AFL Women's League

[RodneyMaynard]

Apologies if there's already a thread for this, but as we draw closer to the proposed introduction of a female AFL comp, I thought it would be good to have a thread to discuss developments as they happen, and consider the industry logistics of this undertaking.

In this recent article http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-12-01/dons-to-bid-on-licence-for-2017-womens-league the Dons mention bidding for a license. Is this how people think it will work? Will women's clubs be directly aligned with individual men's clubs? Or will they be their own entity? Will they play as lead-in games to AFL matches in big stadiums, or be played separately in more botique grounds? Will the games be locked behind pay TV, or will the ABC step up and champion elite women's sport as they have done for soccer, hockey and netball?

And what will the league be called? For obvious reasons, WAFL isn't an option.

There have been other threads discussing the merits of the league, so please keep this discussion limited to the 'how' rather than questioning the 'why'.

 

[Gigantor]

Good idea in opening a thread, and some good questions.

We know about the dees and dogs having played games two years running, and with the last game being broadcast, showing the concept can work.

At one point we heard Gil mention six teams to start with (whether it starts with more or not is probably going to depend on the amount of external funding, if any).

Since then, I've heard of a few clubs putting their hands up to fund teams, including some with deep pockets, e.g. hawks and pies.

Now the AFL may have started this with a vague idea of where they were going, but if you have big clubs wanting to fund their own teams 100% - how attractive will that be to the AFL? I'd think extremely attractive (although the downside is that you end up narrowing the fanbase of you have teams called Hawthorn and Collingwood - would they fund teams with different names?)

The other thought which has occurred to me: could we head down the track of teams being linked to universities, in much the same way as the Giants NEAFL team is linked to WSU?

Can we truly afford a national draft where players are being sent all over Australia? I can't see that working early on, the costs are too great - you'd think they would try and source local women as much as possible - or have some scholarship system where those girls of a certain age study at unis linked to the clubs as part of their package - I haven't actually read that but it occurs to me that that might be one way of getting a women's league up and running.

As for the name of the comp - it's a really difficult one - you can't use WAFL, nor can you use Australian Womens Football League (AWFL - code warriors would latch on to that one pretty quickly).

National Womens Football League, or just Womens Football League could work.

 

[Rob]

So of the 6 Victorian AFL clubs that want a licence to run a womens team, 4 of them have no money.

WTF? Surely a prerequisite is that you have the funds to actually run the team properly.....

 

[Ned_Flanders]

So of the 6 Victorian AFL clubs that want a licence to run a womens team, 4 of them have no money.

WTF? Surely a prerequisite is that you have the funds to actually run the team properly.....

Dons aren't exactly on the poverty line

Who is your forth poor club (exc Dee's and dogs)

 

[Rob]

Dons aren't exactly on the poverty line

Who is your forth poor club (exc Dee's and dogs)

St kilda and Carlton. It was interesting that the 2 richest Victorian clubs don't appear to be interested.
I wonder if either WA club wants to be involved?

 

[greatwhiteshark]

St kilda and Carlton. It was interesting that the 2 richest Victorian clubs don't appear to be interested.
I wonder if either WA club wants to be involved?

The WA clubs will want one when the time is right, it is a good look for their brand so they will do it. It is all about how you look in the AFL.

 

[Gigantor]

So of the 6 Victorian AFL clubs that want a licence to run a womens team, 4 of them have no money.

WTF? Surely a prerequisite is that you have the funds to actually run the team properly.....

If they are going with six teams, you'd think there would be no more than 3 vic teams (most probably two).

I had already heard Perth and Brisbane are likely to be in, so that leaves the other mainland capitals.

 

[Rob]

[

If they are going with six teams, you'd think there would be no more than 3 vic teams (most probably two).

I had already heard Perth and Brisbane are likely to be in, so that leaves the other mainland capitals.

If it was based on current playing strength you'd have 3 Vic, 2 WA and 1 Queensland. With NSW/ACT next in line.

 

[The_Wookie]

According to the 2014 AFL Annual Report

In 2014, 194,966 girls and women (15 per cent growth) participated in NAB AFL Auskick, AFL 9s, club and schools football programs.The segment breakdown of female participants shows females represent 19 per cent of the total number of footballers. The 2014 breakdown per program
type shows:

• Clubs – 14,820.
• Schools – 155,204.
• AFL 9s – 14,654.
• Auskick – 27,373.

