after the Hawks premiership

[Hawkk]

Check this out if you haven't seen/heard about it before... http://maxbarry.com/squiggle/2014.html

You can use the drop down in the top right to look at teams from other years.

As you'll see Hawks 2014 is considerably better than Hawks 2011. You'll also see that Hawks 2014 is right up there with St Kilda 2009 and Collingwood 2011 who were both very defensive sides compared to Hawthorn 2014 who were very offensive.

Also notice how while Geelong's 2011 flag is one of the best of the last 20 years (though a bit blown out due to belting Collingwood by 16 goals late in the season who were fading late) Geelong 2009 is one of the worst.

At worst Hawthorn are clearly in the top 3 sides since 2000 as per the op. I personally reckon Hawks and Geelong sit fairly equal with Brisbane not far behind. Next year could prove to be a tie breaker of sorts. And with all the improvement Brisbane has made to their list this off season it might even be them that takes it.

I agree with this but surely you are not suggesting that the Lions are a 2015 flag fancy

 

[sr36]

I appreciate your input.
Its nice to hear a new opinion, i think I sit somewere in the middle of both opinions.

I dont agree Hawthorn were stronger in 2011 but I do agree it was a more competitive year (and a harder cup to win). Since Collingwoods and Geelongs fall from grace and Hawthorns rise there hasnt been another team really in that same leauge thats why we keep jumping at staws like Sydney and Fremantle.

For what it's worth, I think the Cats were far and away the best team of the period. To me the big difference comes down to coaching and game plans. The Pies and the Saints were so good because unlike many other teams, their coaches didn't try to emulate the Cats style, they came up with game plans of incessant pressuring of the ball carrier to cause turnover goals against teams who were intent on trying to run the ball with a chain of handballs. Since then, most other teams have copied St Kilda and Collingwood's style. The Hawks have been the major exception and have worked out how to absorb and pick apart the incessant pressure.

Basically, I think the Hawks are so successful because their methods have been neither copied or targetted in the same way that those of Geelong, St Kilda and the Pies have.

 

[cryptor]

I agree with this but surely you are not suggesting that the Lions are a 2015 flag fancy

A very, very smokey smokey. Exceptional quality midfield but bit thin at either end.

 

[Hawkk]

A very, very smokey smokey. Exceptional quality midfield but bit thin at either end.

They'll be doing well to make the eight given how far back they are coming from (15th)

 

[cryptor]

They'll be doing well to make the eight given how far back they are coming from (15th)

True but then West Coast came from dead last in 2010 to finish 4th in 2011. You know... that year where there was ridiculously strong competition for the flag...?

 

[skipper kelly]

Its a neutral venue half the comp plays out of and interstate teams visit multiple times a year.

if you have a better solution shoot away if not make a more relevant comment to why this current hawthorn outfit is not one of the modem day great sides.

I told you why. Of the 3 teams with 3 flags only 1 of those teams plays GF's at their home ground.

 

[CyrilDaSquirrel]

I told you why. Of the 3 teams with 3 flags only 1 of those teams plays GF's at their home ground.

What home ground are you talking about? Our home ground in our South Eastern heartland was demolished by the AFL in 1999. You really should remember this... The final round of 1999 at Waverley is Sydney's third biggest home and away crowd ever. We beat you by 85 points. Happy days. Since then we've had to make do playing at a neutral venue near the CBD.

 

[MC_9]

The Hawthorn side of 2014 is vastly a superior side than its 2011 equivalent.


From 2011...we have added a KP defender in Lake. An elite one at that.
An AA medium half forward flanker in Breust.
An elite 2nd/3rd tall in Gunston.
A true Ruckman in McEvoy.
Two of the best outside gut runners in the land in Smith and Hill, Smith was in his first year in 2011
Burgoyne atm is one rung below his form of 2007 at Port in 2011 he was a shadow of his former self.
Lewis has become an elite mid.
We have added pace into the clearances in Langford.
Roughead actually played a full year......and has now gone to another level.
it goes on and on.

The simple fact remains is that the Hawthorn side of 2014 runs harder, hits harder, has more depth is more versatile, has better personnel in more positions and is supremely more potent in all areas.

Now please go play with yourself.....nighty night.

There is just no argument that you could make that the Hawthorn team of 2011 is anywhere near the team of 2014.

The simple fact Hawthorn finished the year with an 18-4 record and was kick off the Grand Final, just shows how weak the competition was. You had a couple teams at the top that were beating up on a whole lot of ordinary teams, where as 2014 the competition was a lot more even and the top teams didn't just beat up on everyone.

 

[dipper86]

They did win more games in the H/A in that year and outplayed the mighty Collingwood for large portions of the prelim, kicked badly and only went down by a few points (vice-versa of 2014 PF), so it's debatable how good they are now. And before you start with the "we had injuries this year" excuse to suit your agenda, 2011 you had them aswell.

