Where is Roman Reigns at?

Jun 23, 2008
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But again that's not really my point. My point is that this "softly, softly" approach would do more harm than good to Bryan, and honestly it's nothing more than an excuse not to push him to the main event. Because he's not injury-prone, and others have come back from a broken neck and excelled. It's nothing to do with his injury, and it's everything to do with the fact that the WWE doesn't want him to be the guy.

I disagree. I thought it would be obvious that there'd be some built-in trepidation at throwing a guy right into a main event schedule, and building the WM storyline and the company around him, coming right back from a broken neck. Hell, half the reason why (for example) someone like Dolph Ziggler has been "held back" over these past couple of years is that every time they seriously pushed him before that, he got injured. It's nobody's "fault", but they've already had the aftermath of one of the great storyline blow-offs and nine months of potential programming ruined and thrown out the window by Bryan's injury. Do they really want to have that happen again? And yes, with a neck injury, there's every chance he can have complications when coming back (and he did for a long time there). It's totally understandable IMO that they'd just want to see him get back and be healthy for a bit before throwing all that workload and pressure onto him again. It doesn't matter what other injuries he's had, or how "tough" he's perceived to be. A broken neck is as serious as it gets in sport and physical activity, and both Bryan himself and WWE have wider, longer-term considerations than immediate storylines and the wrestling business to think of.
 

Stripple

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Think of it this way...

Imagine you're not a wrestling fan. Not because you hate it, or "It's fake!!!", just because you've never really explored it. You're flicking channels, and you come across Raw or SmackDown. You see "guy in the street" Daniel Bryan cutting a promo in his smirking wink-wink "I can't believe I'm following this lame script, because we all know I'm cooler than mainstream wrestling, guys" tone. Are you hooked? Or do are you more drawn in by a living action figure in Roman Reigns, who looks believeable right off the bat to a non-fan, looking and sounding like an action film star? He looks like somebody, not the nerdy vegan I.T. guy at your work.



They might not actually have to officially "turn" him at all. If they want him to be the heel, and him doing what he's doing is earning the boos, why change things?
a) it would be pretty hard for a non wrestling fan to pick up on any wink wink tone, which to be honest I think you have just read into.
b) some of the most over guys have been the person you can identify with 'the nerdy i.t. guy at work', the 'blue collar worker' american dream, the guy who can't stand his boss and likes to drink beer. These people get over more so than some others due to the connection the fans get.

Yes Roman looks cooler and would grab a passer by, but it wouldn't take long for the coolness to wear off because the character he is playing is not him nor is it believable. None of that is his fault. He is still very young in terms of the business, and unfortunately is in an era where everything is much more tightly controlled so he can't grow into the role.
 
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a) it would be pretty hard for a non wrestling fan to pick up on any wink wink tone, which to be honest I think you have just read into.
b) some of the most over guys have been the person you can identify with 'the nerdy i.t. guy at work', the 'blue collar worker' american dream, the guy who can't stand his boss and likes to drink beer. These people get over more so than some others due to the connection the fans get.

Dusty and Stone Cold actually look like they could believably win or at least compete in a fight or a brawl, though. Their attitudes and characters were a bit more believeable, too. Bryan himself doesn't even seem like he believes what he's saying half the time, and his look and demeanour most likely invokes "do you even lift, bro?" with casuals.

Yes Roman looks cooler and would grab a passer by, but it wouldn't take long for the coolness to wear off because the character he is playing is not him nor is it believable. None of that is his fault. He is still very young in terms of the business, and unfortunately is in an era where everything is much more tightly controlled so he can't grow into the role.

Well if you've drawn a bigger house and bigger buyrates and interest in this WrestleMania card off the back of Reigns' "coolness", and get 3-6 months out of his run post-WrestleMania, I'd say that's job done for now. This doesn't have to mean him at the top of the card forever more, and it's not a "failure" by any means if he just has his term as the guy before moving back into that upper mid-card spot.
 
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The reaction was more about Reigns winning than Bryan not. It would have been good if they set up Bryan's WrestleMania storyline with his elimination though. If Bray, Ambrose, Ziggler or Rusev had won the reaction would not have been as bad.

