Both are viable options.

 

[vinum coupe]

Oooh. Condescending. Nice.

I dont even care if he is out of form at VFL level PO.
I could not give a stuff.

The fact is that if we dont play him we wont have him next year.
Basically because we wont give ourselves a chance to see if he is up to it.
And secondly because he wont stay.

So when did you expect him to 'magically' become ready? Round 11? Or with your expert eye have you decided it is more likely to be during the 3rd quarter of round 15?

 

[romeoh]

Agree that if Gillies is right to play we have to start giving him consistent time in the 1sts. He has never really had a decent run at it-in for a game when we are short, doesn't show much, out again-seems to have been the pattern.
He either has to be given a chance to show he can develop his skills or we cut our losses and find somebody else to ultimately slot into the backline when the unbearable loss of Scarlett happens for good.
I must say I think we will be okay without him this week but my heart actually aches when I contemplate a future without Scarlett. And I don't just mean that in terms of his skilful play-I mean he has always been there, he is so embedded into the fabric of Geelong. I will miss him in so many ways.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Oooh. Condescending. Nice.

I dont even care if he is out of form at VFL level PO.
I could not give a stuff.

The fact is that if we dont play him we wont have him next year.
Basically because we wont give ourselves a chance to see if he is up to it.
And secondly because he wont stay.

So when did you expect him to 'magically' become ready? Round 11? Or with your expert eye have you decided it is more likely to be during the 3rd quarter of round 15?

I wasn't trying to be condescending, sorry if it came across that way.

I was merely trying to point to -why do you think he is ready? based on what? You're the one saying he's ready, so what is that opinion based on? I would be very surprised if you had watched him play vfl last year, and nab cup this year, and thought he was ready.

You do not care about form? Well the coaches do, particularly with fringe players, they care a lot. It's precisely why guys like Hogan aren't playing and guys like Guthrie are.

Whether he will stay beyond the year or not should have nothing to do with selection, and it doesn't. If he warrants a game he plays, if he doesn't, he doesn't.

Nothing against Gillies, that's just the reality of the situation.

 

[thejester]

Oooh. Condescending. Nice.

I dont even care if he is out of form at VFL level PO.
I could not give a stuff.

The fact is that if we dont play him we wont have him next year.
Basically because we wont give ourselves a chance to see if he is up to it.
And secondly because he wont stay.

So when did you expect him to 'magically' become ready? Round 11? Or with your expert eye have you decided it is more likely to be during the 3rd quarter of round 15?

So you're worried we won't have a player on the senior list next year who currently is struggling to perform at VFL level. Not a real convincing argument.

 

[vinum coupe]

I am concerned.
I liked what I saw at senior level 3 years ago. And for a number of reasons (no spots being one) he hasn't been allowed to fire a shot.

I dont like the idea of putting 4 years into a person only to lose them. As could have happened with West.

Some people play sport better at a higher level of competition.
For whatever reason that may be.

Maybe it's about being around team mates who you can trust to be predictable and consistent. He might be one of those guys who needs it.

But the way we're going, we'll never know.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Personally, I can see where vinum coupe is coming and I agree. He sure looked ready in 2009 when he got his chance and he was pencilled in by pretty much everyone to be Harley's long-term replacement. I don't watch a lot of VFL either, but I'd suggest that even though he's obviously playing against higher-quality players, lining up next to Enright, Lonergan, Taylor and Mackie and being able to follow their directions might make it easier for Gillies than being in a backline with a bunch of VFL list players, who rightly or wrongly, would probably look to him, as a player who has been in the AFL system for four years now, to provide them with that same direction. If he's fit, I think he's every chance to be named as a straight replacement for Scarlett.

 

[dazbroncos]

For the record ( i and im pretty sure no one cares) I didn't think PO was condescending. Stating facts sure, but not condescending.

To VC's point - Gillies has earned a chance to play. He is only 22 and one bad outing against the Hawks doesn't mean the end of his career. But he has to be tried and tried with some regularity - and this 3 week stint with Scarlo in the sin bin why not?

