Another alleged racial abuse incident, this time at Buddy Franklin

[JohnnyFontane90]

We are.

But saying racial slurs are "no different to any of the other insults thrown at players over the fence" is stupid and ignorant. And if someone is saying we should excuse them on that basis, they're stupid and ignorant. It's racial abuse. It's unaceptable in 2014. There is no defence. There is no justification. There is no time it's okay. And if anyone attempts to so they are, say it with me, stupid and ignorant.

not once did anyone here say it was acceptable.

but 5-10 year ban for insulting someone's race, but i'm allowed to yell out 'junkie!' or insult buddys mother and no one would think twice. you don't see the inconsistency there? that seem proportionate to you? the player would be expected to walk it off. in that stadium buddy's the bad guy and people treat him that way. if that fan met him in real life i bet he'd treat him just like any other normal person. what happens at footy games is not a symptom of racism in this country.

 

[J_Moore]

He couldn't even remember my name. Elephants don't have great memories in any case.

I'd like to apologise to Hedgehodgey for suggesting he says racist s**t when he's angry.

 

[ManWithNoName]

not once did anyone here say it was acceptable.

but 5-10 year ban for insulting someone's race, but i'm allowed to yell out 'junkie!' or insult buddys mother and no one would think twice. you don't see the inconsistency there? that seem proportionate to you? the player would be expected to walk it off. in that stadium buddy's the bad guy and people treat him that way. if that fan met him in real life i bet he'd treat him just like any other normal person. what happens at footy games is not a symptom of racism in this country.

You call someone a junkie, or even a rapist like Milne copped for years, you're insulting them and them alone.

You racially abuse someone, you're not just abusing them. You're abusing all people of that race. Their friends. Their family. You're saying they're all lesser than you are for no other reason than the race they were born as.

Surely you can see the difference.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

You call someone a junkie, or even a rapist like Milne copped for years, you're insulting them and them alone.

You racially abuse someone, you're not just abusing them. You're abusing all people of that race. Their friends. Their family. You're saying they're all lesser than you are for no other reason than the race they were born as.

Surely you can see the difference.

That's nonsense

Either you're also abusing milnes family and friends, people falsely accused of rape, etc, or you're just abusing franklin

People get offended by different things, because one person is of a different race, doesn't mean that you're insulting that persons entire race

If heard some dreadful things come out of the mouths of all races, directed at another race
It isn't a cultural thing, it is life, and happens in all communities

 

[pokerspiv]

OK, I'm going to bite here.

Your post is a disgrace. You're justifying the stolen generations, as if it was done for 'their own good'. You're neglecting the fact that children were removed in order to breed them and 'purify' the race.

Then you are on a thread like this talking about what is and isn't racist. Honestly, give us all a break and just leave.

You get a gold star for conspicuous outrage. I was just correcting an incorrect post, that's all.

Children were not removed to "breed them". That is just ridiculous. Yes, there was racism involved. They were taken away because of the belief (based in racism) that aboriginal mothers could not look after their children. Children were also taken away from white single mothers. Governments still do the same thing under the guise of "protecting children". It hasn't gone away.

 

[ManWithNoName]

That's nonsense

Either you're also abusing milnes family and friends, people falsely accused of rape, etc, or you're just abusing franklin

People get offended by different things, because one person is of a different race, doesn't mean that you're insulting that persons entire race

If heard some dreadful things come out of the mouths of all races, directed at another race
It isn't a cultural thing, it is life, and happens in all communities

Rubbish.

"You're a rapist * you" yelled at Milne is targeted purely at Milne.

"You're aboriginal * you" is targeted at Buddy/Goodes/whoever but suggests ANYONE who's aboriginal is lesser than others because of that.

Can't believe I'm having to explain this.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Rubbish.

"You're a rapist **** you" yelled at Milne is targeted purely at Milne.

"You're aboriginal **** you" is targeted at Buddy/Goodes/whoever but suggests ANYONE who's aboriginal is lesser than others because of that.

Can't believe I'm having to explain this.

"The aboriginal star"
Star who is aboriginal - aboriginal being an adjective and not the person

"The aboriginal dog"
Dog who is aboriginal - again, adjective

The first is just as racist as the second, race is describing a person. That's racist
This politically correct world has masked what racism actually is, discriminating or iscolating one race or culture

Regardless of whether it is positive or negative, it's still racist


Shaun Burgoyne said it best a few yrs ago On The Couch
Describing a player as indigenous is just as harmful as bad mouthing a player because of their race
Let their football do the talking, and racism becomes a non-issue

 

[ManWithNoName]

"The aboriginal star"
Star who is aboriginal - aboriginal being an adjective and not the person

"The aboriginal dog"
Dog who is aboriginal - again, adjective

The first is just as racist as the second, race is describing a person. That's racist
This politically correct world has masked what racism actually is, discriminating or iscolating one race or culture

Regardless of whether it is positive or negative, it's still racist


Shaun Burgoyne said it best a few yrs ago On The Couch
Describing a player as indigenous is just as harmful as bad mouthing a player because of their race
Let their football do the talking, and racism becomes a non-issue

Racist != racial abuse

 

[J_Moore]

You get a gold star for conspicuous outrage. I was just correcting an incorrect post, that's all.