Hell if Ziggler had eliminated Bryan and they had a proper feud toward Wrestlemania I would guess he could have still survived as a face with a handshake at the end of their mania match.

Imagine Rusev makes Cena pass out at Fastlane without tapping and you would have your irresistable force vs immovable object main event.
 

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Just to add to what I said above, as wrestling fans, we can have the tendency to be a bit insular, and only consider what we like as established viewers of the form. WWE (and any decent promotion) will always have an eye on attracting new fans and getting that mainstream crossover attention, because that's how the audience regenerates and grows over time. If you just cater to the fans you already have, many of whom will watch regardless, even if they "hate" what's going on, you're never really going to grow or evolve over time. It's not always as simple as "live crowd likes this guy, just keep pushing him up the card". Sometimes you've got to try and take a punt on something else, or put a rocket under a particular type, even if it's not the live crowd's absolute favourite choice, to keep mixing things up.
Think this is a fair point. However, by going so hard with Reigns in complete disregard for what I would guess would be the majority of the hardcore fan base, they have garnered the mainstream crossover in the worst possible way. The twitter trend, the cancellations, the fact that this was such a big story in many mainstream publications only hurts what they are trying to achieve with a guy like Reigns.

I still maintain, Reigns is not the issue. The booking before and during the Rumble caused so many issues which have lead to the intense examination of Reigns.
 
Dusty and Stone Cold actually look like they could believably win or at least compete in a fight or a brawl, though. Their attitudes and characters were a bit more believeable, too. Bryan himself doesn't even seem like he believes what he's saying half the time, and his look and demeanour most likely invokes "do you even lift, bro?" with casuals.

Well in a Fight Between Brock and Bryan. Looks like Brock would Destroy Bryan
 
Well in a Fight Between Brock and Bryan. Looks like Brock would Destroy Bryan
To be fair, in a fight between Brock and anyone, looks like Brock would destroy anyone.
 

Stripple

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To be fair, in a fight between Brock and anyone, looks like Brock would destroy anyone.
And this is the thing, there are many way to be out "wrestled". Distraction, dirty tactics, out smarting, out lasting - they all come into play. It's not just how much do you weigh? Oh... your the winner then.

How many people did Shawn Michael beat, or Jericho that were bigger and stronger looking?
 
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Think of it this way...

Imagine you're not a wrestling fan. Not because you hate it, or "It's fake!!!", just because you've never really explored it. You're flicking channels, and you come across Raw or SmackDown. You see "guy in the street" Daniel Bryan cutting a promo in his smirking wink-wink "I can't believe I'm following this lame script, because we all know I'm cooler than mainstream wrestling, guys" tone. Are you hooked? Or do are you more drawn in by a living action figure in Roman Reigns, who looks believeable right off the bat to a non-fan, looking and sounding like an action film star? He looks like somebody, not the nerdy vegan I.T. guy at your work.

They should be worrying about consolidating their existing fans and prevent the bleeding away from the WWE rather than trying to market to casual fans who may be channel surfing and have never even cared about it before.
 
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And this is the thing, there are many way to be out "wrestled". Distraction, dirty tactics, out smarting, out lasting - they all come into play. It's not just how much do you weigh? Oh... your the winner then.

How many people did Shawn Michael beat, or Jericho that were bigger and stronger looking?

Yeah, but even then, Michaels and Jericho had like 3-4 inches in height and 30-40lbs on Bryan. They weren't 5'8", 180lbs. They were also pretty good looking guys in their prime, and had a bit more flash and pizzazz about their presentation and attitude in general. They looked like and came across like rock stars. Bryan basically looks like your typical wrestling nerd, like he should be sitting in the crowd rather than being in the ring.

They should be worrying about consolidating their existing fans and prevent the bleeding away from the WWE rather than trying to market to casual fans who may be channel surfing and have never even cared about it before.

I think the "bleeding away", both this past week and in general, is far overstated. I guarantee the majority who "cancelled" their Network subscriptions after the Rumble were still watching and following what happened next during this week.
 
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Yeah, but even then, Michaels and Jericho had like 3 inches in height and 30-40lbs on Bryan. They weren't 5'8", 180lbs. They were also pretty good looking guys in their prime, and had a bit more flash and pizzazz about their presentation and attitude in general. They looked like and came across like rock stars. Bryan basically looks like your typical wrestling nerd, like he should be sitting in the crowd rather than being in the ring.



