Opinion Beams deal reviewed - incoming players (bumped, see post #672)

[jjsmitty8]

No one saying the Descion being made. We are just going what the little we seen and the Potential what could happen

yeah, but why speculate that far ahead and put unnecessary pressure on a kid (or kids) who have played less than 10 games? It's like Melbourne supporters and Jesse Hogan, I'd hate to be that kid atm. Imagine how much flack he's going to cop if he doesn't kick 100 goals in his first two years (an over-exaggertion I know, but that's the sort of pressure they're putting on him.)

 

[TradeDraft]

yeah, but why speculate that far ahead and put unnecessary pressure on a kid (or kids) who have played less than 10 games? It's like Melbourne supporters and Jesse Hogan, I'd hate to be that kid atm. Imagine how much flack he's going to cop if he doesn't kick 100 goals in his first two years (an over-exaggertion I know, but that's the sort of pressure they're putting on him.)

The people at the Club would not come on Social Media or these Forums. So how could that Effect Them?

Majority of Fans do this all the time

 

[DrDavoren]

I think when we had Beams at the Pies we had him as a top 10 midfielder, will be interesting to see where we rate him at the end of this year as a Lion.

I think he is top 20 midfielder but top 5-10 is a big call.

There is a lot of merit to some posts here, I agree with those who are glad we got Greenwood and also think he is what we need to balance the core midfield group.

It's great to think DeGoey is going to learn the poise and silk from Pendles and get his hard edge from being around Greenwood, although he looks pretty hard at it already!

And I like a lot of the things Crisp brought to the table good attack at the ball and man very quick and looking the goods too.

So far really happy with the trade.

 

[jjsmitty8]

The people at the Club would not come on Social Media or these Forums. So how could that Effect Them?

Majority of Fans do this all the time

You're 100% sure of that TD? All the players and staff in the AFL, and you think not one of them gets on social media or forums and reads stuff?

Considering a lot of players have Facebook accounts, I'd say they do see things about them.

 

[TradeDraft]

You're 100% sure of that TD? All the players and staff in the AFL, and you think not one of them gets on social media or forums and reads stuff?

Considering a lot of players have Facebook accounts, I'd say they do see things about them.

Well the Facebook Accounts are normally Private and people who message them.

Non-Footy Staff might come on here and read but I highly doubt the Coaches and Players read on here

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

yeah, but why speculate that far ahead and put unnecessary pressure on a kid (or kids) who have played less than 10 games? It's like Melbourne supporters and Jesse Hogan, I'd hate to be that kid atm. Imagine how much flack he's going to cop if he doesn't kick 100 goals in his first two years (an over-exaggertion I know, but that's the sort of pressure they're putting on him.)

Boo hoo.

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

Well the Facebook Accounts are normally Private and people who message them.

Non-Footy Staff might come on here and read but I highly doubt the Coaches and Players read on here

Buckley used to have an account on Nick's. I'm sure there would be a few AFL players on here, but most likely they'd be defunct accounts from current players who joined before they were drafted. It'd be a waste of time for a current player to post on here or read comments. Who hasn't googled their real name before? It'd be like that if they ever did.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

If any of our players are than thin skinned that they cant handle criticism or praise from anonymous people on a website then they probably wont make the grade anyway.

 

[DrDavoren]

Whilst I agree with most of what has been said, I think making this comparison is a bit premature.

Sure De Goey is an animal and looks like he could be anything. Crisp showed positive signs too. Greenwood eventually found touch and like mentioned previously I think he'll compliment our midfield nicely.

But Dayne Beams has got more runs on the board than these 3 combined. He's genuine A-grade talent, and the deal will be judge differently by everyone depending on whether you rate quality over quantity or vice verser.

I do whole heartedly agree with the point in the OP about the fact that we were able to muster a 3 for 1 deal helped us get some players that can bolster other areas rather than just trading a mid for a mid and being done with it.

Personally, I don't think we can say we've won the deal, but we've done well from the deal.

I think runs on the board are great but Beams was notorious for going missing in big matches, didn't see him dominate any finals, he seemed to do best when we were down as a team, he played many games with 2-4 goals like the Geelong game.

