Breakaway Random Discussion - Warnock, Jacobs, Daisy, Historical List Management

[Drexl 31]

Swann couldn't be bothered moving his hand from behind his back. I agree about the way we used to operate, just differ on levels of accountability. The 'board' is a very convenient non specific term for people to use when finger pointing. The 'board' is largely the same as it was, with a reduction in numbers, and yet the changes have been numerous in the last 12 months. The CEO and president drive the actions of a club, which is why we are now heading in the right direction since this changed.

The only way is up....right?

 

[Doro]

The only way is up....right?

Yep. Get the right people in place, a long term plan and a bit of energy- we might just get back where we want to be.

 

[Styxx]

Grrr... don't remind me!! - I'm still choking at the F#ckw1ttery of this decision.
Throw in Hampson & Warnock being retained over Sam Jacobs and you really have to wonder if someone was being paid to do a hatchet job from within...

Jacobs is pure hindsight. I don't even think Adelaide knew how good he was going to end up becoming.

Besides Hampson was traded for a pick that ended up helping us get Doc. He contributed positively in the end.

 

[BlueTongue]

Jacobs is pure hindsight. I don't even think Adelaide knew how good he was going to end up becoming.

Besides Hampson was traded for a pick that ended up helping us get Doc. He contributed positively in the end.

With respect, Sam Jacobs was always better than those two. The fact he has become as good as he is just salt in the wound. Go back and look at the threads from the game days he played for us and stats. Was always putting them down the throat of our mids. Was always a footballer, whilst a lot of wishful thinkers here were getting hot and steamy over Hampson's Athleticism, even years after he had proven nothing.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

With respect, Sam Jacobs was always better than those two. The fact he has become as good as he is just salt in the wound. Go back and look at the threads from the game days he played for us and stats. Was always putting them down the throat of our mids. Was always a footballer, whilst a lot of wishful thinkers here were getting hot and steamy over Hampson's Athleticism, even years after he had proven nothing.

This is conjecture. All 4 of our rucks had good games up to the end of that season. Jacobs only showed enough to get a touch and go 3rd rookie year and then he showed plenty. The threads at the time also had posters thinking Warnock was better around the ground than Jacobs.

Jacobs was the better tap ruckman of them all. Hampson was the one most likely to become a forward/ruck Tippett style so it wasn't a direct comparison with Jacobs and he come to the club at the same time as Jacobs. Quite simply, no ranking had been achieved and we lost the one who was out of contract and wanted to go home.

This was done to death in our breakaway discussion thread however. Some more analysis of our ruck dilemma in there.

 

[MC_Doggy_Frog18]

Oh god not this again.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Oh god not this again.

Thus the last line to divert the discussion back to there.

This was done to death in our breakaway discussion thread however. Some more analysis of our ruck dilemma in there.

 

[BlueTongue]

This is conjecture. All 4 of our rucks had good games up to the end of that season. Jacobs only showed enough to get a touch and go 3rd rookie year and then he showed plenty. The threads at the time also had posters thinking Warnock was better around the ground than Jacobs.

Jacobs was the better tap ruckman of them all. Hampson was the one most likely to become a forward/ruck Tippett style so it wasn't a direct comparison with Jacobs and he come to the club at the same time as Jacobs. Quite simply, no ranking had been achieved and we lost the one who was out of contract and wanted to go home.

This was done to death in our breakaway discussion thread however. Some more analysis of our ruck dilemma in there.

To clarify, he loved the Blues, and only wanted to go home because he was the bottom of the pecking order according to us, and wanted a chance for a lot more gametime.

Oh god not this again.

Sorry guys This one and Eddie Betts are real sore points for me. Can't get over the scars this club has left me with...

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

To clarify, he loved the Blues, and only wanted to go home because he was the bottom of the pecking order according to us, and wanted a chance for a lot more gametime.

What did the club say or do to suggest Jacobs was anything but in a contest for our senior ruck position?

Jacobs may have felt he was at the bottom of the pecking order. After all Kreuzer was a #1, Hampson #17, Warnock a big trade and he was a 3 year rookie just elevated to the senior list that year. However he played more games than everybody else, including a bottler of a final game. We didn't stand in his way when he asked to be traded because we had 4 ruckmen on our list.

Forum comments, statistical evidence shows that all 4 had performed well at times in limited amounts of games and there was no clear stand out selection. Jacobs better in the ruck, Hampson a better forward, Warnock 2nd best tap ruckman but incredibly up to that point quicker around the ground than Jacobs and Kreuzer the extra midfielder.

What transpired immediately afterwards (Jacobs and Warnock both had good years in 2011 incidentally) does not change what happened at the time. Some posters might have had their favourite but hanging the club based on the information available to them at the time and the fact that Jacobs made the call, not Carlton, is pointless.