I think the "bleeding away", both this past week and in general, is far overstated. I guarantee the majority who "cancelled" their Network subscriptions after the Rumble were still watching and following what happened next during this week.

I'm talking about people they've been losing steadily over the last decade or so.
 
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Just to reel things in for a moment.... How is 'that guy is too small to believe he could win a fight' even a valid factor in an argument about a sport everyone knows is 'fake'.

I mean there's dudes in bunny suits, a powerlifter & an 80 woman parenting a giant hand, divas 'wrestling' & a leprechaun living under the ring secretly running the whole show that anyone flicking onto the channel by chance has to get past before even considering if they are really punching each other for crying out loud.

C'mon guys pls.
 

nobbyiscool

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Stupid "in a real fight" arguments make me lol.

If you're watching a match thinking about what would happen in a real fight, then both the writers and the wrestlers have failed to suspend your disbelief.

It's also worth noting that in a real fighting fed, Bryan is still the champ, and Lesnar is the interim champion.
 
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Yeah exactly ratings have been the same for a decade and nothing like they were in the decade before that.

Ratings don't mean nearly as much if they're not going head-to-head with any other wrestling shows, either. WWE programming is still genuinely garners some of the highest ratings on US cable TV.

WWE is still immensely profitable, and the company as a whole probably has a more certain and stable future right now than ever. I'm not talking creatively, just from a business perspective.

Just to reel things in for a moment.... How is 'that guy is too small to believe he could win a fight' even a valid factor in an argument about a sport everyone knows is 'fake'.

Because to make things effective, they have to be somewhat believeable. To the casual fan who's not familiar with the product, or not concerned with "workrate" and technical skill, Bryan looks like a tiny dweeb.

It's also worth noting that in a real fighting fed, Bryan is still the champ, and Lesnar is the interim champion.

And in a real fight fed, they'd never go near each other, because they'd be in totally different weight classes.
 
I don't think people realise that it's not that we (and when I say we I mean those that didn't want to see Reigns win the Rumble) just wanted to see Bryan win, we just wanted to see somebody that wasn't Reigns win, within reason so not Fandango.

And it's not like Bryan is injury-prone either, so I highly doubt that would be a problem. The fact is that they're just incensed on pushing Reigns no matter what. And Bryan wouldn't pull out of the Rumble. If the doctors didn't tell him to stop wrestling, he would have wrestled with a broken neck. He's wrestled injured before and will again.
You're rustling my jimmies, brah.
 

nobbyiscool

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I don't think people realise that it's not that we (and when I say we I mean those that didn't want to see Reigns win the Rumble) just wanted to see Bryan win, we just wanted to see somebody that wasn't Reigns win, within reason so not Fandango.

And it's not like Bryan is injury-prone either, so I highly doubt that would be a problem. The fact is that they're just incensed on pushing Reigns no matter what. And Bryan wouldn't pull out of the Rumble. If the doctors didn't tell him to stop wrestling, he would have wrestled with a broken neck. He's wrestled injured before and will again.

I don't think it was personal against Reigns - he merely represented Batista 2.0 ie. the WWE brass ignoring what their fans want and telling them what they wanted.

But I think that's kind of what you're saying as well?

And where did this notion that he had a "broken neck" come from? He didn't - he had a nerve problem that only required minimally invasive surgery.

I can't speak for WWE and why they refuse to push Bryan, but it's not because his neck injury is symbolic of being injury prone. That neck injury is actually something that normal people can get at the gym following a prolonged period of poor technique; you could even get it at work if you have a desk job and don't have your workspace set up problem.
 

Stripple

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Yeah, but even then, Michaels and Jericho had like 3-4 inches in height and 30-40lbs on Bryan. They weren't 5'8", 180lbs. They were also pretty good looking guys in their prime, and had a bit more flash and pizzazz about their presentation and attitude in general. They looked like and came across like rock stars. Bryan basically looks like your typical wrestling nerd, like he should be sitting in the crowd rather than being in the ring.