The AFL, which says it is still on track to establish a national women's league by 2017, wants to have 500 female teams nationwide by 2019.

NSW

• Dedicated female participation grew by over 46 per cent to a total of 3,559 and 41,241 girls played across mainstream NAB AFL Auskick and school programs.

WA

• 2014 - Female participation increased from 18,000 to 28,000.
• 80 Female Club Teams – 15 more teams than 2013 (38 Junior Teams, 24 Youth Teams & 18 Senior Teams)
• 2,000 club players (2015)

Victoria

• AFL Victoria assumed the management of the Victorian Women’s Football League (VWFL) following a vote of members in late 2013, with 10 new
  teams introduced across six divisions for season 2014.
• The VWFL provided over 50 per cent of the players in the AFL Women’s Exhibition game between Melbourne and the Western Bulldogs (2014)
• 42,260 Female particpants, including 63 new football teams in 2015.
• Ten team statewide competition to be created, aligned with the VFL in 2016.
• An AFL Womens Academy was started in 2015

Queensland

• Queensland achieved the highest female participation in Australia in 2014 with 51,722 girls and women playing the game – up 30 per cent.
• In 2015, the figure was 71,293 with 43 new womens teams commenced.
  
• The #GirlsPlayToo awareness campaign for girls aged 10 to 15 was rolled out across the state.

South Australia

• Womens participation is the highest on record with 16 new teams entered in the SA Girls competition.

Ill try and update this again later.

 

[The_Wookie]

[


If it was based on current playing strength you'd have 3 Vic, 2 WA and 1 Queensland. With NSW/ACT next in line.

Playing strength? what is that based on

 

[Rob]

Playing strength? what is that based on

State level games over the past 5-10 years.

Generally it goes Victoria - daylight - WA - daylight - Queensland - daylight - NSW - ACT - SA - Tassie.

Although in 2015 Victoria lost what I believe was for the first time ever.

 

[RodneyMaynard]

According to the 2014 AFL Annual Report

In 2014, 194,966 girls and women (15 per cent growth) participated in NAB AFL Auskick, AFL 9s, club and schools football programs.The segment breakdown of female participants shows females represent 19 per cent of the total number of footballers. The 2014 breakdown per program
type shows:

• Clubs – 14,820.
• Schools – 155,204.
• AFL 9s – 14,654.
• Auskick – 27,373.

The AFL, which says it is still on track to establish a national women's league by 2017, wants to have 500 female teams nationwide by 2019.

NSW

• Dedicated female participation grew by over 46 per cent to a total of 3,559 and 41,241 girls played across mainstream NAB AFL Auskick and school programs.

WA

• 2014 - Female participation increased from 18,000 to 28,000.
• 80 Female Club Teams – 15 more teams than 2013 (38 Junior Teams, 24 Youth Teams & 18 Senior Teams)
• 2,000 club players (2015)

Victoria

• AFL Victoria assumed the management of the Victorian Women’s Football League (VWFL) following a vote of members in late 2013, with 10 new
  teams introduced across six divisions for season 2014.
• The VWFL provided over 50 per cent of the players in the AFL Women’s Exhibition game between Melbourne and the Western Bulldogs (2014)
• 42,260 Female particpants, including 63 new football teams in 2015.
• Ten team statewide competition to be created, aligned with the VFL in 2016.
• An AFL Womens Academy was started in 2015

Queensland

• Queensland achieved the highest female participation in Australia in 2014 with 51,722 girls and women playing the game – up 30 per cent.
• In 2015, the figure was 71,293 with 43 new womens teams commenced.
  
• The #GirlsPlayToo awareness campaign for girls aged 10 to 15 was rolled out across the state.

South Australia

• Womens participation is the highest on record with 16 new teams entered in the SA Girls competition.

Ill try and update this again later.

I wonder what it is about AFL in Queensland that has attracted so many more female participants than other states? Better advertising/organisation/administration of women's football by AFL Queensland? Or some other environmental factor? In any case it's very encouraging, and should be fostered with an team in the national women's league.

 

[coniglio_number1]

All women's teams should be aligned with current men's teams as it would significantly reduce costs. Shared use of facilities, merchandise and grounds with only requiring a few extra coaches to make it work on a rudimentary level.

