Thread to discuss Australia's poor results on the dry grassless wickets of the sub continent and to get people's opinions on the matter.
First of all I'll give my opinion and it starts from the top and goes all the way down to the bottom.
1. Our attitude.
Australians see dry, grassless dusty spinning decks and we carry on how it's cheating, unfair and it shouldn't be blah blah blah. Firstly I don't agree. Both teams play on the same wicket, the wickets are consistently like this so we know what we are facing before we pick a squad and get on the plane. Teams from the subcontinent come out here and play on fast, grassy, green bouncy decks that can crack and are extremely pace friendly, it's the same disadvantage out here for them as it is to us over there. I'd hate to see all wickets the same, every ground should have it's character, it's what makes the game so interesting and unique. If the wicket is safe to play on, gets to the 4th day and ends in a result it's a good test wicket. We need to learn to accept it and embrace it.
2. Our domestic Competition.
When we go over there we go in blind, we don't know who is suitable to play in these conditions, if we want to have success over there we need one of our grounds a spinning fortress. The SCG used to be a real spinning venue but this isn't really the case anymore. What domestic players can bat/bowl on dry, low, spinning decks? Who knows.
3. The selectors.
They don't seem to realise that it's a different game over there. At least now they are half trying to pick more applicable teams. The problem is that they are putting far too much emphasis on players domestic statistics which really is fairly irrelevant.
We realise we need extra spinners. We pick Lyon as our locked in spinner and O'Keefe because he has the best domestic record. This is never going to work. Lyon is an over-spin bowler, he gets bounce and dip rather than drift and spin which again suits our bouncing wickets fine but not wickets that don't bounce. He doesn't get wickets in the last innings and in the sub continent because of this, no bounce. O'Keefe did ok but... These batsmen grow up facing and eating bowlers like this for breakfast. Our finger spinners have no variation. These guys are used to spinners who have variation like a doosera. our finger spinners are not threatening at all. Lyon doesn't even have a straight sliding ball!
Yes we need a finger spinner because they are useful and can bowl a lot of overs and get a few wickets but we should never never never go to the sub continent without a wrist spinner.
We have decent wrist spinners in Australia, we won't play them. Fawad Ahmed, Adam Zampa and James Muirhead would all have done better in the sub continent than any of the bowlers selected in the squad to play Pakistan. You don't need to be a big turner of the ball or take a load of wickets in Australia's domestic comp, just have to be able to land it and bowl the odd slider and/or wrong-un. None of the subcontinent spinners turn the ball out here but clean up back home. Kumble, the 3rd greatest test bowler ever wasn't a big turner of the ball, not for a leggie. Yasir Shah is a good bowler but I don't think he's a lot of different to our Leggies. He took 7 wickets in the first innings. He wouldn't do overly well in Australia, I don't think he'd do any better than the guys I have mentioned. I think it says it all when Steve Smith who is a genuine part time wrist spinner is looking the most dangerous out of all our bowlers.
We're getting taught a lesson, but I doubt we are learning, too stubborn and stuck in our ways, too scared to play a young legspinner.
Don't play two finger spinners EVER! A finger spinner and a wrist spinner is the recipe for success in the subcontinent.
Ignore Fawad Ahmed, Adam Zampa and James Muirhead's domestic statistics. They will turn it over there and be much more difficult to play, they won't get smashed like they do at times here, pick a guy who can land them and bowl a few variations. They will do twice as good over there in the test arena as they will in Australia's domestic comp.
4. Our Tactics/Captaincy/Bowling/Fielding.
Firstly Michael Clarke is a very good captain on pace friendly wickets. Wickets that have grass, bounce and provide sideways movement. All out attack, bowl fast, get a bit out of Lyon who is a bounce bowler rather than a turner of the ball. That's fine but over there it's only applicable for the first 10 or so overs. Firstly there's not a lot of bounce or speed so slips, keeper and short leg aren't much use after 10 overs. The seam is grinded off the ball by the 10th over or earlier so there goes seam movement and swing. Eventually you might get a bit of reverse swing or roll a finger over a ball and get it to cut but that is all that is there for the quicks.
Clarke's aggressive fields and straight attacking bowling are set for edges/bowled/lbw which won't come through lack of sideways movement and bounce. Yes we should attack and set an orthodox field for the first 10 overs because the new ball does a bit but after that is when we have to change.