I think the "bleeding away", both this past week and in general, is far overstated. I guarantee the majority who "cancelled" their Network subscriptions after the Rumble were still watching and following what happened next during this week.
Whilst I agree with your summation of of HBK and Y2J that's not the point. Size isn't the determining factor. Anyone can win in this world of professional wrestling. Otherwise Mick Foley would never have been champ he is not built stronger than anyone he ever bet, he's not quicker, he just took the punishment and outlasted. No reason Bryan can't do the same. Once again please don't get hung up on the specifics this is more about the limits of believability in pro wrestling - anything is possible if done right.

As I said though to me it was never Bryan over reigns. Don't get me wrong I would have preferred Bryan over Reigns. But would have been content with any kind of believability in the storytelling. Any kind of consistency in the storytelling. Any kind of momentum for the over baby faces or heels.

If I was a casual fan watching RR I would have went ok so it's lesnar vs reigns. What are Wyatt, Ambrose, ziggler, Bryan, hell even Rollins doing next.

Why bring Bryan back if he is just going to be eliminated without fan fare or a future direction. Just bring him back after RR. But it was all just to give people hope that the outcome wasn't a forgone conclusions, and if that's the case then why eliminate him so early and remove that hope?


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nobbyiscool

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And in a real fight fed, they'd never go near each other, because they'd be in totally different weight classes.

As I said, if you're considering a "real fight", then everyone involved in WWE has failed. If you're more worried about a "real fight", you should go watch UFC.

Personally, I never saw Brock Lesnar give anyone an F5 in UFC.

I've never seen anyone lie on the ground and wait for his opponent to climb a turnbuckle and jump on him in a real fight.

I've never seen anyone climb a ladder in a fight.

I've never seen anyone stop and cut their own forehead open in a fight.

Again, I lol at the "real fight" argument because it's stupid, and it's completely moot.
 
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As I said, if you're considering a "real fight", then everyone involved in WWE has failed. If you're more worried about a "real fight", you should go watch UFC.

Personally, I never saw Brock Lesnar give anyone an F5 in UFC.

I've never seen anyone lie on the ground and wait for his opponent to climb a turnbuckle and jump on him in a real fight.

I've never seen anyone climb a ladder in a fight.

I've never seen anyone stop and cut their own forehead open in a fight.

Again, I lol at the "real fight" argument because it's stupid, and it's completely moot.

I've never at any stage said it has to look like a real fight, just saying that a casual or new fan who isn't familiar with wrestling would most likely have trouble finding someone like Daniel Bryan believeable and credible on first assessment, based on his look and demeanour. Obviously as longer-term wrestling fans, we understand how things work a bit better, and know that you can manipulate things to look any way you like, but we're not the only people watching and being catered to.
 
You're rustling my jimmies, brah.
You just took the bait straight up didn't you? :D

I don't think it was personal against Reigns - he merely represented Batista 2.0 ie. the WWE brass ignoring what their fans want and telling them what they wanted.

But I think that's kind of what you're saying as well?

And where did this notion that he had a "broken neck" come from? He didn't - he had a nerve problem that only required minimally invasive surgery.

I can't speak for WWE and why they refuse to push Bryan, but it's not because his neck injury is symbolic of being injury prone. That neck injury is actually something that normal people can get at the gym following a prolonged period of poor technique; you could even get it at work if you have a desk job and don't have your workspace set up problem.
Oh I'm not saying it was personal against Reigns, Reigns was like you said a symbol of the WWE just doing what they wanted and not caring about anything else.

As for the broken neck, I hadn't heard too much about it apart from "neck injury" and since Damon said broken neck I ran with it. And even still if it was a broken neck they're not going to have him wrestle a casket match, or against a wrestler who's signature move is a chokeslam, despite how safe Kane is.
 

Bomberboyokay

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As I said, if you're considering a "real fight", then everyone involved in WWE has failed. If you're more worried about a "real fight", you should go watch UFC.

Personally, I never saw Brock Lesnar give anyone an F5 in UFC.

I've never seen anyone lie on the ground and wait for his opponent to climb a turnbuckle and jump on him in a real fight.

I've never seen anyone climb a ladder in a fight.

I've never seen anyone stop and cut their own forehead open in a fight.

Again, I lol at the "real fight" argument because it's stupid, and it's completely moot.
The weekly backstage segments with everyone standing in a line facing the camera don't do much for realism either.
 
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