My guess is

Melbourne
Footscray
Essendon
Collingwood
Brisbane
West coast

Next expansion phase
Adelaide
Sydney
Gold Coast
Fremantle

Next expansion phase
GWS
Port Adelaide

 

[Gigantor]

All women's teams should be aligned with current men's teams as it would significantly reduce costs. Shared use of facilities, merchandise and grounds with only requiring a few extra coaches to make it work on a rudimentary level.

My guess is

Melbourne
Footscray
Essendon
Collingwood
Brisbane
West coast

Next expansion phase
Adelaide
Sydney
Gold Coast
Fremantle

Next expansion phase
GWS
Port Adelaide

I see pros and cons to all teams being aligned to an existing AFL side.

You've mentioned the pros, and they are fair enough, but the cons are:

1. you could end up with cities not being able to handle the number of womens teams allocated (indeed, 18 teams in total might be way too many); and
2. you exclude the possibility of placing a women's team somewhere which doesn't have an AFL team, for example, Canberra doesn't have an A-League team, but it has a relatively successful W-League team.

Also, you have the further complication of nick names, not a game changer, but you probably don't want both teams carrying the identical nick names.

In fact, female nick names in the modern age is a tricky subject in its own right.

 

[eastfreo75]

All women's teams should be aligned with current men's teams as it would significantly reduce costs. Shared use of facilities, merchandise and grounds with only requiring a few extra coaches to make it work on a rudimentary level.

My guess is

Melbourne
Footscray
Essendon
Collingwood
Brisbane
West coast

Next expansion phase
Adelaide
Sydney
Gold Coast
Fremantle

Next expansion phase
GWS
Port Adelaide

If you going by playing strength, then it should 3 Vic Teams, 2 WA teams, and 1 Qld Team.

 

[coniglio_number1]

I see pros and cons to all teams being aligned to an existing AFL side.

You've mentioned the pros, and they are fair enough, but the cons are:

1. you could end up with cities not being able to handle the number of womens teams allocated (indeed, 18 teams in total might be way too many); and
2. you exclude the possibility of placing a women's team somewhere which doesn't have an AFL team, for example, Canberra doesn't have an A-League team, but it has a relatively successful W-League team.

Also, you have the further complication of nick names, not a game changer, but you probably don't want both teams carrying the identical nick names.

In fact, female nick names in the modern age is a tricky subject in its own right.

I don't a point in changing the nickname. If they are the same club then why not the same nickname. They didn't change the names of the demons and dogs to succubus and bitches

 

[Farm Boy]

All women's teams should be aligned with current men's teams as it would significantly reduce costs. Shared use of facilities, merchandise and grounds with only requiring a few extra coaches to make it work on a rudimentary level.

Is there enough quality to make up a league where every team is represented? IMO there is barely enough quality in the men's league - which has been around for over a century. I think there is a lack of quality over the whole as a league in the men's, so It isn't really going to add to the spectacle of women's football is they are just making up teams for the sake of numbers, and I don't think they'll do that either. Also shared facilities is a recipe for disaster in this day and age.

 

[coniglio_number1]

Is there enough quality to make up a league where every team is represented? IMO there is barely enough quality in the men's league - which has been around for over a century. I think there is a lack of quality over the whole as a league in the men's, so It isn't really going to add to the spectacle of women's football is they are just making up teams for the sake of numbers, and I don't think they'll do that either. Also shared facilities is a recipe for disaster in this day and age.

I already stated the 6 teams I think should form the women's league. In no way is it ready for 18 teams. Maybe by 2050.

I don't see an issue with sharing facilities provided they are upgraded at a cost picked up by the league.

 

[Farm Boy]

I already stated the 6 teams I think should form the women's league. In no way is it ready for 18 teams. Maybe by 2050.

I don't see an issue with sharing facilities provided they are upgraded at a cost picked up by the league.

6 teams would be good. The quality of the Melbourne Vs Bullies game this year was high level.

 

[Gigantor]

6 teams would be good. The quality of the Melbourne Vs Bullies game this year was high level.

Pretty much a broad consensus that if it starts with six teams (as has been mooted), Victoria is likely to provide 2 or 3 teams.

That's the easy bit, but then there's a long term structural question to decide:

• do we continue with Melbourne and the Bulldogs, two of the less financial teams (might also represent a reason for the AFL to funnel more money into both clubs outside of the current unequal distribution forumla)
• let the wealthier clubs who have expressed an interest run with it first (Haw and pies), thereby saving the rest of the comp on expending the necessary resources
• do something completely different

Once again, pros and cons for each option, and some conflicting criteria to throw around upon which the AFL will weigh their assessment.

