Science/Environment Anti-vacc Crazies at it again. Post appropriate outrage ITT

[Clubs are trumps]

It might be news to you that there is a world wide shortage of IC Nurses. Guess why?

Mate i work at the hospital i mentioned in my post above. Im giving an insight into whats happening. I watched my ex struggle to get employment as a nurse after graduating here during the outbreak of the pandemic, simply because she was born in Nepal. If you're going to ask a condescending sarcastic question you can cram it.

 

[Long Live HFC]

I linked to those articles because the reaction from you and partridge was that there's no research into gut flora and autism and it's crazy to think there could be a connection.

I've proved you wrong by those links.

i never claimed there wasn't an association. my central issue was that dr natasha is extremely uncredible*, her claims/panaceas were not supported by the evidence, and the medical fraternity at large seem to think she's a crank. i then asked you for research re gut flora and autism, and nothing you have shown me (or i have found) substantiate your claim that gut flora bacteria causes autism. subsequent to that, i now state that dr natasha's claims to "cure" autism through diet remain unfounded. at most she is treating symptoms re intestinal problems known to be prevelant in those with autism.

you get awfully defensive when asked to support the claims that you make?

*Her online store offers probiotics, books, DVDs, essential fatty acids, fermented cod liver oil, high vitamin butter, coconut oil, immune support supplements, essential oils, Cinderella’s organic multipurpose cleaner, hand sanitizers, a garden hose filter so your children can engage in “clean water fun”, and Urban Moonshine Organic Bitters, because bitter flavors are essential to good health because they stimulate the digestive system. You can be trained to become a GAPS practitioner in a two-day course for $1175. Training includes a business starter package.

 

[nicky]

i never claimed there wasn't an association. my central issue was that dr natasha is extremely uncredible, her claims/panaceas were not supported by the evidence, and the medical fraternity at large seem to think she's a crank. i then asked you for research re gut flora and autism, and nothing you have shown me (or i have found) substantiate your claim that gut flora bacteria causes autism. subsequent to that, i now state that dr natasha's claims to "cure" autism through diet remain unfounded. at most she is treating symptoms re intestinal problems known to be prevelant in those with autism.

you get awfully defensive when asked to support the claims that you make?

playing the man now

It's a bit annoying to have these kind of discussions with posters whose sole intention is to win internet battles with "conspiracy" woos.

You guys made out i was calling the earth flat by saying there's a connection between gut health and neuro diseases. The work Dr Natasha Mcbride wasn't enough and you dismissed it as quakary because in your 2 minutes of research you found a link that said as much. So i provided some links to research- I provided those links to prove that there's enough in it to compell serious resarch and i wasn't being a conspiracy theory nut.

Now I've "lost the argument again" because I haven't provided peer reviewed research which unequivocally proves autism is caused by abnormal gut flora and opportunistic bad bacteria.

You win this internet argument... Good for you. Thankfully you still know everything and no-one has learnt anything new here.

 

[Long Live HFC]

not playing the man, im just not sure why you're getting your knickers in a bunch.

no, i doubted that there is a link between gut health and every condition under the sun. that is a sure sign of quackiness. and the sources that i checked seemed to bear this out. given the whole 'vaccines cause autism' debacle i am interested in similar claims. i accepted the fact that there is reasonable grounds to argue that gut health impacts symtoms and severity of autism, but (and perhaps i didn't make myself clear, for which i apologise) my interest was related to claims re causes of autism (asides from natasha's quackery).

anyway, i'm sorry i pissed you off. but being asked to source claims isn't too great a burden i feel.

 

[Partridge]

Now I've "lost the argument again" because I haven't provided peer reviewed research which unequivocally proves autism is caused by abnormal gut flora and opportunistic bad bacteria.

You win this internet argument... Good for you. Thankfully you still know everything and no-one has learnt anything new here.

That's how real science works. Peer review sorts out the reality from the nonsense and is a brutal process. Don't go into it if you don't have thick skin.

The difference is we know we don't know everything, furthermore we know absolutely we might be wrong, but most of all - unless there is evidence for anything, it certainly isn't worth believing.

Something doesn't become true just because you want it to.

 

[Pie eyed]

I'm reading a fascinating book at the moment called "Gut and Psychology Syndrome - GAPS"

It links diseases like autism, schizophrenia, depression, ADHD and many others to the health of gut, intestines and overall digestive system - this includes immune system given that it's mainly in the gut as well.

The doctor who wrote the book, Dr Natasha Campbell-McBride, cured her son of autism through a diet invented in the 1930s, the specific carbohydrate diet - now known as the GAPS diet. She has a clinic in Cambridge which specialises working with families with autistic child or other GAPS related issues. Without going into too much detail but the reason she works with the whole family is children get their gut flora/immune from their parents, primarily their mother, so if the child has autism, it's guaranteed that atleast one of the parents have gut dysbiosis or leaky gut, defective immune system.

