Are Hawthorn better now than they were in the 1980's?

[IschenkoUBeauty]

After the Lions three-peated in the early 2000s...it was very hard to see another team doing it again. Worth nothing that the Hawks have also played in four GFs in a row in an age of equalisation.

 

[Pavlovs Cat]

Even when we do win 2015 , the current team still won't be the equal of the 80s team..........which is the greatest in the history of football.

Hawthorn 80s, and in particular 88-89 was the best team I have seen. Champions on every line. When you had a good player you replaced him with a champion, e.g. Platten for Loveridge. That defence with Langford, Mew and Ayres. Dermie and Dunstall up forward and freak players like Buckenara and later Jarman and sheer toughness of Dipper. They are a great team to admire and even greater team to hate. In 89 it was the best and the worst game for us Cat fans. We can only wonder what difference it might have made had we played the ball and not the man in that first quarter. We gave it everything we had and more but came up short by a goal.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

This is an interesting thread topic.

Hawthorn made 7 GF's in succession, if you decide to include 2011 (when the club missed out on a GF by 3 points) you can probably extend the Hawthorn 1980s era to cover 1982 - 1991 (with a bookmark where the Hawks made the PF in 1982 and were eliminated 1st week of the finals in 1990).

2011 - 2014 compares favourably with 1982-1985 and 1988-1991...depending on how the Hawks go in 2015 we can extend the comparison out to include 1982-1986 and 1987-1991

Hawthorn 2011 - 2014 vs. Hawthorn 1982 - 1986 vs. Hawthorn 1987 - 1991

Hawthorn 2011 - 2014
2011 - PF (lost to Coll by 3 points) (19/6) (1/2 in finals)
2012 - GF (lost to Syd by 10 points) (19/6) (2/1 in finals)
2013 - Flag (defeated Frem by 15 points) (22/3) (3/0 in finals)
2014 - Flag (defeated Syd by 63 points) (20/5) (3/0 in finals)
2015 - TBC
Total - 2 flags from 3 GF's (80% win/loss, 75% in finals)

Hawthorn 1982 - 1986
1982 - PF (lost to Carl by 31 points) (18/7) (1/2 in finals)
1983 - Flag (defeated Ess by 83 points) (18/7) (3/0 in finals)
1984 - GF (lost to Ess by 24 points) (19/6) (2/1 in finals)
1985 - GF (lost to Ess by 78 points) (17/1/8) (2/2 in finals)
1986 - Flag (defeated Carl by 42 points) (20/5) (2/1 in finals)
Total - 2 flags from 4 GF's (72.83% win/loss, 62.5% in finals)

Hawthorn 1987 - 1991
1987 - GF (lost to Carl by 33 points) (19/7) (1/2 in finals)
1988 - Flag (defeated Melb by 96 points) (21/3) (2/0 in finals)
1989 - Flag (defeated Geel by 6 points) (21/3) (2/0 in finals)
1990 - EF (lost to Melb by 9 points) (14/9) (0/1 in finals)
1991 - Flag (defeated WCE by 53 points) (19/6) (3/0 in finals)
Total - 3 flags from 4 GF's (77.04% win/loss, 72.72% in finals)

Hawthorn 2011/2014 needs to qualify for another GF to surpass 1982-1986 and they need to win another premiership to surpass 1987-1991. Collectively they are a mile off replicating 1982-1991...

That said, 2008-2014 Hawthorn has effectively mirrored 1971-1978 Hawthorn

1971 - 1978 vs 2008 - 2014
1971 21/3 (153.65) 1st, Premiers
1972 13/9 (111.7) 6th
1973 11/11 (109.59) 7th
1974 16/9 (125.39) 3rd, Prelim Final
1975 19/6 (137.35) 1st, Runners Up
1976 19/6 (114.10) 2nd, Premiers
1977 18/7 (133.64) 2nd, Prelim Final
1978 19/6 (117.74) 2nd, Premiers

Compared to...
2008 20/5 (131.85) 2nd, Premiers
2009 9/13 (92.55) 9th
2010 12/1/10 (110.97) 7th, Elim Final
2011 19/6 (144.10) 3rd, Prelim Final
2012 19/6 (154.59) 1st, Runner Up
2013 22/3 (135.72) 1st, Premiers
2014 20/5 (140.78) 2nd, Premiers

1971 - 1978: 3 flags, 4 GF's, 70.466 Win Loss
2008 - 2014: 3 flags, 4 GF's, 71.47 Win Loss

Both eras are basically identical, which makes the comparison to the 70s teams interesting.

