Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

[Super Hans]

I'm Done

What a shame.

 

[hoianbulldog]

We were outcoached. How do you get +20 inside 50's but lose a match? The way that you kick it inside 50, the type of delivery. Which is an aspect of coaching.
How about something that is entirely tactical, and is measured by the coach Something like kick-ins and defending kick-ins? We're the worst in the league at both of those things to.
He might be a great developer but if he's not the worst tactical coach in the league, I don't know who is.

We've been the worst team at kick ins for 20 years.

 

[Toastman]

Whenever I read this thread I think of this scene:

It's like people think they are looking at a coach doing whatever it takes to win not a coach who is willing to take a hit in games to teach the players the right way to play.
I didn't get the joy from tonight that others obviously did so congratulations, I hope it is worth it.

 

[ManOfClay]

No mate I made my initial decision the man can't coach half way thru his first year but I've stated time and time again I'm happy for him to change that decision. I know it was an early call but that's my right isn't it?

It is your right, yes. But I'll have to disagree. It's another courtroom analogy but innocent until proven guilty should apply in a subjective matter like this.

Until then we should probably all stop baiting eachother just looking to score points. We're all pissed off tonight.

 

[fargy]

Whenever I read this thread I think of this scene:

It's like people think they are looking at a coach doing whatever it takes to win not a coach who is willing to take a hit in games to teach the players the right way to play.
I didn't get the joy from tonight that others obviously did so congratulations, I hope it is worth it.

No joy from the football for me, but absolutely love that scene! And movie!

 

[Mattdougie]

It is your right, yes. But I'll have to disagree. It's another courtroom analogy but innocent until proven guilty should apply in a subjective matter like this.

Until then we should probably all stop baiting eachother just looking to score points. We're all pissed off tonight.

I think he is pretty close to being proven guilty

 

[Mattdougie]

Whenever I read this thread I think of this scene:

It's like people think they are looking at a coach doing whatever it takes to win not a coach who is willing to take a hit in games to teach the players the right way to play.
I didn't get the joy from tonight that others obviously did so congratulations, I hope it is worth it.

Excuses

 

[1961grandfinal]

It's like people think they are looking at a coach doing whatever it takes to win not a coach who is willing to take a hit in games to teach the players the right way to play.
I didn't get the joy from tonight that others obviously did so congratulations, I hope it is worth it.

There is little joy in any doggies household tonight but it is delusional to think a senior coach after three years is willing to take a hit in games to teach players the right way to play. WT? That is what the VFL team is for, in the seniors it is the implementation of a winning plan at the highest level. The MC's performance this year is farcical from selection to game plans. All of these men are well paid, full time professionals who have let the members down, their lack of vision is mind boggling.

 

[lachy]

There is little joy in any doggies household tonight but it is delusional to think a senior coach after three years is willing to take a hit in games to teach players the right way to play. WT? That is what the VFL team is for, the seniors means that, it is the implementation of a winning plan at the highest level. The MC's performance this year is farcical from selection to game plans. All of these men are well paid, full time professionals who have let the members down, their lack of vision is mind boggling.

Great post, no more to say

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

Can we close this thread after losses like these so people can't spout their reactionary bullshit?

If you require a single loss to GWS to prop up your argument, it's a pretty ******* flimsy argument.

No more coming in here for one-upmanship and point scoring.

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

There is little joy in any doggies household tonight but it is delusional to think a senior coach after three years is willing to take a hit in games to teach players the right way to play. WT? That is what the VFL team is for, in the seniors it is the implementation of a winning plan at the highest level. The MC's performance this year is farcical from selection to game plans. All of these men are well paid, full time professionals who have let the members down, their lack of vision is mind boggling.

Great post, no more to say

Seconded.

 

[TedDougChris]

I have been meaning to write a detailed post in this thread for a while, but won't get to it for another few days I suspect - so I'll just put a specific thought bubble out there for discussion.

