Bill Shorten - how long?

[The Punter]

There's a paradox at the heart of the Australian Labor Party that is a fundamental impediment to them either governing themselves, resolving what they stand for, and providing good government.

Australia would be much better served by a slightly left of centre social democratic party without organizational ties to the trade union movement, which would enable them to select better candidates who were above suspicion, and enable them to develop better policy to assist re-starting the stalled reform process in this country, a country now which has a polity so scared of doing anything yesterday the government was forced to rule out a reform that it had never considered.

 

[Qsaint]

Correct punter even milliband did one great thing in the uk he removed the unions from controlling the votes at all levels of the uk Labour Party unfortunately here we are still stuck with 12 faceless men.

 

[Contra Mundum]

There's a paradox at the heart of the Australian Labor Party that is a fundamental impediment to them either governing themselves, resolving what they stand for, and providing good government.

Australia would be much better served by a slightly left of centre social democratic party without organizational ties to the trade union movement, which would enable them to select better candidates who were above suspicion, and enable them to develop better policy to assist re-starting the stalled reform process in this country, a country now which has a polity so scared of doing anything yesterday the government was forced to rule out a reform that it had never considered.

Its not so much candidates above suspicion but the best available candidates - the faction system which started out as an institutional response to ideological conflict within the Party has become a system of patronage. The gene pool of candidates is so narrow you get incompetent dribblers who are good at arse kissing and incapable of independent thinking . When someone like Dick Marles is regarded as a Wunderkinder - its time to shut the door.

Mind you the Libs are only pre-selecting from the political class as well. They have become what they despise and have therefore destroyed the best thing about themselves. No wonder our Country is ****ed.

Abbott himself had a real job for about five years - it leads to lack of conviction and love of what wins the media cycle and is an enemy to good policy development. If all you have done is been in Young Labor/Liberals, been in an electoral office, become a political adviser you cannot subject policy to the real life sniff test and that goes for both sides.

I would much rather listen to Ricky Muir than Chris Pyne or Michael Danby

 

[The Punter]

If the people who got you your job in the ALP get pissed off at you, they take away your preselection because that power is institutionally entrenched. So that institutionally entrenched power hovers over you, and everything you do.

If the people who got you your job in the Liberal Party get pissed off at you, they can come for you, but it's a lot more difficult. One has more scope to be bold and brave, although that doesn't happen nearly enough.

It's funny though: rank and file Liberal members are always going on about how some MPs don't have "life experience", which is really code for making a buck by selling something. But these members of the political class seem to keep getting spots, particularly in safe seats. I can understand organisationally why the Senate attracts these types - statewide preselections lend themselves to elected delegates and head office anointings, but most candidates for lower house seats are preselected using the plebiscite option, which gives all local financial members a vote.

 

[Contra Mundum]

Correct punter even milliband did one great thing in the uk he removed the unions from controlling the votes at all levels of the uk Labour Party unfortunately here we are still stuck with 12 faceless men.

Can you name who does the pre-selecting in the Liberal Party - particularly in NSW?

 

[Contra Mundum]

If the people who got you your job in the ALP get pissed off at you, they take away your preselection because that power is institutionally entrenched. So that institutionally entrenched power hovers over you, and everything you do.

If the people who got you your job in the Liberal Party get pissed off at you, they can come for you, but it's a lot more difficult. One has more scope to be bold and brave, although that doesn't happen nearly enough.

It's funny though: rank and file Liberal members are always going on about how some MPs don't have "life experience", which is really code for making a buck by selling something. But these members of the political class seem to keep getting spots, particularly in safe seats. I can understand organisationally why the Senate attracts these types - statewide preselections lend themselves to elected delegates and head office anointings, but most candidates for lower house seats are preselected using the plebiscite option, which gives all local financial members a vote.

The stack is a cross party phenomenon Punter - the plebiscite option does not ensure quality - particularly where you have Optus Dei operatives or quasi fascist members of the blue rinse set as the only active members

 

[The Punter]

The stack is a cross party phenomenon Punter - the plebiscite option does not ensure quality - particularly where you have Optus Dei operatives or quasi fascist members of the blue rinse set as the only active members

Do Optus Dei pray in front of one of those church spires with the mobile phone tower stuck onto it?

No, the plebiscite option does not ensure quality. See Shaw, G.