What I would like to see though is not have Kel or Smithy have to go back there to cover so to speak - kinda robbing peter to pay paul...

I would challenge the mids to step up and try and control the Hawthorn mids supply to Buddy et al. If they get the ball out like Freo did in the first 15 mins last game then its gona be hard regardless who it is. Overall I think that Kel and Smithy would be better suited to aiding the mids rather than camping down back.

As for Mitch Brown - let him play forward as a chop out for Hawk and Pods. I just don't see him with the body strength / size / engine yet to play KPD. I reckon with his short fast burst on the lead and his reading of the play he could hurt Hawthorn - as in surprising them - and get a few.

Go Catters......

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Personally, I can see where vinum coupe is coming and I agree. He sure looked ready in 2009 when he got his chance and he was pencilled in by pretty much everyone to be Harley's long-term replacement. I don't watch a lot of VFL either, but I'd suggest that even though he's obviously playing against higher-quality players, lining up next to Enright, Lonergan, Taylor and Mackie and being able to follow their directions might make it easier for Gillies than being in a backline with a bunch of VFL list players, who rightly or wrongly, would probably look to him, as a player who has been in the AFL system for four years now, to provide them with that same direction. If he's fit, I think he's every chance to be named as a straight replacement for Scarlett.

The problem with that theory is we have a number of guys on our list who have performed and shown improvement at vfl level despite not being surrounded by experience. Someone like Guthrie was outstanding last year despite playing in a defence that didn't have much experience and was often under siege. Even our basketballer looked capable at the level more weeks than not. So you can't really say that Gillies is only stagnating because he doesn't have good players around him when we have younger players who are showing more signs despite playing with those same players.

Look, I'm not against Gillies. Actually, I hope he makes it, because we don't have a lot of young tall defenders and it would be highly helpful for us if he did. I really hope he does make the grade, as I do with all our kids. But let's call a spade a spade, right now, if we're picking on form, he doesn't get anywhere near a game. Not just missing out, but not remotely near it. That's all I'm saying, and I think that's all that jester's saying as well. I do actually agree with vinum to the extent that it would be good to actually see what he can do before we run out of time (considering this year is probably it if he doesn't improve) but the ball's in his court on that one, he has to get his form up to a level where he gets himself that opportunity. Much as he performed well in 2009, time stands still for nobody, and it's what you do now that matters. And in the now, the coaches can't parachute Gillies into regular senior games when he's not found that form again while guys like Guthrie and Horlin Smith and even Cowan when he's fit are playing far better.

As for the reason this discussion has come up, it's probably likely the ankle injury will rule him out anyway.

 

[you pick one]

The way I see it he's not even in the frame,doesn't have the form to force his way in to the side,and is miles behind the three out at the moment that play down back Scarlo,J Hunt and Wojo add to that the fill in options like Kelly,Corey and at best he is probable Scotts 6 or 7 choice for the last spot this year. And he's not going to gift him a game just because he happens to be the right hight at the expense of of the kids who are preforming well as they need every game they can get to.

 

[Grizzly_82]

Been hearing Bartel might not play? Any truth in this?

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

The problem with that theory is we have a number of guys on our list who have performed and shown improvement at vfl level despite not being surrounded by experience. Someone like Guthrie was outstanding last year despite playing in a defence that didn't have much experience and was often under siege. Even our basketballer looked capable at the level more weeks than not. So you can't really say that Gillies is only stagnating because he doesn't have good players around him when we have younger players who are showing more signs despite playing with those same players.

Sure you can. Different players respond different ways. From what I've seen, they want Gillies to be a traditional lock-down defender, which isn't really what I've seen from Guthrie so far; he plays more as a creative half back/utility who sets up the play. Sure, Bathie is also a lock-down defender, but he's quite a bit older than Gillies and he's Lonergan's size. Gillies certainly didn't set the world on fire in the NAB Cup, but I'd argue that whenever he has been given a chance in the real stuff (besides his selection as the sub in Round 15 last year, a decision that I don't think I'll ever understand), he has acquitted himself quite well.