One thing I have been thinking of is that Macca has actually backed himself into a slight corner here with his tactics. While I don't necessarily disagree with the broader strategy, it does appear that we have sacrificed the short term wins with the longer term view of developing players. My question comes from, what if next year doesn't reap the rewards of this strategy ? If we've spent all this year and two offseasons (last and next) getting people ready for the AFL - and they are still not ready - will he come under pressure ? This year has all been about developing the systems in the VFL, if this doesn't bear fruit, where does that leave us ? At what point do people start asking - are we developing enough players, or only at the top end.

We've all been wondering about the Roberts/Talia/Austin/Roughead situation for example. If we were to let Austin go and next year Talia and Roberts don't come on as hoped - does that threaten the overall strategy ? Obviously this could have been tested (to a certain degree) this season, rather than playing Austin. Don't take this as Austin bashing, he's had good games and bad ones since his upgrade - I'm just using it as an example. This means that we keep Talia and Roberts on the list next year, potentially missing the chance to delist/trade - meaning our rebuild is slightly delayed by not assessing these guys at the top level. There were certainly opportunities this year to test this theory.

Now there is balance here, as players develop at different rates and sometimes you cannot assess players until they've got the body and skills ready to actually play at the top level - but there is a risk that our planned improvement stalls by believing that people will improve, when in reality they dont. If this occurs next year, do we have the patience to play the long term game again and wait, or do we panic. While the board may be believing in the improvement, it may be put to the test next year.

Personally I believe this year has not been a complete waste, frustrating as it may be. When people write the list of our top 5 players next year, it will read: Griff, Libba, Stringer, Bontempelli and Macrae. Last year it would have been: Griff, Libba, Minson, Morris, Murphy. So this shows our reliance on the older guys has diminished, although arguably our returns this year have diminished as well.

 

[Mofra]

We were outcoached. How do you get +20 inside 50's but lose a match? The way that you kick it inside 50, the type of delivery. Which is an aspect of coaching.

Our kicking at goal was atrocious - that 20+ differential played out as more shots on goal than the opposition.
Bad kicking is bad football - how often will Stringer miss a soda of a mark in the dying seconds?

 

[VogonProsthetnic]

Our kicking at goal was atrocious - that 20+ differential played out as more shots on goal than the opposition.
Bad kicking is bad football - how often will Stringer miss a soda of a mark in the dying seconds?

Koby and Dahlhaus have been the worst offenders this season. Can someone tell them to kick more than 5m from the man on the mark. Grand finals are won and lost by bad kicks ask Cameron Mooney.

 

[timtamWB]

Koby and Dahlhaus have been the worst offenders this season. Can someone tell them to kick more than 5m from the man on the mark. Grand finals are won and lost by bad kicks ask Cameron Mooney.

14.9 from Koby this season, he's been far from the worst at it.

 

[stmookeyj]

14.9 from Koby this season, he's been far from the worst at it.

How many of those were from set shots? I don't imagine too many would have been from a set shot.


Just one thing the coaching staff should have done in regards to today. We all know we blew a decent lead against Essendon a month ago, and good teams heed the lessons learned from losses like that (How? Why?) Similar scenario today with a lower margin (19 against Essendon, 10 today), yet the same problem in defending a strong position in the last quarter. Surely the message would have been drummed in via a runner, if not at the final interval about not letting the opportunity slip.

 

[Mofra]

Koby and Dahlhaus have been the worst offenders this season. Can someone tell them to kick more than 5m from the man on the mark. Grand finals are won and lost by bad kicks ask Cameron Mooney.

Dahlhaus missed being drafted because of his kicking; I agree with the second part of your post.
Stevens isn't a bad kick, he lacks awareness and makes poor decisions sometimes (generally from trying to do too much).

Both are classic examples of players whose good outweighs their bad, but we need to add players who are good decision makers and good kicks to balance our team ledger. Hrovat is a classic example - does both well.