It was simply bad luck for us.

 

[Blueballs38]

What did the club say or do to suggest Jacobs was anything but in a contest for our senior ruck position?

Jacobs may have felt he was at the bottom of the pecking order. After all Kreuzer was a #1, Hampson #17, Warnock a big trade and he was a 3 year rookie just elevated to the senior list that year. However he played more games than everybody else, including a bottler of a final game. We didn't stand in his way when he asked to be traded because we had 4 ruckmen on our list.

Forum comments, statistical evidence shows that all 4 had performed well at times in limited amounts of games and there was no clear stand out selection. Jacobs better in the ruck, Hampson a better forward, Warnock 2nd best tap ruckman but incredibly up to that point quicker around the ground than Jacobs and Kreuzer the extra midfielder.

What transpired immediately afterwards (Jacobs and Warnock both had good years in 2011 incidentally) does not change what happened at the time. Some posters might have had their favourite but hanging the club based on the information available to them at the time and the fact that Jacobs made the call, not Carlton, is pointless.

It was simply bad luck for us.

No disrespect ODN but what we did with our ruck division clearly mirrors how terrible we were during that period.

Warnock has always been hopeless around the ground, always. Good tap ruck man but you need more in modern footy.

Hampson was a project player that we kept too long thinking he could be the next Kouta

Krooze ... The right stuff .... just needs to stay on the park

Sauce .... The right stuff .... good young ruck man who showed he was way more versatile than both Hampson and Warnock.

We as a club just did not want to open our eyes at the time and now prefer to say ... Yeah with hindsight we all know better ... No! It was as obvious at the time. Those in charge of the club were just plainly moronic.

And the fat contract that Warnock is on proves it even more.

We as a club have made some massive howlers and Ai hope NOW we are on the right path .... Warnock to me was one of the biggest.

Cannot wait to see the back of him or at worst put on the rookie list on minimum wage where he belongs.

Never really hated a CFC player ... even have a soft spot for Daisy but I draw the line at Warnock .... he should be working at Birdseye sorting out the peas!

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

No disrespect ODN but what we did with our ruck division clearly mirrors how terrible we were during that period.

Warnock has always been hopeless around the ground, always. Good tap ruck man but you need more in modern footy.

Agreed he is shocking around the ground, however I have found posts from 2010 talking about Warnock being better around the ground. In 2015 that surprises me but I do trust my own memory that Sauce was a lumbering type back then.

Hampson was a project player that we kept too long thinking he could be the next Kouta

Irrelevant at the time. He was in his 4th year just like Jacobs. Never thought he could be the next Kouta, just an athletic ruck/forward.

Sauce .... The right stuff .... good young ruck man who showed he was way more versatile than both Hampson and Warnock.

Afterwards. Had not shown that versatility by the time he left.

We as a club just did not want to open our eyes at the time and now prefer to say ... Yeah with hindsight we all know better ... No! It was as obvious at the time. Those in charge of the club were just plainly moronic.

Disagree completely. Board observations on all players shifted constantly. Jacobs had 1 good year after showing little in his first couple. He was right in the mix but he was not a clear stand out. Those saying 'in hindsight' are correct.

And the fat contract that Warnock is on proves it even more.

Was on. Signed it after a very good season in 2011 when we were down to 3 ruckmen.

 

[Blueballs38]

Agreed he is shocking around the ground, however I have found posts from 2010 talking about Warnock being better around the ground. In 2015 that surprises me but I do trust my own memory that Sauce was a lumbering type back then.



Irrelevant at the time. He was in his 4th year just like Jacobs. Never thought he could be the next Kouta, just an athletic ruck/forward.



Afterwards. Had not shown that versatility by the time he left.



Disagree completely. Board observations on all players shifted constantly. Jacobs had 1 good year after showing little in his first couple. He was right in the mix but he was not a clear stand out. Those saying 'in hindsight' are correct.



Was on. Signed it after a very good season in 2011 when we were down to 3 ruckmen.

Well the past is the past and as all true Blue supporters lets just hope the club has finally learnt that there are no quick fixes.

I am prepared to give another five years of pain to this club as long as we just do it properly this time. No more saviours, no more quick fixes just start from rock bottom, build a solid foundation with the right people and go from there.

Get rid of the we are Carlton **** the rest attitude and just get into the modern age!

It kills me that we are becoming irrelevant!

We must stop the slide ..... luckily I believe, finally, we as an organisation have realised this.

I pray we have.

 

[LordLucifer]

I am prepared to give another five years of pain to this club as long as we just do it properly this time. No more saviours, no more quick fixes just start from rock bottom, build a solid foundation with the right people and go from there.

I think there are a lot of people with this mindset of which I'm one.

Definitely need to do it properly because clearly the Messiah method just hasn't worked and never will.