Children were not removed to "breed them". That is just ridiculous. Yes, there was racism involved. They were taken away because of the belief (based in racism) that aboriginal mothers could not look after their children. Children were also taken away from white single mothers. Governments still do the same thing under the guise of "protecting children". It hasn't gone away.

It was considerably more complicated than you are making out. While the removal of children was officially done for reasons of welfare, the widespread understanding in late 19th century Australia was that Aboriginal people were primitive 'dying race' doomed to extinction by virtue of their genetic inability to civilise. The most humane response was to ease their passing from this world. This took two forms: segregation and the removal of children. For the most part, it wasn't done in a malicious nazi master-race kind if way, but the end result was intended to be much the same.

Obviously this becomes less-applicable as you move into the twentieth century, and isn't really the motivating force by the post-war period. That is a whole different kettle of fish in itself.

It's an interesting subject, and I can send you some reading on it if you'd like.

 

[romeoh]

History also says plenty of caucasians were also considered as low on the evolutionary scale. Or is this the part where you only want to acknowledge the parts of history that suit your agenda?



Being hurt by a comment does not make it racist.



Wow, the self righteous know it all is strong in this one.

The caucasians who were considered lower on the evolutionary scale-who do you refer to? Besides which, their skin color was presumably nothing to do with that determination.
Being hurt by a comment does make it offensive. Goodes explained that as an indigenous person he found that comment offensive/ racist-he is probably in a better position than you to make that judgement.
Haha yep a bit self- righteous, but its hard not to feel a bit superior in the face of such wilful ignorance.
And the intent was genuine- I hope young people are better educated about this issue so we get better attitudes in the future.

 

[GWSP]

The caucasians who were considered lower on the evolutionary scale-who do you refer to? Besides which, their skin color was presumably nothing to do with that determination.

The Irish, the Romani peoples to name a few. You do realise skin colour isn't the only basis for discrimination yeah? Discrimination is the same discrimination to the people on the end of it surely? Or are there self righteous people out there who go out and rank who is more worthy of being allowed to dictate every conversation?

Being hurt by a comment does make it offensive. Goodes explained that as an indigenous person he found that comment offensive/ racist-he is probably in a better position than you to make that judgement.

Thus confirming my original statement. The person who gets offended gets to set the tone and context of the word, even if the word and context are NOT what the person who said it meant. Agreed?

Haha yep a bit self- righteous, but its hard not to feel a bit superior in the face of such willful ignorance.
And the intent was genuine- I hope young people are better educated about this issue so we get better attitudes about this issue.

Ignoring people works much better. Reacting simply empowers those who try to offend others to keep doing it. People get bored pretty quickly of doing something if nobody responds to them. People who get outraged simply provide more fuel to the fire when others see how they react.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Thus confirming my original statement. The person who gets offended gets to set the tone and context of the word, even if the word and context are NOT what the person who said it meant. Agreed?

So who decides if something is offensive towards someone then? The person saying it? A neutral third party? Who?

Ignoring people works much better. Reacting simply empowers those who try to offend others to keep doing it. People get bored pretty quickly of doing something if nobody responds to them. People who get outraged simply provide more fuel to the fire when others see how they react.

Nothing was done about racial abuse in the AFL on field until someone (Michael Long and Nicky Winmar) stood up for themselves. They ignored it for decades. It happened for decades. They stood up for themselves. Something was done. Funny that.

 

[pokerspiv]

It's an interesting subject, and I can send you some reading on it if you'd like.

Please do

 

[GWSP]

So who decides if something is offensive towards someone then? The person saying it? A neutral third party? Who?

I'm not for the nanny state mentality so I don't view being "offended" as anything worthy of legislation or law.

Nothing was done about racial abuse in the AFL on field until someone (Michael Long and Nicky Winmar) stood up for themselves. They ignored it for decades. It happened for decades. They stood up for themselves. Something was done. Funny that.

Please don't compare Winmar to Goodes. The two aren't even close to being in the same boat.

 

[ManWithNoName]

I'm not for the nanny state mentality so I don't view being "offended" as anything worthy of legislation or law.



Please don't compare Winmar to Goodes. The two aren't even close to being in the same boat.

Go on.

 

[romeoh]

The Irish, the Romani peoples to name a few. You do realise skin colour isn't the only basis for discrimination yeah? Discrimination is the same discrimination to the people on the end of it surely? Or are there self righteous people out there who go out and rank who is more worthy of being allowed to dictate every conversation?



Thus confirming my original statement. The person who gets offended gets to set the tone and context of the word, even if the word and context are NOT what the person who said it meant. Agreed?