 

[ThirdLegUp]

I have been meaning to write a detailed post in this thread for a while, but won't get to it for another few days I suspect - so I'll just put a specific thought bubble out there for discussion.

One thing I have been thinking of is that Macca has actually backed himself into a slight corner here with his tactics. While I don't necessarily disagree with the broader strategy, it does appear that we have sacrificed the short term wins with the longer term view of developing players. My question comes from, what if next year doesn't reap the rewards of this strategy ? If we've spent all this year and two offseasons (last and next) getting people ready for the AFL - and they are still not ready - will he come under pressure ? This year has all been about developing the systems in the VFL, if this doesn't bear fruit, where does that leave us ? At what point do people start asking - are we developing enough players, or only at the top end.

We've all been wondering about the Roberts/Talia/Austin/Roughead situation for example. If we were to let Austin go and next year Talia and Roberts don't come on as hoped - does that threaten the overall strategy ? Obviously this could have been tested (to a certain degree) this season, rather than playing Austin. Don't take this as Austin bashing, he's had good games and bad ones since his upgrade - I'm just using it as an example. This means that we keep Talia and Roberts on the list next year, potentially missing the chance to delist/trade - meaning our rebuild is slightly delayed by not assessing these guys at the top level. There were certainly opportunities this year to test this theory.

Now there is balance here, as players develop at different rates and sometimes you cannot assess players until they've got the body and skills ready to actually play at the top level - but there is a risk that our planned improvement stalls by believing that people will improve, when in reality they dont. If this occurs next year, do we have the patience to play the long term game again and wait, or do we panic. While the board may be believing in the improvement, it may be put to the test next year.

Personally I believe this year has not been a complete waste, frustrating as it may be. When people write the list of our top 5 players next year, it will read: Griff, Libba, Stringer, Bontempelli and Macrae. Last year it would have been: Griff, Libba, Minson, Morris, Murphy. So this shows our reliance on the older guys has diminished, although arguably our returns this year have diminished as well.

This would have been a calculated risk i believe. There is no plan without risks, and every plan has aspects left up to chance. Many coaches put plans into action that failed because those risks didn't pay off. Had they paid off, we would have been singing their praises. It is a calculated risk, and macca is no different to malthouse, voss or thompson, that at least part of their plan relies on chance.

Supurb drafting was the first stage of the devalopment, (you can see how risky this is, it can all fall apart right here)the next stage is getting these kids to blossom quickly. (again, you can't know how fast a kid will come on) both are ongoing and are not simply a one time, grab 20 kids, make em awesome. its, grab 4 a year and make em awesome, before the next batch. it is risky, but so far that part has proven successful. Probably because macca already had a blueprint for how to do this from his geelong days. But it is a very long term plan. and i think this draft season will be the second phase of that design, where we bring in ready made talent to bolster the gains of 2-3 drafts, while clearing out the deadwood as much as we can.

This is why i am so interested in this off season. If we don't trade and remain quiet, then it is clear we are still in phase one of draftiing kids and building them up quickly. If we play a big part in the off season, then i will take that as, first phase complete, a core of great kids, lets fill the holes. And given we went for crameri last year, i think we will move into phase two this off season. Next year will not be devalopment. But the announcement of the bulldogs intent.

a risky game we are playing, but i like it, if for no othre reason then it is differnt to what we have seen countless times before. The line between genius and madness is often the fall of the coin.

 

[stmookeyj]

Both are classic examples of players whose good outweighs their bad, but we need to add players who are good decision makers and good kicks to balance our team ledger. Hrovat is a classic example - does both well.

Except today Nathan made 3 lazy turnovers not acceptable at Under 10's level that cost 3 goals.....admittedly one was a handball.

 

[Toastman]

There is little joy in any doggies household tonight but it is delusional to think a senior coach after three years is willing to take a hit in games to teach players the right way to play. WT? That is what the VFL team is for, in the seniors it is the implementation of a winning plan at the highest level. The MC's performance this year is farcical from selection to game plans. All of these men are well paid, full time professionals who have let the members down, their lack of vision is mind boggling.