 

[Contra Mundum]

Do Optus Dei pray in front of one of those church spires with the mobile phone tower stuck onto it?

No, the plebiscite option does not ensure quality. See Shaw, G.

The grip of religious nutters in the pre-selection of Libs in NSW is very disturbing. Occassionally you get a Christian nutbag that is not a bad politician like Mike Baird. On the other hand you get time serving incompetents like Kevin Andrews - how is he still in the Ministry?

 

[Qsaint]

Can you name who does the pre-selecting in the Liberal Party - particularly in NSW?

Catch up contra Abbott with support from Baird put a proposal to change all that at the end of last month. Members will vote all pre selections going forward locally Howard is being used to ram it through

We're you talking about Flint?

 

[Qsaint]

The grip of religious nutters in the pre-selection of Libs in NSW is very disturbing. Occassionally you get a Christian nutbag that is not a bad politician like Mike Baird. On the other hand you get time serving incompetents like Kevin Andrews - how is he still in the Ministry?

Hey Kevin likes bikes
Is not from nsw
And is another one of yours, actually there is probably more Catholics in the libs than the Alp arm, that's a first

 

[Contra Mundum]

Catch up contra Abbott with support from Baird put a proposal to change all that at the end of last month. Members will vote all pre selections going forward locally Howard is being used to ram it through

We're you talking about Flint?

I had no idea about that - at least it means that people not fit for government get pre-selected.

 

[Contra Mundum]

Hey Kevin likes bikes
Is not from nsw
And is another one of yours, actually there is probably more Catholics in the libs than the Alp arm, that's a first

Phil Lynch started the rot - as my dear departed Dad used to say "A Liberal Catholic is an oxymoron" . They tend to the judgemental Pell Pot variety rather than the Jesuit Pope Frank types

 

[The Punter]

Malcolm Turnbull and Joe Hockey are also Catholics. Certainly Turnbull doesn't fall into the rather offensively described first category.

 

[Gough]

Jaymes Diaz clearly received his preselection based on merit, Scott Morrison didn't even technically win his preselection, this is not an issue for one party only. It was Barry Cohen (I think) who said getting preselection was far more difficult than actually winning an election

 

[Taylor]

Would it be bad for a Australian democracy if all nominated candidates had to be 40+ and have worked or operated in a business for half of that time?

Groups not represented: Students, unemployed, stay at home parents, young people.

Pretty much as it is currently.

 

[Gough]

Correct punter even milliband did one great thing in the uk he removed the unions from controlling the votes at all levels of the uk Labour Party unfortunately here we are still stuck with 12 faceless men.

The Libs have those sort as well, they're just not faceless, they own newspapers, and run mining companies.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Lets say the swans gave Franklin's manager $200k in cash after negotiating a new deal between the two parties. You cant see why this would be construed as rather unseemly?

Once again, Medusala's confidence in his own intelligence has undone him. Manager's and agents do negotiate payments for themselves all the time as part of contract talks.

I guess it's obvious that the people pushing this realise it isn't that big a deal, due to the fact they have to stretch the narrative to involve corrupt Union officials. There is no suggestion of the corrupt largesse that correctly undid officials from the Health Services Union. The only suggestion is that the AWU has negotiated payments for union fees to come direct from the business, rather than direct from the workers. The important bit is whether it was a fair result. Cesar Melhem was told to stand down by his own AWU-linked peers.

The Libs have those sort as well, they're just not faceless, they own newspapers, and run mining companies.

I don't know why the Labor ones are called 'faceless' when everyone knows who they are and what their faces look like. If anything there are too many faces. Howes apparently had little to do with Rudd's removal, but I'll watch The Killing Season soon to confirm that.

 

[The Punter]

I ask the question: if payments were made for union fees, and this is all above board and nothing to be ashamed of, then why were the payments given non-descript titles? Why not just name what they are for?

Just asking for trouble if you ask me.

The Labor term "the faceless men" has historical significance, hence why it sticks.

 

[Qsaint]

Once again, Medusala's confidence in his own intelligence has undone him. Manager's and agents do negotiate payments for themselves all the time as part of contract talks.

I guess it's obvious that the people pushing this realise it isn't that big a deal, due to the fact they have to stretch the narrative to involve corrupt Union officials. There is no suggestion of the corrupt largesse that correctly undid officials from the Health Services Union. The only suggestion is that the AWU has negotiated payments for union fees to come direct from the business, rather than direct from the workers. The important bit is whether it was a fair result.