 

[Prem17]

No disrespect ODN but what we did with our ruck division clearly mirrors how terrible we were during that period.

Warnock has always been hopeless around the ground, always. Good tap ruck man but you need more in modern footy.

Hampson was a project player that we kept too long thinking he could be the next Kouta

Krooze ... The right stuff .... just needs to stay on the park

Sauce .... The right stuff .... good young ruck man who showed he was way more versatile than both Hampson and Warnock.

We as a club just did not want to open our eyes at the time and now prefer to say ... Yeah with hindsight we all know better ... No! It was as obvious at the time. Those in charge of the club were just plainly moronic.

And the fat contract that Warnock is on proves it even more.

We as a club have made some massive howlers and Ai hope NOW we are on the right path .... Warnock to me was one of the biggest.

Cannot wait to see the back of him or at worst put on the rookie list on minimum wage where he belongs.

Never really hated a CFC player ... even have a soft spot for Daisy but I draw the line at Warnock .... he should be working at Birdseye sorting out the peas!

Absa-freakin-lootely!!!!!
Warnock couldn't crack a game at Fremantle.
Why? Not because of Sandilands but because he was pathetic around the ground and up forward.
Fremantle dropped him to the WAFL and told him to become a) more potent up forward b) more damaging around the ground and c) to hold contested marks.
If not for him being a member of Fremantle's squad he would not of held his place in West Perth's league side because he was just as useless there.
Infact, I think he may have even been dropped to the West Perth reserves at one stage????
Then we threw the kitchen sink at him.
Jesus wept!
I hope we do land Phillips from GWS because it might finally see the end of Warnock.
Kruezer, Phillips, Wood? and Korcheck.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I'm a Warnock critic but I will support the club against hindsight calls.

2006 - 19 years old

West Perth

19 games. 9.42 disposals pg, 2.52 marks pg, 14.73 hitouts pg, 9 goals 6 behinds.

2007 - 20 years old

West Perth 7 games. 14.71 disp, 3.71 marks, 17.85 H.O, 3 goals

Fremantle 12 games. 9.75 disp, 3.25 marks, 10 H.O. 4 goals

2008 - 21 years old

West Perth 9 games. 14.66 disp, 3.11 marks, 18.44 H.O, 5 goals

Fremantle 9 games. 11.22 disp, 2.55 marks, 8.22 H.O

I think his progression looks fine and the Dockers rated him.

He just didn't go on with it as much as we expected.

 

[Doro]

I'm a Warnock critic but I will support the club against hindsight calls.

2006 - 19 years old

West Perth

19 games. 9.42 disposals pg, 2.52 marks pg, 14.73 hitouts pg, 9 goals 6 behinds.

2007 - 20 years old

West Perth 7 games. 14.71 disp, 3.71 marks, 17.85 H.O, 3 goals

Fremantle 12 games. 9.75 disp, 3.25 marks, 10 H.O. 4 goals

2008 - 21 years old

West Perth 9 games. 14.66 disp, 3.11 marks, 18.44 H.O, 5 goals

Fremantle 9 games. 11.22 disp, 2.55 marks, 8.22 H.O

I think his progression looks fine and the Dockers rated him.

He just didn't go on with it as much as we expected.

I remember being a little perplexed at the time. O'Keefe would have been a good fit, but Robbie was a bit of overkill considering the previous 2 drafts. The list management discussion again.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I remember being a little perplexed at the time. O'Keefe would have been a good fit, but Robbie was a bit of overkill considering the previous 2 drafts. The list management discussion again.

For sure it was overkill on ruckmen. No sure fire gun had shown themselves and they were all young so we got another ruckmen 1 year older and injured.

We did so many reactive things back then. I know why they did it and Warnock did have potential but it was still a shortsighted move.

 

[JustaBattler]

I'm a Warnock critic but I will support the club against hindsight calls.

2006 - 19 years old

West Perth

19 games. 9.42 disposals pg, 2.52 marks pg, 14.73 hitouts pg, 9 goals 6 behinds.

2007 - 20 years old

West Perth 7 games. 14.71 disp, 3.71 marks, 17.85 H.O, 3 goals

Fremantle 12 games. 9.75 disp, 3.25 marks, 10 H.O. 4 goals

2008 - 21 years old

West Perth 9 games. 14.66 disp, 3.11 marks, 18.44 H.O, 5 goals

Fremantle 9 games. 11.22 disp, 2.55 marks, 8.22 H.O

I think his progression looks fine and the Dockers rated him.

He just didn't go on with it as much as we expected.

Holdon there ODN - You defined Warnock as a" hindsight call "- some of us have been calling fr his exit since before we started posting on BF...and continued...
and have been categorically proven correct he was is and will ever be a witches ht lacking in intensity and unable to use his height. On the training paddock he moves much more athletically than in a game - he just isn't a footballer - where it matters.