In terms of domination I would say that 1971 and 2013 were very similar with 2008 and 2014 matching 1976 and 1978 for season dominance.

From '76 there were 6 players that played in '83 and from '78 there were 10 still going in '83. Matthews, Tuck, Wallace, Dipper, Paton, O'Halloran (played '76 missed '78), Knights, Eade, Russo (played '78 missed '83 played '86), McCarthy and 4 from '78 were still going in '86.

That's probably enough for me to have the 80s side run from '75 to '91, considering if we're going to include '08 with the current 3peat side, there were only 9 players from '08 that played in '13 and 6 from '08 in the '14 side.

1975 to 1991 - 7 flags, 11 GF's.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

I would put them on a par now.

'83-'91: 5 flags from 8 GF appearances in 9 years, including a back to back.

'08-'15: 4 flags from 5 GF appearances in 9 years, including a 3-peat.

Looking at that, it still looks like 83-91 has the edge. But you need to look more deeply at it. More teams and greater equalisation measures make it more difficult to win flags, and the 3-peat lifts the modern Hawks into that stratosphere.

I think the equalisation part of it is a bit muddy by this side. They had priority picks (yes Geelong had f/s players), they've been the best at the right time with the compromised drafts and have been able to identify shortcomings and cherry pick players to suit (which every other club can do, Hawthorn have done it exceptionally well) so in this instance, I don't think it's been more difficult, as I said earlier, they've been the best side at the best time.

There's been an alignment of the stars to a certain degree and the Hawks have been good enough to make out like bandits.

• Has access to priority picks when they were much easier to obtain compared to now.(everyone was subject to the same rules,you just had to be bad enough)
• Richmond take Tambling
• 3 or 4 years of GC and GWS pillaging the draft, denying potential challengers from having access to better talent.
• Burgoyne, Gibson, Gunston, Hale, Lake, McEvoy and now Frawley (brilliant recruiting)
• Not backing up with a finals appearance in '09, may not have got Smith otherwise.
• Clarkson / Dunstall / Buckenara

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

From '76 there were 6 players that played in '83 and from '78 there were 10 still going in '83. Matthews, Tuck, Wallace, Dipper, Paton, O'Halloran (played '76 missed '78), Knights, Eade, Russo (played '78 missed '83 played '86), McCarthy and 4 from '78 were still going in '86.

That's probably enough for me to have the 80s side run from '75 to '91, considering if we're going to include '08 with the current 3peat side, there were only 9 players from '08 that played in '13 and 6 from '08 in the '14 side.

1975 to 1991 - 7 flags, 11 GF's.

When you think about it like that it's one heck of an era.

 

[Lethality]

If Hawthorn had won all 3 in 5 years, including the back to back, then yeah, I'd say that's probably harder. But winning alternate years over 5 (3 flags), including an all time record win/loss ration, is harder than winning 3 in 7 years including one year missing the finals altogether and another in 7th position.

You forget the fact that two of them were won in successive years, which is a rare feat. Plenty of teams win one-off flags like Geelong did, it happens every year in fact.

And then there's the fact that Hawthorn won every knockout final Geelong and Hawthorn played in their respective eras.

Hawthorn win this one, even without the threepeat.

 

[Hawkk]

You forget the fact that two of them were won in successive years, which is a rare feat. Plenty of teams win one-off flags like Geelong did, it happens every year in fact.

And then there's the fact that Hawthorn won every knockout final Geelong and Hawthorn played in their respective eras.

Hawthorn win this one, even without the threepeat.

This is retrospective as the thread was created in November 2014

...but clearly 4 flags in 8 years is vastly superior to 3 flags in 5 years. Before the 2015 GF it was an altogether different proposition

 

[Vass]

I was not alive in the 80s so can not comment on that. But this side is the best I have seen throughout my time. Better then lions in the early 2000s and better then Geelong. They have one 3 in a raw in dominant fashion to go with there 2008 flag. They are crazy good. In saying that, I think next year, might be the first that they drop off a bit. but who knows.

 

[Procrastinator35]

We're close....Win in 2016 & I'll give em the nod.

 

[Hawkk]

Hawthorn 1980s (really 1975-1991) and 2008-16 vying with Dees 1950s/60s (1954-64) and Pies 1920s/30s (1925-36) for the GOAT

#hawthornproblems

 

[MistyAvalon]

just different

 

[Sando22]

Nope.