Toast Andrejs Everitt - updated discussion Andrejs at Sydney vs Andrejs at Carlton

[thylacine60]

Is that like et al, CrackerMan?

 

[thylacine60]

Have to agree with B & S, when it comes to a player's goods or bads, I just can't get enthused enough to care to the amount this discussion seems to. Enjoy and appreciate the thrust and parry but.

 

[ShanDog]

Have to agree with B & S, when it comes to a player's goods or bads, I just can't get enthused enough to care to the amount this discussion seems to. Enjoy and appreciate the thrust and parry but.

Really want someone to start one of these discourses by putting "Have at you!" at the end of their post.

 

[Blue and Silver]

Touche is actually a fencing term meaning "touch" and is your opponent indicating you have scored.

Next time someone says touche I hope you imagine them lifting their fencing mask first

 

[MrsEddieBetts]

Touche is actually a fencing term meaning "touch" and is your opponent indicating you have scored.

Next time someone says touche I hope you imagine them lifting their fencing mask first

I love learning.

 

[Jeremias]

Is that like et al, CrackerMan?

Terrific nickname. Will use.

 

[Florimo]

Andrejs has definitely won me over. When he was leaving the Dogs a few years ago, I think we had a look at him and I rememeber of lot of opinions thought he was a waste and a bit of a spud. Even with the swans I didnt really rate him, just thought he was making up the numbers for them.

But have been really impressed with his work ethic (especially in the off season), discipline in playing a role / free kicks and just how professional he is in all aspects. He had some big scalps on some great players this year, keeping a few of them to less than 10-15 possesions which getting 20+ himself. I wish he would have came to us years ago.

Some people take longer to develop dont they, and some players that look so-so with some clubs are very good at others. I think Liam Jones might be cut from the same cloth, I really like when players change clubs and really get stuck into training while others are on their holidays etc, shows how much they really want to make things work out with the new club etc.

 

[T2B_]

I don't mind where he was better at, better stats or whatever.

I've just enjoyed his debut year with us immensely and what I've seen from him. Certainly won me over as a fan.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Surely you can accept that:
1. arguments of statistical improvement;
2. alleged greater versatility;
3. Sydney supporters views;
4. B&F results;-

are highly subjective. Although the comparative stats for 2013 to 2014 you have posted and I had seen prior to my initial post involves some objectivity, they demonstrate to me minimal improvement for the reasons I have given. I accept you are entitled to think an increase in goal scoring from 5 to 13 etc represents a significant change beyond what might be expected from a player going from a strong club to a weak club. On this we must disagree.

Wait, wait, wait. You are telling me that my arguments are highly subjective when you based your argument he had not improved a lot on last year on games played, game time and supposed meaningless statistical increases.

I have explained my position regarding B&F results and, it seems to me, extracted a concession from you that coming 7th does not mean he was a top 7 player.

Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. I think I made it clear that he was the 7th best player in terms of our season but not necessarily in terms of our list. I don't judge players by one season only. Others were missing or down for various reasons. I'd have Everitt around 15 or so on our list, whereas he was probably somewhere around 25-30 on Sydney's.

You seem to think Everitt has had some sort of break-out, transformational year. I don't. I think we recruited a guy who could play AFL footy, having showed it in 2013 and backed that up in 2014. My opinion, as is yours, is based on "what happened on the field". I remain of the opinion that if Jones has the level of improvement seen this year in Everitt then, because Jones has not yet shown he can play at the level, Jones will be a dud. At least Jones knows he must improve significantly.

Everitt had shown he could play AFL football consistently in one season prior to coming to Carlton. It was a lot more one dimensional role wise and he was not earning the plaudits he earned this year. He had not shown himself as a run with player and had not run through the midfield a lot. Let's not pretend that going from being a tall flanker to a midfield contributor is meaningless.

* I note in footywire that Everitt had a career high 4 hit-outs in a single game in 2009 - nearly as many as he had this year in this "new found" role. I also note he won his Brownlow votes (and fair pump to his stats) in a single game against the Saints we won by 15 goals. I wonder what star(s) he was opposed to?

You also note that he improved in almost every statistical category from last year to this, often by a fair bit when spread over a season, and when moving from a defensive role to an attacking midfield role, we did not see a comparative downturn in his defensive stats.

However, I've got a sure fire way of assessing these things, without getting into a subjective statistical argument and all this to and fro. Watching the games with the eyes open. On that basis Everitt took a decent step up in 2013 but not enough to convince most supporters, and another one at Carlton this year that saw him more highly valued.

This Swans board thread is pretty underwhelming.
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/andrejs-on-the-chopping-block.1037743/page-4

A few wanted to keep him but recognised he was battling to hold a spot and yes, the 20 game argument was raised.

 

[thylacine60]

It goes on....

 

[Blue and Silver]

Looking a little pale Thy.