This is why I think we will do alright, Greenwood was good in finals last year and if JDG and Crisp can become regular 22 by years end we are well on the way to achieving at worst a breakeven from the trade.

Can't wait to see how Beams plays against us in a few weeks...

Any luck DeGoey or Crisp will wrap him up in a few hard tackles.

 

[Apex36]

The people at the Club would not come on Social Media or these Forums. So how could that Effect Them?

Majority of Fans do this all the time

Pretty sure lukem would regard himself as a person from the club

 

[DNine]

Whilst I agree with most of what has been said, I think making this comparison is a bit premature.

Sure De Goey is an animal and looks like he could be anything. Crisp showed positive signs too. Greenwood eventually found touch and like mentioned previously I think he'll compliment our midfield nicely.

But Dayne Beams has got more runs on the board than these 3 combined. He's genuine A-grade talent, and the deal will be judge differently by everyone depending on whether you rate quality over quantity or vice verser.

I do whole heartedly agree with the point in the OP about the fact that we were able to muster a 3 for 1 deal helped us get some players that can bolster other areas rather than just trading a mid for a mid and being done with it.

Personally, I don't think we can say we've won the deal, but we've done well from the deal.

But why is Beams A Grader and Greenwood is not classed as one? Beams averages 27 disposals, Greenwood 25 with exactly the same amount of kicks, with Beams getting 2 more handballs a game. Beams is 68% effective, Greenwood is 66% effective. Beams is an outsider that runs one way, Greenwood is an insider that runs both. Beams 100 tackles, Greenwood 97. Beams third best and fairest in a side that finished 11th, Greenwood third best and fairest that finished 6th. Also, Greenwood started the season being used a fair bit as a sub. Once he proved himself, he got better and better as the season went.

I see it a lot closer than others do. Beams was second midfielder at Collingwood, with Pendlebury the first, and third was Ball or Sidebottom. At Brisbane, he will be competing for a midfield spot against Rockliff, Rich, Aish, Redden, Hanley, Mayes, Adcock and Taylor. He will be in the midfield less than what he was for us, which will reduce his disposal a fair bit. Greenwood on the other hand, is coming from a side that was deep with midfielders Dal Santo, S.Gibson, Harvey and Cunnington all had more disposals and midfield time than Greenwood, and Atley, Bastinac, Ziebel, Wells and Swallow all had some midfield time share.

At Collingwood, we had players trying to find themselves in the midfield. Elliott, Thomas, Dwyer, Blair, Young and Lumumba all had some time in there, but hardly quality midfielders capable of getting the ball instead of Beams.

By the end of the year, we may well be saying that Greenwood for Beams would of been fair. If Greenwood relishes more midfield time, and Beams plays out of his natural position, on flanks or out on the wings, then the disposal trend will turn. De Goey and Crisp will be very handy extras in a trade that could well become one sided.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

plus less chance of off field dramas distractions rumours and innuendo

 

[jjsmitty8]

Wow, I didn't realise what I actually said re: Beams would attract this much, if any negative attention lol. I'll just start by saying that it's not that I don't rate De Goey, or I don't rate Crisp or I don't rate Greenwood. Greenwood had a breakthrough season in 2014, absolutely no doubting that. I just as much as anyone hopes he can carry on being that sort of player and compliment our midfield and lead from the front. In the eyes of some, maybe he is A-Grade, I personally think being an A-Grader comes with consistency, but others will disagree and so be it.

De Goey, yep, great. Stoked that he was able to get off on the right foot. I was all aboard the Laverde train when it came to draft time, but De Goey has started to grow on me. Love his attack on the ball and the ball carrier.

Crisp, I don't really know how I feel about him yet. I can't judge a guy who I've seen very minimal of.

All I was saying is that you guys can speculate all you like on who won the deal, I just think it's too early, that's it.

EDIT: But just remember, when Beams played for Collingwood, he was this hard working, goal kicking midfielder who had all this currency and had us in a frenzy constructing trades in our head involving guys like Dangerfield and Hanley, but now he's the opposition and apparently he's a downhill skier who doesn't work hard both ways and he carries too much baggage off field. I'm just saying we can't have it both ways.

