Roast Australian Politics Stuffing Up Australia - Treasurer Joe Hockey Pg26

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NT.Thunder said:
Nobody wants to beat up on the little kids, the poor or disadvantaged but at the same time, we need to isolate the truly poor and disadvantaged and not the lazy. I'm certainly not pointing fingers but there are a lot of people that choose not to work or claim disabilities and disadvantages that ultimately hurt the truly dependent amongst us.
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The time honoured conservative bullshit regarding welfare recipients. Those lazy feckless bastards should just get offa their collective fat arses and get a job.
 
NT.Thunder said:
You're right and I'm not concerned about debt overly if it's being used for the right purposes. I think like many have alluded to being in debt in this current climate is not all that bad.

I've got a good example where it hasn't been well managed at my local council level.

Around 3 weeks ago, our local council sent out notices stating that they were proposing a rates increase by a little over 10%. That's a pretty big jump considering an independent body had set the increase for I think around 3%.

Anyway, they cited their current debt situation and through poor management hadn't factored in depreciation of assets over the years which had resulted in this massive debt becoming apparent all of a sudden. They also had a list of asset works that were critical like repairing roads and bridges, something they don't do well.

This council over the years had got themselves into a pickle through poor investment through the SE and property. Services provided in our area are minimal considering we are rural, many don't even have rubbish collection or their roads maintained yet pay massive rates as property owners.

The scheduled meeting was heated and some interesting things came out of it. It seems a couple of months earlier the council conducted their usual monthly meeting but closed it to the public, declaring confidential information was being discussed. Turned out in this time of the council struggling they were meeting to discuss a pay rise to the Council GM. Not a small pay rise, a $35,000 annual payrise taking his package to roughly $220k. you could imagine how that went down. the council had done no cost saving analysis of their own backyard, they spend thousand each year on wine and food after each meeting, they all have personalised number plates and hold multi-million dollar properties around the region, yet they were trying to impose a 10% rate hike. You can just imagine how well this is going down and has turned a little nasty.

All governments are deceitful. they all make make decisions and have poor judgement when conducting themselves and people are certainly getting sick of it. With media 24/7 now through twitter and facebook and the like, they can't expect to get away with anything and the media can quiet easily overturn a government IMO - I know Abbott still stands but for how long.
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Wow, vote them out, which party are they aligned with?
If they were paying the carbon tax levy on rubbish removal, you should have received a discount.
Shame only you and the people that live in the area know this, they should be exposed. Seem like only welfare reciepients and the disabled are on the front page.
 
CLUBMEDhurst said:
The time honoured conservative bullshit regarding welfare recipients. Those lazy feckless bastards should just get offa their collective fat arses and get a job.
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That is not bloody everybody mate.

That is very Stereotypical stance you have taken:mad:
 

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CLUBMEDhurst said:
Dave, I was parrotting the usual garbage used by conservatives
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Well I did not come across like that.

Though it does sound like what the Liberal’s would say
 
ottoman said:
Hey TD I think you owe clubmedurst an apology. I think he was saying that those sorts of opinions about welfare recipients is bullshit.
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I posted above what I thought I read
 
76woodenspooners said:
What is an acceptable level of debt?

And does it matter what the debt is used for? Some might reasonably argue that going into debt to build a University is different to going into debt to give public servants a pay rise (or even giving everybody a handout as K.Rudd did)

Of course we could spend a lot of time pouring over government budget papers to make informed decisions.

Or we could (at our peril) trust what the ratings agencies tell us (look at how the GFC happened in the first place) ... Oh, and what's an acceptable credit rating?

Or we could just keep it simple and keep a balanced (or a cash flow positive) budget with no debt. It shouldn't be that hard.
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There is no exact number that is an acceptable debt, any debt that is manageable and is being used in the right way is an acceptable debt.

People have this idea that debt is bad, which is really not true. Going into debt at certain times is critical for a healthy economy. Debt is normally good (unless it gets out of control)

Politicians making a big fuss over being debt free by a certain year is good politics but terrible economic management.
 
Kappa said:
Isn't that a bit Hypocritical TD?

You get mad at him for using stereotypes then make one of your own
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Well sort of but they show that threw there Actions
 
Kappa said:
There is no exact number that is an acceptable debt, any debt that is manageable and is being used in the right way is an acceptable debt.
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How does the electorate judge "debt that is manageable"?

How does the electorate judge if debt is being "used in the right way"? Doesn't that generally refer to a phenomenon known as 'pork barreling'?

I'd doubt very strongly that the voters who control the balance of power would make decisions about debt that would fall into your definition of "used in the right way"

People have this idea that debt is bad, which is really not true. Going into debt at certain times is critical for a healthy economy.
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Yes, I trust myself to make the right decisions about my own personal debt profile.

But I simply don't trust the electorate and politicians to make the right decisions about government debt. Look at that graph you posted in this thread about government debt around the world - it's a roll call of basket case democracies whose electorates allowed politicians' spending to get out of control.