She wrote a chapter on autism and vaccination and basically says that although vaccinations don't CAUSE autism, they CAN be the "straw the broke the camels back" in a child who has unhealthy, abnormal gut flora and compromised immune system. She recommends moving to a single vaccination program rather than combining 3 like the MMR; and, to allow the option for parents to test their childs immunity and opt out of vaccinating them.

The book is fascinating and empowering given that these diseases can be overcome through establishing healthy gut and intestinal bacteria and controlling the opportunistic pathogens.

http://gapsaustralia.com.au/

Sounds positively optimistic for those seeking a means to empower themselves to self medicate their offspring with impunity.
That's really all you could possibly say.

 

[Pie eyed]

How is autism genetic?

If you're dismissing her indepth explanation of how a child develops autism due to abnormal gut flora which is passed on by one or both of the parents - (it's passed on when the baby makes it's way out of the mothers vagina by consuming mouthfuls of her vaginal muscous), then explain how autism is genetic?

People are so quick to call something genetic because they don't have a scientific explanation for how something is developed - then when one is provided they dismiss it without even understanding what it is.



You doubt it because you have no idea how important gut flora and intestinal health is. If someone told me this 2 years ago i would have had the same reaction as you, but when you start learning about how the bacteria in your gut works; its role in absorbing nutrients; the role they have in breaking down proteins to make nutrients; the toxins opportunistic pathegons release into your blood stream (which make their way to your brain)when you eat certain foods................................. well, it starts to make beautiful sense.

Before you dismiss it why don't you look into the work she's done curing autistic kids. For your own sake, i wouldn't dismiss the importance of gut health. It should be a very high priority for anyone who wants a healthy, high functioning brain and body.

Statistically, studies strongly suggest roughly 80% of autism spectrum disorders are rooted in the genetics of the parents and/or their family.
Similarly roughly 20% can be attributed in some way to metabolic disease.

The only actual study I could find on the specific question of a causal link.

http://jmm.sgmjournals.org/content/54/10/987.long

All 25 studies referred to as support for Dr Andrew Wakefield's theory, specifically acknowledge that Autism, Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD's) and related neurological disorders included in the subsequent studies are clearly genetic in origin and that GI (gastro intenstinal) complains and or Gut flora populations could possibly have some contributing or exacerbating role only.
None go on to suggest vaccination is at fault.
Links to all 25 "supporting" studies.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/04/10/wakefield-interview.aspx

Someone mentioned Autism and Gut Flora in the same sentence, some vaccines (but mainly antibiotics) can kill off gut flora, Autism is the pet stalking horse for the anti-vacc crazy.

Vaccines kill gut flora.
Gut Flora cause Autism.
Vaccines cause Autism.

Comprehension fail.

 

[evo]

The Specific Carbohydrate Diet is gaining popularity due to it's success in curing inflammatory and auto-immune diseases.

There are also relationships between mental illness/disease and abnormal gut flora, inflammation and auto immune disease - that is well established. You guys haven't made the connection and don't know about it but that doesn't mean much.*

*anything

very true

 

[clogged]

Relationships don't demonstrate causality.

 

[Grin]

Immunisations for viral infections likely have no effect whatsoever on bacterial gut flora.

 

[bkozican]

If you don't want the shot, don't have it. Just remember that you are now being transported to Tassie

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Yes it is a TAFE qualification.

Engineering Tradesperson.

Thats right, i make money, from my knowledge of my scientific field.

Therefore, not an anti science cwazy nutter. Just a psychopath.

dude really......... according to tafe every mother *er is an engineer ffs cleaners tafe course are hygienic engineers or some s**t.

actually list the "engineering" degree you have, then i'll explain to you why having a "trade" engineering degree is not a scientific field of study.

i once did a stint for an architect as an apprentice draughtsman, do you realise how many ******* tradies would send back plans saying this and this and this needed to be changed? at least 5-6 from each project do you know how many were reviewed and rejected because said change would cause a serious structural flaw? 95% thats before we look at things such as cost's and project time, legality, etc.

nothing makes me laugh harder then dumb ******* tradesman thinking they know better then people who have studied for years on one particularly field, all have a ******* chip on their shoulder about anyone attending Uni.