Ignoring people works much better. Reacting simply empowers those who try to offend others to keep doing it. People get bored pretty quickly of doing something if nobody responds to them. People who get outraged simply provide more fuel to the fire when others see how they react.

We are discussing racial discrimination re indigenous Australians, and the point was valid.
Your second point makes it too easy for poor behavior to flourish. Ignorance or carelessness does not diminish the offence.
The attitude you support in your third point- ignore it and it will go away, I suspect contributes to the racial discrimination that still exists in our community.

 

[GWSP]

Go on.

Pretty obvious. One was without a doubt racism, the other was percieved. Calling someone a "black ****" or similar is a totally different proposition to calling someone an Ape.

One of the dictionary for the meanings of Ape.

ape

4.
Informal. a big, ugly, clumsy person.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Pretty obvious. One was without a doubt racism, the other was percieved. Calling someone a "black ****" or similar is a totally different proposition to calling someone an Ape.

One of the dictionary for the meanings of Ape.

ape

4.
Informal. a big, ugly, clumsy person.

Ignorance. Worse, wilful ignorance.

 

[GWSP]

We are discussing racial discrimination re indigenous Australians, and the point was valid.

Glad you pointed that out. Thus people need to stop trying to link Indigenous Australians to people of African heritage. They are not the same people and neither are their histories.

Your second point makes it too easy for poor behavior to flourish. Ignorance or carelessness does not diminish the offence.

So your view is to take the facist state road and legislate and make laws for anything you don't agree with?

The attitude you support in your third point- ignore it and it will go away, I suspect contributes to the racial discrimination that still exists in our community.

I said stop empowering them. What power does a word have if nobody responds to it? None is the answer.

 

[romeoh]

Pretty obvious. One was without a doubt racism, the other was percieved. Calling someone a "black ****" or similar is a totally different proposition to calling someone an Ape.

One of the dictionary for the meanings of Ape.

ape

4.
Informal. a big, ugly, clumsy person.

His point was that when those player started to stand up and object to the racism they faced, things began to change. Your point was that ignoring it is better and he explained why that isn't the case here.
The connotations of calling a black person an ape have been explained by many posters. Its been explained several times that calling a white man an ape has different connotations.

 

[GWSP]

Ignorance. Worse, wilful ignorance.

That's you placing your context into what was said. In your mind words directed at the likes of Goodes or Franklin can only have racist undertones.

You don't care for the actual context of anything, just how your outraged self wants to percieve it.

 

[GWSP]

The connotation of calling a black person an ape have been explained by many posters. Its been explained several times that calling a white man an ape has different connotations.

Calling a black person of African heritage and Ape undoubtedly has a history of racial undertones. Except we're not talking about Africans or African Americans are we?

Seems the modern day bullshit is to link all black people into one big group. Something which sounds incredibly racist to me. Kind of like the old "all asians look the same" mentality.

You've transposed one peoples history and all of a sudden started arguing its another peoples history too.

 

[ManWithNoName]

That's you placing your context into what was said. In your mind words directed at the likes of Goodes can only have racist undertones.

You don't care for the actual context of anything, just how your outraged self wants to percieve it.

You: They're better off ignoring it. People will get bored.
Me: They ignored it for decades. When Nicky Winmar and Michael Long stood up, it stopped.
You: Don't bring up Nicky Winmar. They're different.

You're yet to articulate how, or what that's got to do with anything.

 

[GWSP]

You: They're better off ignoring it. People will get bored.
Me: They ignored it for decades. When Nicky Winmar and Michael Long stood up, it stopped.
You: Don't bring up Nicky Winmar. They're different.

You're yet to articulate how, or what that's got to do with anything.

I just did.

One was without a doubt racism, the other was percieved. Calling someone a "black ****" or similar is a totally different proposition to calling someone an Ape.

Winmar was taunted with racism. Goodes got called a word which has no relevance to Indigenous Australians history and is used far FAR more commonly to describe big ugly men.

 

[romeoh]

Glad you pointed that out. Thus people need to stop trying to link Indigenous Australians to people of African heritage. They are not the same people and neither are their histories.



So your view is to take the facist state road and legislate and make laws for anything you don't agree with?



I said stop empowering them. What power does a word have if nobody responds to it? None is the answer.

Good point - in fact the history of indigenous Australia is possibly even more dreadful than those of African heritage.( e.g. invaded, loss of everything, genocide) The racism and abuse, (the first point of contact being the language) and use of words that have certain negative associations has certainly pervaded Australia since the arrival of the English.( language analysis 101).
If a comment is offensive and that offence is explained and you understand and then apologise-that's probs ok. If it is explained, as it has been many times in Australia, and people still make that remark, then it is a problem. The young girl, says that now she understands the implications of that word, she regrets the remark but apparently you don't. So yep I'd like to make laws for people with attitudes like yours!
Again, your third point is meaningless.
So anyone can say anything to anyone and if you don't worry about it-its all good? Is that it? Beautiful.
And am pretty sure history would say you are not quite right on this one!