 

[Bard]

EDIT: But just remember, when Beams played for Collingwood, he was this hard working, goal kicking midfielder who had all this currency and had us in a frenzy constructing trades in our head involving guys like Dangerfield and Hanley, but now he's the opposition and apparently he's a downhill skier who doesn't work hard both ways and he carries too much baggage off field. I'm just saying we can't have it both ways.

Yeah seriously the backflips some people are doing is hilarious. They have to be taking the piss surely.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

EDIT: But just remember, when Beams played for Collingwood, he was this hard working, goal kicking midfielder who had all this currency and had us in a frenzy constructing trades in our head involving guys like Dangerfield and Hanley, but now he's the opposition and apparently he's a downhill skier who doesn't work hard both ways and he carries too much baggage off field. I'm just saying we can't have it both ways.

Agree with this piece. I wont be bagging Beams out. Not for his on field stuff, anyway. Greenwood along with Adams and potentially De Goey and Freeman do add a lot of inside mid strength for the future that the club has been missing though, with Ball carrying the bulk of responsibilities in recent seasons. I'm expecting us to be better in the stoppages this year, making life easier for the likes of Cloke.

 

[Apex36]

But why is Beams A Grader and Greenwood is not classed as one? Beams averages 27 disposals, Greenwood 25 with exactly the same amount of kicks, with Beams getting 2 more handballs a game. Beams is 68% effective, Greenwood is 66% effective. Beams is an outsider that runs one way, Greenwood is an insider that runs both. Beams 100 tackles, Greenwood 97. Beams third best and fairest in a side that finished 11th, Greenwood third best and fairest that finished 6th. Also, Greenwood started the season being used a fair bit as a sub. Once he proved himself, he got better and better as the season went.

I see it a lot closer than others do. Beams was second midfielder at Collingwood, with Pendlebury the first, and third was Ball or Sidebottom. At Brisbane, he will be competing for a midfield spot against Rockliff, Rich, Aish, Redden, Hanley, Mayes, Adcock and Taylor. He will be in the midfield less than what he was for us, which will reduce his disposal a fair bit. Greenwood on the other hand, is coming from a side that was deep with midfielders Dal Santo, S.Gibson, Harvey and Cunnington all had more disposals and midfield time than Greenwood, and Atley, Bastinac, Ziebel, Wells and Swallow all had some midfield time share.

At Collingwood, we had players trying to find themselves in the midfield. Elliott, Thomas, Dwyer, Blair, Young and Lumumba all had some time in there, but hardly quality midfielders capable of getting the ball instead of Beams.

By the end of the year, we may well be saying that Greenwood for Beams would of been fair. If Greenwood relishes more midfield time, and Beams plays out of his natural position, on flanks or out on the wings, then the disposal trend will turn. De Goey and Crisp will be very handy extras in a trade that could well become one sided.

First point of difference is consistency. Beams has been performing to an extremely high standard since 2012. Greenwood has one good season under his belt.
Secondly, Beams is an inside/outside player, not just outside (honestly not sure what gives you the idea he is), whereas Greenwood is a more pure inside type. Beams averages just over 4 clearances per game to just under 3 for Levi.
Lastly, Beams averages just over a goal per game, making him a true goal kicking mid. Levi averages 0.3 per game.

This is not taking anything away from Greenwood. I think he's a very good player and if Thursday's game is any indication I think he will thrive at the pies, but he still has some work to do to be classed in that same elite bracket as Beams.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

First point of difference is consistency. Beams has been performing to an extremely high standard since 2012. Greenwood has one good season under his belt..

Thats if you dont count 2013 of course.

 

[Apex36]

Thats if you dont count 2013 of course.

Even if you count the 8 games from 2013, his numbers are still very similar. He still pulled in 28.5 disposals per game, got a whopping 6.75 clearances per game, and kicked 6 goals from his 8 outings.

Being out of the game for that extended period (whatever the reason) did not make him any less of a player. In fact, it's a testament to his talent that he was able to come back in and play to such a high standard from word go.

Edit: I am however, interested to see how he'll fare at Brisbane. They have a talented midfield, but at the same time, Beams will certainly command more attention than he did whilst at the Pies. He may have quality around him, but he certainly won't have players of the same quality as Pendles and Swan to take the oppositions attention away from him.