I still consult (to keep my qualification) from time to time because my father insisted i have a "degree to fall back on" unable to hack uni at the time i gave up on the whole architect thing and i went to Tafe and completed a "diploma" in engineering drafting at Ultmo, So i actually am fully aware of Tafe and it's unique take on what an 'engineer" is. because according to tafe i am one.

you brought it up so lets hear it what is this "qualification" of yours, mine has * all to do with scientific application it's very technical and boring as batshit but all i need to do is be able to draw things to scale and use the correct AS code's and representations.

so front up fellow "engineer" lets hear your degree? is it even a cert 4 "diploma" like mine?

 

[Pie eyed]

dude really......... according to tafe every mother goose is an engineer ffs cleaners tafe course are hygienic engineers or some s**t.

actually list the "engineering" degree you have, then i'll explain to you why having a "trade" engineering degree is not a scientific field of study.

i once did a stint for an architect as an apprentice draughtsman, do you realise how many ******* tradies would send back plans saying this and this and this needed to be changed? at least 5-6 from each project do you know how many were reviewed and rejected because said change would cause a serious structural flaw? 95% thats before we look at things such as cost's and project time, legality, etc.

nothing makes me laugh harder then dumb ******* tradesman thinking they know better then people who have studied for years on one particularly field, all have a ******* chip on their shoulder about anyone attending Uni.

I still consult (to keep my qualification) from time to time because my father insisted i have a "degree to fall back on" unable to hack uni at the time i gave up on the whole architect thing and i went to Tafe and completed a "diploma" in engineering drafting at Ultmo, So i actually am fully aware of Tafe and it's unique take on what an 'engineer" is. because according to tafe i am one.

you brought it up so lets hear it what is this "qualification" of yours, mine has **** all to do with scientific application it's very technical and boring as batshit but all i need to do is be able to draw things to scale and use the correct AS code's and representations.

so front up fellow "engineer" lets hear your degree? is it even a cert 4 "diploma" like mine?

Agree with the bulk of the post but most Architects would not know their structure from their a-hole. Engineers and builders make the graphic flights of fancy many architects dream up reality. Architects have no authority in regard to the physical requirements of a structure and it's properties. They are but the dreamers of the dreams.
PS.I am a Builder, of 35 years and my father is an engineer of 65.....
I have seen many an architect cry...
Cue a whiny architecture students reply.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Agree with the bulk of the post but most Architects would not know their structure from their a-hole. Engineers and builders make the graphic flights of fancy many architects dream up reality. Architects have no authority in regard to the physical requirements of a structure and it's properties. They are but the dreamers of the dreams.
PS.I am a Builder, of 35 years and my father is an engineer of 65.....
I have seen many an architect cry...
Cue a whiny architecture students reply.

actual architects? or that shitty tafe "architect's" that let them make up plans for everything bar A class Structures? because those guys are complete *******'s.

Most Architects i know (all 3 of them) work hand in hand with structural engineers (most employ them on their staff) some ******* designing s**t for masterdon homes isn't a real architect.

 

[Chameleon75]

actual architects? or that shitty tafe "architect's" that let them make up plans for everything bar A class Structures? because those guys are complete *******'s.

Most Architects i know (all 3 of them) work hand in hand with structural engineers (most employ them on their staff) some ******* designing s**t for masterdon homes isn't a real architect.

What architectural firms employ structural engineers on staff? Architects will incorporate structural advise but know little of the structure itself other than what they've picked up from engineers along the way.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

What architectural firms employ structural engineers on staff? Architects will incorporate structural advise but know little of the structure itself other than what they've picked up from engineers along the way.

Well it may not be common practice like i believed it was but both Gensler and woods bagot do, they are on staff as consultants and are used throughout the design process. (obviously only on big job's)

 

[Chameleon75]

Well it may not be common practice like i believed it was but both Gensler and woods bagot do, they are on staff as consultants and are used throughout the design process. (obviously only on big job's)

haven't worked with gensler, worked on quite a few projects with woods bagot and they don't have engineers on staff, there's always consulting engineers on the project team (hence my involvement), often the architect is the lead consultant and will appoint them but there not staff, rathers sub consultants engaged under a seperate consultancy agreement.

edit
and your earlier comments about builders was incorrect, they nearly always have input during design phase or value management once appointed preferred tenderer. There input into costs and buildability is vital, a building can be designed many ways but each builder has there prefered construction methodology and the design is adjusted to suit.

 

[Grin]

I guess the question is:
Does someone with a Cert IV from TAFE have a greater understanding of the science surrounding vaccination than the combined knowledge of all of the worlds credible scientists and specialists in the area?
Or, as mentioned earlier, is vealesy a victim of the Dunning-Kruger effect?