We can be confident that every single one of them started out with "debt is OK" and it then became a slippery slope which may lead them to financial oblivion.

Debt is normally good
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Good debt is often good, but not always (see Ireland a.k.a 'The Celtic Tiger')

Bad debt is always bad (see Greece)

(unless it gets out of control)
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But if it gets out of control, isn't it too late?

There are all these arbitrary terms "acceptable debt", "[debt] being used in the right way", "unless [debt] gets out of control" which are very subjective and impossible for the electorate to assess.

I'm just suggesting that it should all be simplified to a binary state that everybody can understand: are we in debt or aren't we?

If we are not in debt then everything is good. If we are in debt - we may be good or we may not, but I'd prefer the electorate didn't have try and figure it out.

Politicians making a big fuss over being debt free by a certain year is good politics but terrible economic management.
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I don't understand how it can be terrible economic management? Sure, we are probably missing out on a bit of cheap money - but hey, surely that's not the end of the world? And surely that's not deserving of the description 'terrible'?

I'd suggest that the reason Australia is in a favourable position on your graph - and the reason our debt levels aren't that of USA / Italy / Greece is because we are fortunate to live in a country where the term "debt free" carries a reasonable amount of political caché.
 
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NT.Thunder said:
Some more news on the potential sub build in Australia - Another puff piece though filled with inaccurate information, although does make some good points I think most agree with.

http://www.news.com.au/national/we-explain-whats-going-on-with-the-submarines-why-theyll-probably-be-built-in-japan/story-fncynjr2-1227216945097
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Yes and no, it raises some of the issues, glosses over others.

The Elephant in the room, that needs to be addressed, is that our recent history of large defence procurement projects is woeful. And it gets worse when we build locally.

The Collins class subs were an unmitigated disaster. The ANZAC frigates are not much better, being in essence glorified patrol boats with barely any useful offensive capability. The Air Warfare Destroyers are a looming disaster, the F-35 is the biggest piece of kludge in history, the Wedgetail is a joke and the Seahawks even worse.

All have come with Australian based work, though the amount is often misstated. Even building a submarine like these, much of the money is actually spent in procuring systems from large defence contractors such as Raytheon, Thales, Lockheed Martin, There is a reason half the ads in Canberra airport are for companies nobody has heard of before outside defence procurement circles. The work here is limited to systems integration and some hull construction.

Often building even limited capability into Australian companies for one off projects costs almost as much again as the work performed by the companies. There is for example a massive sludge fund called NACC-ISP put in place to help Australian companies demonstrate the capacity to build even simple components for the F-35, and the cost of NACC-ISP will probably exceed the value of component orders by Australian manufacturers.

The other trouble being, based on previous experience, we suck so very hard at systems integration, specification and project management, to the extent that what we build has zero operational capability, if it wasn't already rendered pointless by the specification process.

So, defence work given the capability of our industrial base now is often a poor and inefficient way of buying jobs, with the cost of delivering expensive paperweights.

I am absolutely the first person to say our manufacturing base needs significant assistance, just this is a s**t awful way of doing it for little lasting benefit.

As a last note, the order for 12 submarines means in practice we are going to have at most 4 on station at any one time, based on the rule of thirds. 4 subs are probably ok for some special forces work or ELINT, I don't know any credible plan that shows 4 subs dealing effectively with protecting SLOC's. They could only operate in that role in those numbers with significant air and surface support we simply don't have.

And we could barely keep more than one Collins class on station at a time due to manning. The navy couldn't keep the specialised crew required for an advanced submarine because they kept leaving for jobs that actually paid money. So how they are going to crew these I have no ******* idea.
 
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Reykjavik said:
Yes and no, it raises some of the issues, glosses over others.

The Elephant in the room, that needs to be addressed, is that our recent history of large defence procurement projects is woeful. And it gets worse when we build locally.

The Collins class subs were an unmitigated disaster. The ANZAC frigates are not much better, being in essence glorified patrol boats with barely any useful offensive capability. The Air Warfare Destroyers are a looming disaster, the F-35 is the biggest piece of kludge in history, the Wedgetail is a joke and the Seahawks even worse.

All have come with Australian based work, though the amount is often misstated. Even building a submarine like these, much of the money is actually spent in procuring systems from large defence contractors such as Raytheon, Thales, Lockheed Martin, There is a reason half the ads in Canberra airport are for companies nobody has heard of before outside defence procurement circles. The work here is limited to systems integration and some hull construction.

Often building even limited capability into Australian companies for one off projects costs almost as much again as the work performed by the companies. There is for example a massive sludge fund called NACC-ISP put in place to help Australian companies demonstrate the capacity to build even simple components for the F-35, and the cost of NACC-ISP will probably exceed the value of component orders by Australian manufacturers.