It's delusional to think we had any choice but to still be trying to develop after three years given the circumstances.

 

[TedDougChris]

This would have been a calculated risk i believe. There is no plan without risks, and every plan has aspects left up to chance. Many coaches put plans into action that failed because those risks didn't pay off. Had they paid off, we would have been singing their praises. It is a calculated risk, and macca is no different to malthouse, voss or thompson, that at least part of their plan relies on chance.

Supurb drafting was the first stage of the devalopment, (you can see how risky this is, it can all fall apart right here)the next stage is getting these kids to blossom quickly. (again, you can't know how fast a kid will come on) both are ongoing and are not simply a one time, grab 20 kids, make em awesome. its, grab 4 a year and make em awesome, before the next batch. it is risky, but so far that part has proven successful. Probably because macca already had a blueprint for how to do this from his geelong days. But it is a very long term plan. and i think this draft season will be the second phase of that design, where we bring in ready made talent to bolster the gains of 2-3 drafts, while clearing out the deadwood as much as we can.

This is why i am so interested in this off season. If we don't trade and remain quiet, then it is clear we are still in phase one of draftiing kids and building them up quickly. If we play a big part in the off season, then i will take that as, first phase complete, a core of great kids, lets fill the holes. And given we went for crameri last year, i think we will move into phase two this off season. Next year will not be devalopment. But the announcement of the bulldogs intent.

a risky game we are playing, but i like it, if for no othre reason then it is differnt to what we have seen countless times before. The line between genius and madness is often the fall of the coin.

Agreed, but it's a calculated gamble that doesn't necessarily leave him with an easy out next year. For example, 10 games into Talia and Roberts this year, 15 - 18 next year, he can point to them playing a full year the year after.... Whereas this strategy gives him - ummm, the kids haven't developed as we hoped... Not quite as good a defence....

Good post though....

 

[the dog's kennel]

A thought for this thread:

There are some who want to sack Macca immediately, some who want him to see out his contract, and some who want to give him another year and then sack him a year early if we haven't seen an improvement. But the last two views are entirely dependent on the fact the club game him a contract extension this year. If he had never received that contract extension, what would you favour doing with him now his original contract was up?

Speaking for myself, I think I would give him a one year extension. That would be my way of saying, "We want to see more of your plan, but from now on you are going to be made fully accountable."

What about you guys? Are there people who think he should stay for now, but who would have sacked him if he had never received that contract extension?

 

[ThirdLegUp]

Agreed, but it's a calculated gamble that doesn't necessarily leave him with an easy out next year. For example, 10 games into Talia and Roberts this year, 15 - 18 next year, he can point to them playing a full year the year after.... Whereas this strategy gives him - ummm, the kids haven't developed as we hoped... Not quite as good a defence....

Good post though....

Indeed, he has no out clause if that happens. "they were no good enough" then why did you persist and wast a year? "they are good enough" they why were you not able to get them to devalope?
i guess you have to put you ass on the line in this business. Macca is no different.

 

[TedDougChris]

A thought for this thread:

There are some who want to sack Macca immediately, some who want him to see out his contract, and some who want to give him another year and then sack him a year early if we haven't seen an improvement. But the last two views are entirely dependent on the fact the club game him a contract extension this year. If he had never received that contract extension, what would you favour doing with him now his original contract was up?

Speaking for myself, I think I would give him a one year extension. That would be my way of saying, "We want to see more of your plan, but from now on you are going to be made fully accountable."

What about you guys? Are there people who think he should stay for now, but who would have sacked him if he had never received that contract extension?

Dangerous question, opens up massive cans of worms..... You realise there are people on this board actively working towards time travel to prevent Macca from ever being born, they hate him so much.....

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

McCartney's contracted for another 2 years, so we can put that talk to bed.

Agree with your premise though the dog's kennel.