What we are doing wrong
Bowling too straight, attacking the stumps too much and giving the batsmen too many easy 1s and 2s. Sub continent batsmen are very good off their legs generally. We're failing to put pressure on the batsmen and force false/bad shots. We're bowling too inaccurately and not to a plan that will work over there. Clarke has shown he has no idea over there, needs to study how cricket is played over there and how fields are set and bowlers bowl to them. Should talk to Gilchrist who seems to get it. We're trying too much, showing very little patience, trying to force wickets rather than letting them come.
What we should be doing
1. Set an aggressive field and bowl full and straight in the first 10 overs.
2. After this play boring, long, drawn out low scoring cricket. Don't fear the draw. Defend strongly to attack. Stack the off side (A slip, gully, point, heavily loaded covers, mid on and mid off etc). Bowl a foot outside off stump, get the batsman driving, test their ability to cut, build loads of pressure, bowl a lot of dots and force a false shot. Get the batsman reaching for the odd wide one, tempt them to hit the wrong ball through a vacant mid wicket, test the batsman's patience to leave. These guys can work off their legs all day. Eventually the batsmen will find himself not scoring enough and be forced to score with risk. A genuine battle of patience, it what won us a rare series win in india when Gilchrist implicated it. Our bowlers will need to be disciplined and skilled enough to vary their length, pace and bowl a few cutters.
3. Reverse Swing. Thought we'd see it more. If we do this is when we can try bowling straight but with a heavily stacked onside, still got to cut off the ones and twos.
4. Finger spinners, less men around the bat, it's not bouncing, more men saving ones and twos, build pressure, force a big shot, have a man out at cow/mid wicket for the slog.
We can't let them score as quickly as we have, given them far too many ones and twos, have failed to set fields that get batsmen caught in front of the wicket. Failed to get batsmen driving in the air.
Batting
Looked to have shown a lack of patience, not sure constantly charging the spinners is a really good idea. Like Warner's dashing at the start but out middle order has been dreadful. Warner plays the ball on it's length very well and is good on the back foot which is a reason for his success. We aren't good enough on the back foot generally, their batsmen look to play spinners on the back foot a bit when they can whereas Australian batsman tend to be front foot first. They really watch it off the wicket and pick the length up much better than us. We look to try and hit it harder than they do, we're going for boundaries, they are happy with ones and twos. We're also ordinary at sweeping.
First of all I'll give my opinion and it starts from the top and goes all the way down to the bottom.
1. Our attitude.
Australians see dry, grassless dusty spinning decks and we carry on how it's cheating, unfair and it shouldn't be blah blah blah. Firstly I don't agree. Both teams play on the same wicket, the wickets are consistently like this so we know what we are facing before we pick a squad and get on the plane. Teams from the subcontinent come out here and play on fast, grassy, green bouncy decks that can crack and are extremely pace friendly, it's the same disadvantage out here for them as it is to us over there. I'd hate to see all wickets the same, every ground should have it's character, it's what makes the game so interesting and unique. If the wicket is safe to play on, gets to the 4th day and ends in a result it's a good test wicket. We need to learn to accept it and embrace it.
2. Our domestic Competition.
When we go over there we go in blind, we don't know who is suitable to play in these conditions, if we want to have success over there we need one of our grounds a spinning fortress. The SCG used to be a real spinning venue but this isn't really the case anymore. What domestic players can bat/bowl on dry, low, spinning decks? Who knows.
3. The selectors.
They don't seem to realise that it's a different game over there. At least now they are half trying to pick more applicable teams. The problem is that they are putting far too much emphasis on players domestic statistics which really is fairly irrelevant.
We realise we need extra spinners. We pick Lyon as our locked in spinner and O'Keefe because he has the best domestic record. This is never going to work. Lyon is an over-spin bowler, he gets bounce and dip rather than drift and spin which again suits our bouncing wickets fine but not wickets that don't bounce. He doesn't get wickets in the last innings and in the sub continent because of this, no bounce. O'Keefe did ok but... These batsmen grow up facing and eating bowlers like this for breakfast. Our finger spinners have no variation. These guys are used to spinners who have variation like a doosera. our finger spinners are not threatening at all. Lyon doesn't even have a straight sliding ball!
Yes we need a finger spinner because they are useful and can bowl a lot of overs and get a few wickets but we should never never never go to the sub continent without a wrist spinner.