No hindsight involved none. Warnock has regressed from the lofty heights of WAFL you quote - since the day he arrived at Carlton.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Holdon there ODN - You defined Warnock as a" hindsight call "- some of us have been calling fr his exit since before we started posting on BF...and continued...
and have been categorically proven correct he was is and will ever be a witches ht lacking in intensity and unable to use his height. On the training paddock he moves much more athletically than in a game - he just isn't a footballer - where it matters.

No hindsight involved none. Warnock has regressed from the lofty heights of WAFL you quote - since the day he arrived at Carlton.

Your BF Join date May 2012
Recruitment date October 2008
Jacobs leaving October 2010

I stand by this JaB.

I haven't been a fan of Warnock myself, as stated numerous times.

However this is in the context of the club stuffing up a) by trading for a dud, and b) choosing him ahead of a clearly superior Sam Jacobs.

This simply didn't happen.

He wasn't a dud when we recruited him, regardless of what followed. The club did not choose him ahead of anybody. Jacobs was not clearly superior to anybody at the time, it was a contest.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Yes, some posters rated Jacobs higher and were on his wagon in 2010. Some sung the praises of Warnock. Some were even pleased with Hampson. Regardless of the what those on the Jacobs wagon thought at the time, there was nothing in this contest statistically or visually. They all had attributes and deficiencies.

Anybody talking about how they have wanted Warnock out for the last few years is missing the point, because that is not the time period we are talking about.

 

[Sector 7G]

Don't remember to many people being critical of Robbie after the 2011 EF.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Just to clear up this notion that Warnock spudded it up as soon as Jacobs left and Jacobs was immediately a stand out, let's look at their 2011 stats, Jacobs' first year at Adelaide.

Games - Warnock 20, Jacobs 19
Hitouts - Warnock 29.55, Jacobs 32.15
Disposals - Warnock 11.45, Jacobs 12.57
Goals - Warnock 4, Jacobs 3
Tackles - Warnock 2.55, Jacobs 3
Clearances - Warnock 3.35, Jacobs 1.94
Marks - Warnock 2.1, Jacobs 4.36
Contested Marks Warnock 0.55, Jacobs 0.89
Contested Possessions - Warnock 7.5, Jacobs 5.52
Marks inside 50 - Warnock 0.5, Jacobs 0.26
Inside 50s - Warnock 1.8, Jacobs 1.73
Scoring - Warnock 4 goals 8, Jacobs 3 goals 8

Decent years for both. It was after that the great divide presented itself.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Don't remember to many people being critical of Robbie after the 2011 EF.

Exactly. He has been disappointing in most games since then but that wasn't the point of the discussion.

 

[HARKER]

I don't care for what happened in the past as much as I care for what will happen from here on in.

There are only a few constants through the periods in discussion and they aren't in recruiting.........nor coaching.........nor CEO's.......just one place.........and they're the guys that have let the club down, so it's time to pony up with the goods or allow someone else to do the job.

Jacobs vs Warnock.........pfffttt.......that's not the issue.

 

[goreds]

Just to clear up this notion that Warnock spudded it up as soon as Jacobs left and Jacobs was immediately a stand out, let's look at their 2011 stats, Jacobs' first year at Adelaide.

Games - Warnock 20, Jacobs 19
Hitouts - Warnock 29.55, Jacobs 32.15
Disposals - Warnock 11.45, Jacobs 12.57
Goals - Warnock 4, Jacobs 3
Tackles - Warnock 2.55, Jacobs 3
Clearances - Warnock 3.35, Jacobs 1.94
Marks - Warnock 2.1, Jacobs 4.36
Contested Marks Warnock 0.55, Jacobs 0.89
Contested Possessions - Warnock 7.5, Jacobs 5.52
Marks inside 50 - Warnock 0.5, Jacobs 0.26
Inside 50s - Warnock 1.8, Jacobs 1.73
Scoring - Warnock 4 goals 8, Jacobs 3 goals 8

Decent years for both. It was after that the great divide presented itself.

Sauce became a stand out because he went home, where he was always going to go...

He was recruited by Adelaide at the ripe time for a ruckman, add to that the 'I'm home' factor and there you go...!

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Sauce became a stand out because he went home, where he was always going to go...

He was recruited by Adelaide at the ripe time for a ruckman, add to that the 'I'm home' factor and there you go...!

None of our ruckmen were going to feel secure whilst we had 4 on the list staking a claim. We saw the same with Port Adelaide some years back. Less competition equals more security equals more time and opportunity equals more happiness.

Would Jacobs have left anyway if he stayed and we started to struggle after 2011? Certainly his job would be harder and there would have been more pressure. Development was crap as well. He may have stagnated.