Also you need a new shirt

 

[BluesMan]

Not sure we could of (or should of) expected much more from what Dre gave us in his first year at the club. He performed well and given the chance to play his natural game. Finishing 7th in the BnF is a very good result for him and the club. Well done Dre, your best year to date.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I'd join in but I haven't the patience for this sort of inanity.

ODN is right, Dre improved in output. Windhover is right that the improvement isn't truly huge, but is too harsh in his assumption that this is most likely external factors. If the statistical improvement matched the game-time improvement, then perhaps we would be dealing with a correlation, but we aren't, Dre, with more game time, and a confirmed role in the team, became a valuable member of our side.

This argument will essentially be the immoveable object vs the irresistible force

You are right. The discussion is going nowhere. I just thought an opinion expressed that a poster was hoping to see Jones improve as Everitt did this year, did not need cold water poured on it, given how subjective the material is.

Sure Jones' previous year was terrible whereas Everitt's was pretty good, but Jones had a couple of half decent seasons in 2011 and 2013, whereas Everitt had been seriously underwhelming for 6 seasons prior to last year. I see the hope that Jones will find improvement with a change of club as Everitt has as being reasonable.

 

[mediumsizered]

Can't we just love what Dre did this year

For some it is mandatory to adopt a contradictory stance. They think they are clever, but the reality is far removed from clever.

 

[thylacine60]

disagree

 

[zeeCFC]

Can't we just love what Dre did this year

Nowadays everybody wanna talk like they got something to say
But nothing comes out when they move their lips
Just a bunch of gibberish
And mfers act like they forgot about Drej

 

[thylacine60]

Looking a little pale Thy.

Also you need a new shirt

that is my new shirt

 

[The Flying Doormat]

Gee Windhover and ODN argue their cases well. Respectfully, intelligently, using lots of words. Take note you lot.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

 

[Windhover]

Wait, wait, wait. You are telling me that my arguments are highly subjective when you based your argument he had not improved a lot on last year on games played, game time and supposed meaningless statistical increases.

Keep moving. Unlike you I accept my arguments are based on subjective impression with the result that I DO accept others are entitled to their own opinion (something I have previously expressly acknowledged).

Everitt had shown he could play AFL football consistently in one season prior to coming to Carlton.

Thanks. That is really my point in a nutshell.

It was a lot more one dimensional role wise and he was not earning the plaudits he earned this year. He had not shown himself as a run with player and had not run through the midfield a lot. Let's not pretend that going from being a tall flanker to a midfield contributor is meaningless.

Sure. Here is a deal. I won't pretend adding midfield contributor to a player's attributes is meaningless if you don't pretend a "clearance gumby" (4 centre clearances and 21 clearances in 17 games in 14; 2 and 10 in 20 games in 13 for Sydney) is making a meaningful midfield contribution even if it is a "doubling" in output from the previous year. As I have previously indicated, doubling off a low base is often just statistical noise rather than a meaningful trend.

You also note that he improved in almost every statistical category from last year to this, often by a fair bit when spread over a season, and when moving from a defensive role to an attacking midfield role, we did not see a comparative downturn in his defensive stats.

Yes I do, thanks. That's why I have always said he improved on last year, just not by much. I have also said that playing for a lesser club is likely to improve one's stats - a point you seem to ignore.

However, I've got a sure fire way of assessing these things, without getting into a subjective statistical argument and all this to and fro. Watching the games with the eyes open.

I disagree. No matter how "open" one thinks one's eyes are, this is the exemplar of subjectivity.

This Swans board thread is pretty underwhelming.
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/andrejs-on-the-chopping-block.1037743/page-4

A few wanted to keep him but recognised he was battling to hold a spot and yes, the 20 game argument was raised.

Thanks for the link. I wouldn't have bothered because it is just "subjectivity on subjectivity". (Not that there is anything wrong with subjectivity, it is unavoidable. It is just that I do not expect one subjective opinion to be swayed merely by the existence of some other subjective opinion. "Facts" like B&F votes, stats have at least some objectivity about them, although they must be interpreted).
Anyway, I did find the link interesting. At post 85 this:

Everitt played well this year, better than he's played before, a breakout year and showed enough to convince me that he's got what it takes.

I am sure you and I will agree that at least on the statistical evidence the jump in performance from previous years to 2013 (particularly the second half of 2013 and finals) was marked and did constitute a "breakout year".
As for 2014 the improvement was clearly more "a consolidation" of his improvement in 2013 than a real step up. Which was my original observation.

 

[Windhover]

Brevity is the soul of wit.

Ah, herring.

 

[MrsEddieBetts]

Jaysus.

 

[gillo94]

Everitt much improved player when went from Dogs to Swans. Has continued that improvement at Blues

 

[thylacine60]

No need to go on and on about it, gillo.....

 

[gillo94]

No need to go on and on about it, gillo.....

Just saying how i like Andrejs at Blues! thylacine lol

 

[MrsEddieBetts]

Haha