 

[Gigantor]

Coincidentally, just listening to a podcast called The Ladies Stand (Dec 3), and they're talking to an Essendon rep about their bid for a team in 2017.

She spoke at length about their academy (not sure if that was an AFL wide academy or an Essendon academy).

She reckons the dons have bid for a team because they have the facilities and because they have run a stand alone VFL team for a while, have the experience, etc.

They actually sound pretty advanced in their planning (which surprised me).

She's talking about a massive spike in female registrations for 2016, which she says is connected to the announcement that there will be a league in 2017.

How much in resources? They need different change facilities - first priority - for both game day and training. She mentioned that the AFL would cover some of the foundation costs (insurance, etc). She said they'd be able to use Windy Hill as a home ground.

I have to admit - she sounded quite convincing,

 

[Farm Boy]

• do we continue with Melbourne and the Bulldogs, two of the less financial teams (might also represent a reason for the AFL to funnel more money into.

Both the Demons and Bulldogs have stepped up here, they shouldn't be penalised for being a ahead of the game. Of course both should have their own teams, I can only assume they will be the first 2 teams approved. Congrats to both the Demons and Bullodgs, they have done a tremendous job.

 

[coniglio_number1]

I think it would be great for the dogs and dees to continue with women's teams.

It could provide more members and cash for 2 smaller teams. Actually I think the first group of Victorian teams should be the small clubs to help give them an early leg up before the big clubs bring in their own women's teams.

 

[The_Wookie]

Both the Demons and Bulldogs have stepped up here, they shouldn't be penalised for being a ahead of the game. Of course both should have their own teams, I can only assume they will be the first 2 teams approved. Congrats to both the Demons and Bullodgs, they have done a tremendous job.

Its the affordability part. Hawthorn, Collingwood and Essendon are fairly bulletproof financially - and have or are developing excellent facilities and VFL sides. Geelong can usually be considered this way as well. The Dogs and Dees have some of the worst financial bases in the league and will need even more AFL money than they get now.

For all the work the Dees and Dogs have done, the AFL would have to fully fund the womens teams and staff requirements for them, and if thats the plan, then anyone should be able to bid on a team with the same result.

 

[jatz14]

Its the affordability part. Hawthorn, Collingwood and Essendon are fairly bulletproof financially - and have or are developing excellent facilities and VFL sides. Geelong can usually be considered this way as well. The Dogs and Dees have some of the worst financial bases in the league and will need even more AFL money than they get now.

For all the work the Dees and Dogs have done, the AFL would have to fully fund the womens teams and staff requirements for them, and if thats the plan, then anyone should be able to bid on a team with the same result.

Geelong advertiser article http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au...d/news-story/a6df15b455fe1ce05bc5dcda753fca7f

Few more dribbles of info in there. Geelong estimating it will cost $500 000 pa initially. Short season, early in the year so players can then go back to club teams. This was suggested as likely because womens footy is still not deep enough to be able to pull the 150+ best players out without gutting existing comps.

Players paid, but pocket money, which raises the question of, how do you draft and try and equalise the comp, as you cannot expect people to move their lives across country for pocket money.

Also, by my reckoning it is more like 8 teams in Vic interested. Clarkson dropped a while ago that the Hawks had made contingency plans in their budgeting for a womens team already.

It has also been strongly hinted at, that it is likely to be 4 Vic teams and 2 others, almost certainly WA and QLD. AFL Queensland have already said in that scenario, it would be a Lions team. It is hard to get a read on how keen the Eagles and Dockers are for a womens team.

As for how Queensland leapfrogged so far past SA, and isnt far short of WA, check out the AFL Queensland website, facebook page, twitter feed etc. You could follow footy in WA quite closely and not even know there was a youthgirls comp, in Queensland it is plastered everywhere. AFL Queenslands award night does the mens and womens awards at the same function. You can see the male players and female players getting their award photos together, that is an attitude and approach not seen elsewhere, and it shows in how women regard the game. SA is now making an effort, but you sense that deep down, they are still pissed of that pc madness forced them to let girls kick a ball, and they secretly yearn for the good old days of 7 or 8 years ago where they could pretend that womens footy just didn't exist.

There is a thread on this in the womens footy forums http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/details-on-national-comp.927792/

However a thread in the industry forum is probably also appropriate