Rather than not being able to say it, to me it seems to be a fair call to make that Gillies could possibly be better suited as the fifth or sixth defender against AFL-level opposition, than he is as the first or second defender against VFL-level opposition. Again, I don't see a lot of VFL, but Brown for Scarlett seems like a desperate, Gamble-esque move. by all means, bring Brown in, but I'd be surprised if it was as a straight swap for Scarlett.

 

[muttweed]

Been hearing Bartel might not play? Any truth in this?

Source?

If he's injured or something, I'm sure he'd do everything he could to be match fit.

He loves playing the Hawks

 

[Grizzly_82]

Source?

If he's injured or something, I'm sure he'd do everything he could to be match fit.

He loves playing the Hawks

Nah I doubt what I've heard but just wanted to see if anyone else heard anything simmilar .

I'm dismissing this one , and telling the source to go **** himself in the process

 

[you pick one]

but Brown for Scarlett seems like a desperate, Gamble-esque move. by all means, bring Brown in, but I'd be surprised if it was as a straight swap for Scarlett.

That's exactly how I would see Gillies comeing into the side.

I suggested Brown earlier in the thread to give us 3 genuine tall forwards in the event of the Hawks playing Roughead,in the hope he would then be forced to play down back where he can't hurt us on the score board.

 

[The rabbi]

Is Gillies the only option that we have to take Scarlett's place in defense?

What do you think the chances are the the SC will take a punt on a young recruit like Jordan Murdoch?

I am aware that he has not got the body development yet but he is very quick.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Sure you can. Different players respond different ways. From what I've seen, they want Gillies to be a traditional lock-down defender, which isn't really what I've seen from Guthrie so far; he plays more as a creative half back/utility who sets up the play. Sure, Bathie is also a lock-down defender, but he's quite a bit older than Gillies and he's Lonergan's size. Gillies certainly didn't set the world on fire in the NAB Cup, but I'd argue that whenever he has been given a chance in the real stuff (besides his selection as the sub in Round 15 last year, a decision that I don't think I'll ever understand), he has acquitted himself quite well.

Rather than not being able to say it, to me it seems to be a fair call to make that Gillies could possibly be better suited as the fifth or sixth defender against AFL-level opposition, than he is as the first or second defender against VFL-level opposition. Again, I don't see a lot of VFL, but Brown for Scarlett seems like a desperate, Gamble-esque move. by all means, bring Brown in, but I'd be surprised if it was as a straight swap for Scarlett.

That is a fair analysis, and I agree with it.

But playing as even the fifth and sixth defender at afl level is still hard, it's challenging, it's a step up from vfl level. And to give the coaches confidence you can do that, you've got to lay down some signs at vfl level, doesn't mean you have to not get beaten, young players at vfl will always get beaten at times, but you need to show genuine improvement over the course of a couple of months, or six months. The reason why I pointed out the other young kids in the defence is they are currently doing that. Gillies needs to do the same to help himself get regular games. And look, there's still time for him to do that.

On Brown, I don't think it's fair to compare it to the Gamble on Schneider move. First of all Gillies might not be fit, second of all Brown might not even play in defence. Scott seemed pretty clear we are flexible and don't have to go like for like, so Brown might just be the next cab off the rank and might not play as a key defender at all.

 

[thejester]

Why wouldn't they pick Josh Hunt if he's fit?

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Is Gillies the only option that we have to take Scarlett's place in defense?

What do you think the chances are the the SC will take a punt on a young recruit like Jordan Murdoch?

I am aware that he has not got the body development yet but he is very quick.

Unlikely given he's a) very new and b) didn't play vfl last week. Correction, he was a late inclusion and did play, but I'd still be surprised, probably a few cabs off the rank before my boy Jordan.

Assuming Jhunt is not fit and if Gillies isn't also, Scarlett's replacement will come from one of Byrnes, Brown or Horlin Smith.