All that shows is that the competition was a hell of a lot weaker in 2011. That an inferior Hawthorn side in 2011 could push Collingwood all the way.
The improvement in the Hawthorn side from 2011 to 2014 is undeniable in almost every area from game plan to personnel.

You conveniently ignored the previous post....I can understand why.

From 2011...we have added a KP defender in Lake. An elite one at that.
An AA medium half forward flanker in Breust.
An elite 2nd/3rd tall in Gunston.
A true Ruckman in McEvoy.
Two of the best outside gut runners in the land in Smith and Hill, Smith was in his first year in 2011
Burgoyne atm is one rung below his form of 2007 at Port, in 2011, he was a shadow of his former self.
Lewis has become an elite mid.
We have added pace into the clearances in Langford. A clear weakness in our midfield for many years.
Roughead actually played a full year......and has now gone to another level.
it goes on and on.

The simple fact remains is that the Hawthorn side of 2014 runs harder, hits harder, has more depth is more versatile, has better personnel in more positions and is supremely more potent in all areas.

 

[dipper86]

There is just no argument that you could make that the Hawthorn team of 2011 is anywhere near the team of 2014.

The simple fact Hawthorn finished the year with an 18-4 record and was kick off the Grand Final, just shows how weak the competition was. You had a couple teams at the top that were beating up on a whole lot of ordinary teams, where as 2014 the competition was a lot more even and the top teams didn't just beat up on everyone.

Beat me to it. Good post.

 

[Brock Lesnar]

There is just no argument that you could make that the Hawthorn team of 2011 is anywhere near the team of 2014.

The simple fact Hawthorn finished the year with an 18-4 record and was kick off the Grand Final, just shows how weak the competition was. You had a couple teams at the top that were beating up on a whole lot of ordinary teams, where as 2014 the competition was a lot more even and the top teams didn't just beat up on everyone.

All that shows is that the competition was a hell of a lot weaker in 2011. That an inferior Hawthorn side in 2011 could push Collingwood all the way.
The improvement in the Hawthorn side from 2011 to 2014 is undeniable in almost every area from game plan to personnel.

You conveniently ignored the previous post....I can understand why.

From 2011...we have added a KP defender in Lake. An elite one at that.
An AA medium half forward flanker in Breust.
An elite 2nd/3rd tall in Gunston.
A true Ruckman in McEvoy.
Two of the best outside gut runners in the land in Smith and Hill, Smith was in his first year in 2011
Burgoyne atm is one rung below his form of 2007 at Port, in 2011, he was a shadow of his former self.
Lewis has become an elite mid.
We have added pace into the clearances in Langford. A clear weakness in our midfield for many years.
Roughead actually played a full year......and has now gone to another level.
it goes on and on.

The simple fact remains is that the Hawthorn side of 2014 runs harder, hits harder, has more depth is more versatile, has better personnel in more positions and is supremely more potent in all areas.

LOL

Hawthorn fans getting desperate arguing 2011 was weak and 2014 was strong!

 

[Hawkk]

LOL

Hawthorn fans getting desperate arguing 2011 was weak and 2014 was strong!

LOL

Poster made a ridiculous assertion and has provided little to back it up.

Are you suggesting that Hawthorn 2011 was stronger than Brisbane 2001-04 and Geelong 2009?

 

[Brock Lesnar]

LOL

Poster made a ridiculous assertion and has provided little to back it up.

Are you suggesting that Hawthorn 2011 was stronger than Brisbane 2001-04 and Geelong 2009?

No I said it's debatable that they are as good as they were then as they are now, arguments can be made either way. Actually I was replying to all you guys who labelled it a preposterous assertion, funny that this is coming from the same people who think 2011 was a weak year and 2014 was strong!

 

[Hawkk]

No I said it's debatable that they are as good as they were then as they are now, arguments can be made either way. Actually I was replying to all you guys who labelled it a preposterous assertion, funny that this is coming from the same people who think 2011 was a weak year and 2014 was strong!

I'm not one of these posters at all...

I don't think there is any disputing that the Cats defeated stiffer opposition in 2007-2011 (which made the 2008 flag by a baby Hawthorn all the more remarkable) I do however dispute that the competition that the Lions faced in 1999-2004 was any more stiff than Hawthorn over the 2008-2014 period.

Clearly I believe that Hawthorn was far stronger in 2013 then they were in 2011 though...

Save the Kennett curse, that side was a good 2-3 wins ahead of the rest of the competition

 

[HeHateMe]

No I said it's debatable that they are as good as they were then as they are now, arguments can be made either way. Actually I was replying to all you guys who labelled it a preposterous assertion, funny that this is coming from the same people who think 2011 was a weak year and 2014 was strong!