What I think you missed the point

An agent is contractually obliged to work in the best interest of their client. For there effort they get say 10% of all negotiated fees that thier client earns. They are expressly forbidden to take side payments and inducements

Ie franklin agent was paid 200k to get franklin to accept a lesser amount, the payment is unknown to franklin. This is unethical and breeches his contractural relationship with his client. In a regulated environment like the AFl he will be barred from representing anyone else, he would be sued by franklin and general be thought of as a crook.

But if he was a union hack this behaviour is somehow ok.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Ie franklin agent was paid 200k to get franklin to accept a lesser amount

This is where you're extrapolating. Frankling got a $10M contract, right? So at 10% his agent actually gets $1M (Meds messing up his maths again - who'd have thought?).

So you and Meds' imagined $200K fee would be completely realistic as a sign-on fee. This sort of thing happens all the time. It's only if the client is unhappy because the deal isn't fair that you have a problem. In this metaphor, that agent would have no clients in a very short amount of time.

 

[Qsaint]

This is where you're extrapolating. Frankling got a $10M contract, right? So at 10% his agent actually gets $1M (Meds messing up his maths again - who'd have thought?).

So you and Meds' imagined $200K fee would be completely realistic as a sign-on fee. This sort of thing happens all the time. It's only if the client is unhappy because the deal isn't fair that you have a problem. In this metaphor, that agent would have no clients in a very short amount of time.

My example is how Australia's worst Union deals allegedly

If you are talking about soccer yes there are club fees that get paid to the agent but they are visible, still think it's unethical but I never worked for Fifa.

The fees the awu got were under the table and unknown to those they represent having spent most of my working life as an agent of one sort or another this behaviour is abhorrent that the poor Union members can not rectify this behaviour is even worst

 

[Contra Mundum]

Malcolm Turnbull and Joe Hockey are also Catholics. Certainly Turnbull doesn't fall into the rather offensively described first category.

He is only Catholic because he wanted to marry a Hughes - I did say they "tend to be" - Alex Hawke for example, Connie Ferrante- Wells, and of course, everyone's favourite Clerico-Fascist Corrie Bernardi. The Libs don't have a monopoly on it either - the Labor members who are there due to the patronage of the SDA are not exactly social progressives either!

 

[Qsaint]

Alex is Hillsong nutter is he not? Turnbull I think married CoE he is one of those high church Oxford Newman converts

 

[skilts]

The stack is a cross party phenomenon Punter - the plebiscite option does not ensure quality - particularly where you have Optus Dei operatives or quasi fascist members of the blue rinse set as the only active members

Is this your god connection?

 

[Windhover]

There are three issues raised by the discussion in this thread.

First, whether there is anything wrong with an employer signing up all its employees to a particular union. It seems to me that Winslow et al are perfectly entitled to regard the AWU as a preferable bargaining agent to the CFMEU. It follows that in order to avoid having to deal with CFMEU those companies acted in their own self-interest to pay the AWU fees for its employees to become members and thus avoid the problems of negotiating with the CFMEU. I cannot for the life of me see how this is any problem for Shorten.

Secondly, sundry payments made by sundry employers for sundry reasons to the AWU. I do not know whether these payments were properly disclosed in the company books or in the books of the AWU. If not, then there is some cause for concern since there could certainly be the appearance of corrupt sweetheart deals being done to buy soft union treatment.

Before anyone recklessly jumped to any conclusion about any of the payments made it would be much better to wait until the full details surrounding each payment is fully known. These matters are not simple and no one should expect anyone to have precise recollection of events but there should be adequate documentation. Jumping to the conclusion that Shorten or the employers involved were engaged in corrupt practices is simply as headless and partisan as assuming all was sweet - when clearly it wasn't under Shorten's successor.

The TURC witchhunt (for that is what this $80M RC surely is) should be allowed to do its job and enable Shorten to answer proper questions rather than silly confected journalistic gotchas.

Thirdly, there is a suggestion that there is something improper about the AWU becoming bigger and more powerful and seeking to garner influence in the ALP. This is ridiculous. The AWU is, first and last, a political body. If I were a member of the Union I would be much happier having former Union leader's representing me in Parliament than former IPA apparatchiks, or just about anyone else.

Carry on.