The other trouble being, based on previous experience, we suck so very hard at systems integration, specification and project management, to the extent that what we build has zero operational capability, if it wasn't already rendered pointless by the specification process.

So, defence work given the capability of our industrial base now is often a poor and inefficient way of buying jobs, with the cost of delivering expensive paperweights.

I am absolutely the first person to say our manufacturing base needs significant assistance, just this is a s**t awful way of doing it for little lasting benefit.

As a last note, the order for 12 submarines means in practice we are going to have at most 4 on station at any one time, based on the rule of thirds. 4 subs are probably ok for some special forces work or ELINT, I don't know any credible plan that shows 4 subs dealing effectively with protecting SLOC's. They could only operate in that role in those numbers with significant air and surface support we simply don't have.

And we could barely keep more than one Collins class on station at a time due to manning. The navy couldn't keep the specialised crew required for an advanced submarine because they kept leaving for jobs that actually paid money. So how they are going to crew these I have no ******* idea.
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Agree - I remember seeing the government a few years ago telling the public that they'd bought home the fleet for Christmas from Operations, ANZAC's IIRC when in actual fact they were tied up alongside due to crewing issues. This is also common with Patrol Boats where Navy/Contractor play smoke and mirrors having boats that look green on the board in Canberra sitting in Darwin Naval Base "On Standby" when in actual fact they couldn't crew them or they were broken....Helps the Navy and the contractor meet their KPI's of available Sea Days.

Haven't heard of NACC-ISP; however I tried for years in seeking assistance through another program called Priority Industry Capability (PIC) which listed remote weapon stations as critical due to limited in country support for which I was contract managing one such system and they were so caught up in their own red tape and processes/procedures it was just too difficult. They basically didn't know how to action the support needed.

DMO should be gutted IMO. There are some good project managers but then there are some shockers. Now days where project budget are required to where the overheads of the CoA project teams that usual out numbers the industry project team 10-1, there isn't much left over to deliver the actual technology.
 
Mods - I think this thread title should be changed to Australian Politics Stuffing Up Australia

Having trouble watching the news these days with so many ass clowns from each party.

Anyone here wish to start a BigFooty Party for the next election? If we can pull enough votes from the Collingwood supporter base we should piss it in.

First thing I'll do is increase the entrance to Richmond station after each Pies game - especially ANZAC Day
 
NT.Thunder said:
Mods - I think this thread title should be changed to Australian Politics Stuffing Up Australia

Having trouble watching the news these days with so many ass clowns from each party.

Anyone here wish to start a BigFooty Party for the next election? If we can pull enough votes from the Collingwood supporter base we should piss it in.

First thing I'll do is increase the entrance to Richmond station after each Pies game - especially ANZAC Day
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Shorten is not as bad as Rudd and Abbott
 
I'm blown away by your knowledge of all this NT.Thunder and Reykjavik

On radio this morning Barry Cassidy was saying that he thinks this talk of building the subs here is all lip service, when in fact deals have been done behind the scenes withChina, and Japan (to appease them over the China trade deal) and also to compensate them for the loss of the Eastern Tunnel here,

(I think I've paraphrased that fairly accurately)
 
Magpie Girl said:
I'm blown away by your knowledge of all this NT.Thunder and Reykjavik

On radio this morning Barry Cassidy was saying that he thinks this talk of building the subs here is all lip service, when in fact deals have been done behind the scenes withChina, and Japan (to appease them over the China trade deal) and also to compensate them for the loss of the Eastern Tunnel here,

(I think I've paraphrased that fairly accurately)
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Well - I wasted a lot of years in Defence Industry banging my head against a DMO wall. Spent a fair bit of that time within the Armidale Contract through ship building phase, commissioning and ISS. Fair to say when your family and your doctor says enough is enough with work, than it's time to move on. - frustrated as most. Reykjavik also sounds like he's been around similar circles.
 
NT.Thunder said:
Mods - I think this thread title should be changed to Australian Politics Stuffing Up Australia

Having trouble watching the news these days with so many ass clowns from each party.

Anyone here wish to start a BigFooty Party for the next election? If we can pull enough votes from the Collingwood supporter base we should piss it in.

First thing I'll do is increase the entrance to Richmond station after each Pies game - especially ANZAC Day
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Can I be Minister for Sport or Foreign Affairs, don't mind either?
 
Glad the title was changed because this is a whack for both major parties.
I am getting sick of them saying leaving the debt for the next generation. How can they say this when they have all but sold the kitchen sick?
Gas, Electricity, Water, Banks, Medibank, Public transport, Qantas, manufacturing industries. In NSW they are now even selling off land (Government owned properties), which I then imagine they will lease back.
Then off course I won't even mention, our natural resources that allow foreign countries to come here and pillage our land. I am glad that one sector (Native Land) is getting a better return.
The Libs especially are pushing this hard claiming they are the better money managers, yep, selling Medibank was great - $6 B into the coffers, so any figure they put on current debt, add on that amount.
 
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