I think 2011 is a strong year but lets end this debate about hawks 2011 being stronger then the 2013/14 model. Hawks 2014 is much stronger why even suggest otherwise.

 

[dipper86]

No I said it's debatable that they are as good as they were then as they are now, arguments can be made either way. Actually I was replying to all you guys who labelled it a preposterous assertion, funny that this is coming from the same people who think 2011 was a weak year and 2014 was strong!

Hahaha a simple I was owned would have sufficed.....but this will do.
Hawthorn of 2014 is a far superior side than the equivalent of 2011, it isn't debatable, their is no argument....its fact.
You made a call, you were wrong.....enjoy

 

[MC_9]

LOL

Hawthorn fans getting desperate arguing 2011 was weak and 2014 was strong!

So you believe that the Hawthorn side in 2011 is equal to the 2013/14 version?

The current side is 3-4 goal better team.

 

[Pie_fan92]

Lets say we have to pick a side which plays for our lives, now who do you pick?

I'm going Brisbane, only because I can't remember them having any weakness.

 

[hawkman]

Its a legit question that many people have asked.

We had Tom Murphy and Schoenmakers in the backline, Osborne and Bateman were on their last legs, Smith, Puopolo, Stratton, Breust and Suckling were all in their first or second season. Roughed missed half the season with the Achilles

 

[jaitachi]

hi, i wonder if (i havent read the whole thread) did anybody count brisbanes 3 peat ? thats jordan styles.. 3 in a row,Jordan and PIppen did tje 3 peak twce which made jordan the best player ever (scott is really elite too
but yeh doesnt matter neway

 

[Rainfall]

Geelong sucks!

View attachment 88291

Donkey kong sucks.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Rabbitohs 2014 >>>>> Hawks 2014.


Am I doing this right?

 

[seysearles]

I personally rate Brisbane a much better team than both Geelong and Hawthorn. Their list was superior and the fact they 3 peat-ed trumps the other 2 comfortably.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned though which should probably be considered is the number of teams in the comp when the respective premierships were won. When we went back to back we emerged from a pool 12.5% larger than the rest of the premiers (bar Geelong in 2011 which was 6.25% larger than the others).

Brisbane 2001 - 16 team comp
Brisbane 2002 - 16 team comp
Brisbane 2003 - 16 team comp
Geelong 2007 - 16 team comp
Hawthorn 2008 - 16 team comp
Geelong 2009 - 16 team comp
Geelong 2011 - 17 team comp
Hawthorn 2013 - 18 team comp
Hawthorn 2014 - 18 team comp

 

[seysearles]

We've done it multiple times and a handful of hawthorn supporters start crying every time the majority come to the conclusion they aren't better than geelong, then they irrationally defend themselves, then everyone gives them s**t, then they accuse ppl of obsessing over hawthorn, then we laugh some more.

You forgot to say how the conversations end though ... we point out that we just won back to back flags and everything you say after that is meaningless.

<----- Check em out!

 

[Kavliaris69]

All that shows is that the competition was a hell of a lot weaker in 2011. That an inferior Hawthorn side in 2011 could push Collingwood all the way.
The improvement in the Hawthorn side from 2011 to 2014 is undeniable in almost every area from game plan to personnel.

You conveniently ignored the previous post....I can understand why.

From 2011...we have added a KP defender in Lake. An elite one at that.
An AA medium half forward flanker in Breust.
An elite 2nd/3rd tall in Gunston.
A true Ruckman in McEvoy.
Two of the best outside gut runners in the land in Smith and Hill, Smith was in his first year in 2011
Burgoyne atm is one rung below his form of 2007 at Port, in 2011, he was a shadow of his former self.
Lewis has become an elite mid.
We have added pace into the clearances in Langford. A clear weakness in our midfield for many years.
Roughead actually played a full year......and has now gone to another level.
it goes on and on.

The simple fact remains is that the Hawthorn side of 2014 runs harder, hits harder, has more depth is more versatile, has better personnel in more positions and is supremely more potent in all areas.

Good post.

I don't think I have seen mentioned anywhere that this was all done during a period of compromised drafts due to GCS and GWS. This is another reason why our achievement is quite significant for us and generally in the footy world.

HFC excelled in recruiting and developing internally over the last several years to become this powerhouse. We did that better than any other team. This is
why HFC has the best coaching and recruiting team that saw the writting on the wall and made a plan for a period of sustained success with limited options
with regards to new young draftees. Yes we did lose some players (whether it be players leaving as they were starved of opportunities like Kennedy, McGlynn or players that left for lifestyle/$$$ like Buddy.

Sydney are the other team that has tried to recruit where they were deficient also with fair success (regardless of COLA). Tippet, Bud, Kennedy, McGlynn.