 

[ace andy]

Agree with this piece. I wont be bagging Beams out. Not for his on field stuff, anyway. Greenwood along with Adams and potentially De Goey and Freeman do add a lot of inside mid strength for the future that the club has been missing though, with Ball carrying the bulk of responsibilities in recent seasons. I'm expecting us to be better in the stoppages this year, making life easier for the likes of Cloke.

Freeman is not an inside mid.

 

[DNine]

Wow, I didn't realise what I actually said re: Beams would attract this much, if any negative attention lol. I'll just start by saying that it's not that I don't rate De Goey, or I don't rate Crisp or I don't rate Greenwood. Greenwood had a breakthrough season in 2014, absolutely no doubting that. I just as much as anyone hopes he can carry on being that sort of player and compliment our midfield and lead from the front. In the eyes of some, maybe he is A-Grade, I personally think being an A-Grader comes with consistency, but others will disagree and so be it.

De Goey, yep, great. Stoked that he was able to get off on the right foot. I was all aboard the Laverde train when it came to draft time, but De Goey has started to grow on me. Love his attack on the ball and the ball carrier.

Crisp, I don't really know how I feel about him yet. I can't judge a guy who I've seen very minimal of.

All I was saying is that you guys can speculate all you like on who won the deal, I just think it's too early, that's it.

EDIT: But just remember, when Beams played for Collingwood, he was this hard working, goal kicking midfielder who had all this currency and had us in a frenzy constructing trades in our head involving guys like Dangerfield and Hanley, but now he's the opposition and apparently he's a downhill skier who doesn't work hard both ways and he carries too much baggage off field. I'm just saying we can't have it both ways.

I seen negative comments here and there about him when he was at the Pies. Some of our negative supporters find the negative in anything. Just don't see why he is classified A Grade, and Greenwood isn't. Sure Greenwood only has had one breakout season, but Beams the year before last, was as good as a write off. Beams gets 25 touches tonight, and despite not being in any highlights apart from two he was best on ground apparently. He grabbed it in defence toward the end and just like he does A LOT, he just chucked it on his boot without looking, and almost cost the Lions the game. Yet they continue to rave about him. Too many times, he relies on luck. Not often would the worth of three players who are all very good possibility's of making our 22, be worth more than one player.

I have great trust in Greenwood being almost as good as Beams this year, because of my reasons outlined in the last post.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Freeman is not an inside mid.

I dont pretend to be an expert on these matters but his bio says he has a lot of inside attributes.

http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2013-11-21/welcome-to-collingwood-nathan-freeman

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Even if you count the 8 games from 2013, his numbers are still very similar..

8 games is still 8 games. Its misleading to say hes been miles ahead of Greenwood over the past three seasons when he was missing in action for the large majority of one of them and was (slightly) behind him in another. What we can take as a given is that Beams had a blinder in 2012. We will really miss the Beams of 2012 if he gets back to that form.

 

[Apex36]

8 games is still 8 games. Its misleading to say hes been miles ahead of Greenwood over the past three seasons when he was missing in action for the large majority of one of them and was (slightly) behind him last year.

I don't think I ever said he was miles ahead of Greenwood, just that Beams had every right to be classed as A grade and Greenwood wasn't there yet.
Regarding his 8 games in 2013, it still puts him 1 and 1/3 seasons ahead of Levi in consistency. That's pretty significant.

 

[TradeDraft]

Buckley used to have an account on Nick's. I'm sure there would be a few AFL players on here, but most likely they'd be defunct accounts from current players who joined before they were drafted. It'd be a waste of time for a current player to post on here or read comments. Who hasn't googled their real name before? It'd be like that if they ever did.

I agree there be accounts from Kids who have been Drafted but don’t use it anymore as the Clubs would tell them not to go on Public Forums like BigFooty

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Fair enough, we are arguing about degrees really. I'd have Beams ahead in 2012, even in 2013 and slightly behind in 2014. I still believe De Goey and Greenwood will be more than adequate compensation for Beams and Crisp might be the cherry on top of the icing on the cake