We have decent wrist spinners in Australia, we won't play them. Fawad Ahmed, Adam Zampa and James Muirhead would all have done better in the sub continent than any of the bowlers selected in the squad to play Pakistan. You don't need to be a big turner of the ball or take a load of wickets in Australia's domestic comp, just have to be able to land it and bowl the odd slider and/or wrong-un. None of the subcontinent spinners turn the ball out here but clean up back home. Kumble, the 3rd greatest test bowler ever wasn't a big turner of the ball, not for a leggie. Yasir Shah is a good bowler but I don't think he's a lot of different to our Leggies. He took 7 wickets in the first innings. He wouldn't do overly well in Australia, I don't think he'd do any better than the guys I have mentioned. I think it says it all when Steve Smith who is a genuine part time wrist spinner is looking the most dangerous out of all our bowlers.
We're getting taught a lesson, but I doubt we are learning, too stubborn and stuck in our ways, too scared to play a young legspinner.
Don't play two finger spinners EVER! A finger spinner and a wrist spinner is the recipe for success in the subcontinent.
Ignore Fawad Ahmed, Adam Zampa and James Muirhead's domestic statistics. They will turn it over there and be much more difficult to play, they won't get smashed like they do at times here, pick a guy who can land them and bowl a few variations. They will do twice as good over there in the test arena as they will in Australia's domestic comp.
4. Our Tactics/Captaincy/Bowling/Fielding.
Firstly Michael Clarke is a very good captain on pace friendly wickets. Wickets that have grass, bounce and provide sideways movement. All out attack, bowl fast, get a bit out of Lyon who is a bounce bowler rather than a turner of the ball. That's fine but over there it's only applicable for the first 10 or so overs. Firstly there's not a lot of bounce or speed so slips, keeper and short leg aren't much use after 10 overs. The seam is grinded off the ball by the 10th over or earlier so there goes seam movement and swing. Eventually you might get a bit of reverse swing or roll a finger over a ball and get it to cut but that is all that is there for the quicks.
Clarke's aggressive fields and straight attacking bowling are set for edges/bowled/lbw which won't come through lack of sideways movement and bounce. Yes we should attack and set an orthodox field for the first 10 overs because the new ball does a bit but after that is when we have to change.
What we are doing wrong
Bowling too straight, attacking the stumps too much and giving the batsmen too many easy 1s and 2s. Sub continent batsmen are very good off their legs generally. We're failing to put pressure on the batsmen and force false/bad shots. We're bowling too inaccurately and not to a plan that will work over there. Clarke has shown he has no idea over there, needs to study how cricket is played over there and how fields are set and bowlers bowl to them. Should talk to Gilchrist who seems to get it. We're trying too much, showing very little patience, trying to force wickets rather than letting them come.
What we should be doing
1. Set an aggressive field and bowl full and straight in the first 10 overs.
2. After this play boring, long, drawn out low scoring cricket. Don't fear the draw. Defend strongly to attack. Stack the off side (A slip, gully, point, heavily loaded covers, mid on and mid off etc). Bowl a foot outside off stump, get the batsman driving, test their ability to cut, build loads of pressure, bowl a lot of dots and force a false shot. Get the batsman reaching for the odd wide one, tempt them to hit the wrong ball through a vacant mid wicket, test the batsman's patience to leave. These guys can work off their legs all day. Eventually the batsmen will find himself not scoring enough and be forced to score with risk. A genuine battle of patience, it what won us a rare series win in india when Gilchrist implicated it. Our bowlers will need to be disciplined and skilled enough to vary their length, pace and bowl a few cutters.
3. Reverse Swing. Thought we'd see it more. If we do this is when we can try bowling straight but with a heavily stacked onside, still got to cut off the ones and twos.
4. Finger spinners, less men around the bat, it's not bouncing, more men saving ones and twos, build pressure, force a big shot, have a man out at cow/mid wicket for the slog.
We can't let them score as quickly as we have, given them far too many ones and twos, have failed to set fields that get batsmen caught in front of the wicket. Failed to get batsmen driving in the air.
Batting
Looked to have shown a lack of patience, not sure constantly charging the spinners is a really good idea. Like Warner's dashing at the start but out middle order has been dreadful. Warner plays the ball on it's length very well and is good on the back foot which is a reason for his success. We aren't good enough on the back foot generally, their batsmen look to play spinners on the back foot a bit when they can whereas Australian batsman tend to be front foot first. They really watch it off the wicket and pick the length up much better than us. We look to try and hit it harder than they do, we're going for boundaries, they are happy with ones and twos. We're also ordinary at sweeping.