 

[nicky]

Agree with the bulk of the post but most Architects would not know their structure from their a-hole. Engineers and builders make the graphic flights of fancy many architects dream up reality. Architects have no authority in regard to the physical requirements of a structure and it's properties. They are but the dreamers of the dreams.
PS.I am a Builder, of 35 years and my father is an engineer of 65.....
I have seen many an architect cry...
Cue a whiny architecture students reply.

Errr what?
That is exactly the difference between an architect and a draftsman or designer. An architect has to consider physical requirements of the structure and regulations.

and Yes i know a few architects, one who got their degree from UoM and a few, including my cousin and best friend, who did their 5 year masters degree at RMIT.

Most people on this site talk so much s**t. I just opened 3 threads in the space of one minute and read 3 completely incorrect posts. Another one from fat city talking about the obesity problem arising from people watching too much TV.

Is it so hard to stfu when you don't know what you're talking about? It is for you lot, isn't it?

 

[nicky]

I guess the question is:
Does someone with a Cert IV from TAFE have a greater understanding of the science surrounding vaccination than the combined knowledge of all of the worlds credible scientists and specialists in the area?
Or, as mentioned earlier, is vealesy a victim of the Dunning-Kruger effect?

No offense but you and your mates don't come across as very smart yourselves. You just gang up on people and masturbate each other how smart you all are, which you believe because of the sheer volume of you on this board.

All your views are so fking predictable and often simplified because you actually don't know what you're talking about - you just like make believing that you do. Anti vacc people are crazy and nothing from that camp deserves one second of attention; anyone who believes in god is an idiot; portion sizes determine how fat or thin you are etc, etc, etc, etc.

You're boring and predictable.

Dunning Kruger effect indeed.

 

[Grin]

No offense but you and your mates don't come across as very smart yourselves. You just gang up on people and masturbate each other how smart you all are, which you believe because of the sheer volume of you on this board.

All your views are so fking predictable and often simplified because you actually don't know what you're talking about - you just like make believing that you do. Anti vacc people are crazy and nothing from that camp deserves one second of attention; anyone who believes in god is an idiot; portion sizes determine how fat or thin you are etc, etc, etc, etc.

You're boring and predictable.

Dunning Kruger effect indeed.

Luv ya Nicky.
But the overwhelming, perhaps all, of the credible evidence supports vaccination.
The anti-vacc lobby clasps onto any discredited research yet dismisses, out of hand, all of the credible science, preferring to spurt conspiracy theories about all of the worlds scientists, doctors and governments having secretly united for the benefit of share holders of a few pharmaceutical multinationals. It's ridiculous.

Let's look at a real conspiracy: that of cigarette multinationals. Eventually scientists and doctors debunked their myths. Governments have come along and are increasing hammering these multinationals. Same with Asbestos. Why do you think pharmaceutical companies have gotten away with what would be by far, the biggest conspiracy, times 1000, that the world has ever seen.
The answer is that they haven't, because there is no such conspiracy.

Vaccines have saved countless millions of lives and immense suffering.

 

[nicky]

Never said that vaccinations don't save lives - stop using that as an argument against me.

I posted research and good scientific info on how gut flora could cause autism which is dismissed by you "know it alls". You dismiss it without knowing what you're on about. You've chosen a side that you think is the most rational and "smartest" and are sticking to it like fundamentalists. You are paranoid and reject anything you suspect might encroach on your side of the argument.... Same as every other thread on this board.

As i said, you're all boring and predictable. This board sucks because of you and your ilk.

 

[Grin]

To the far right climate change deniers, scientists are involved in a massive communist conspiracy theory to take over the world.
To the left Anti-Vacc mob, scientists are all working hand in hand with multinationals in a conspiracy to harm children for profit.

I think both sides are fools.
I would think them a joke, but they both have the potential to cause cause great harm.
A common denominator of the supports of both of these diametrically opposed conspiracy theories is that they are generally scientific illiterate.

 

[Grin]

I posted research and good scientific info on how gut flora could cause autism which is dismissed by you "know it alls". You dismiss it without knowing what you're on about.

I didn't dismiss it. I think it unlikely, but I didn't dismiss it.
What I said was that it is unlikely that immunisations against viral illnesses have any effect on gut flora.

We know surprisingly little about gut flora. I think only about 20% has been identified and it may play a significant role in obesity and any number of diseases.
It's a real 'watch this space' area of science and there is much work to be done.

 

[Grin]

As i said, you're all boring and predictable. This board sucks because of you and your ilk.

To you, crazy conspiracy theories may seem exciting
Maybe I'm a bit of a nerd, but I don't find science boring and predictable.

You sound like a petulant teenager.

 

[cartwright]

An interesting article

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/18/autistic-children-gut-flora.aspx

I think vaccinations have their place, I'm not anti vaccine but I do think the rise in autism etc - there could be a link