Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

[immortalmike]

Fair to say, getting beaten by GWS who were missing probably 5 of their best 7-8 players, in Victoria was our worst effort for the season - at least in our bottom 3 efforts.

Does anyone dispute we aren't in the lower rungs of the clubs in the AFL after yesterday's performance? OK, we're not as bad as StKilda and Melb so maybe they're a rung lower than us but that's about it. At least right now. Next season is different though.

Meh it was a pretty meaningless match. I understand in the heat of the battle feeling angry or upset but to continue to wallow in self-pity the next day. No thanks.

 

[Butane]

Less concerned with the way players develop than how they are handled. Macca has handled Stringer and Macrae, at the very least, exceptionally well this season.

I dunno if I can agree with that. They were picks 5 and 6. Ollie Wines went the pick after them. Toumpas went the pick before. I suspect we would have seen the same output from any of those 4 players regardless of where they landed.

 

[Claudonious]

Donald Rumsfeld once stated:

Reports that say that Macca cannot coach -- that he just cannot coach are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things that we know that we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

Well, it might have been about WMD's in Iraq, but you know what I mean.. or perhaps you dont know.

I reckon in this instance a lot of us are in position where there are plenty of unknown/known unknowns/knowns when it comes to a judgement on whether
the guy can coach. In scientific terms, there is no "control" in place for us to further reinforce our judgement - ie a level playing field, an equal measure
of KPP's in all teams which would mean a level playing field in which to make such a judgement.

Rumsfeld didn't find any WMD's in the end.....and perhaps Macca cannot coach. Rumsfeld drew his conclusion after an extensive search that took some
TIME. I conclude therefore.......

 

[cleveland]

I'm happy to wait and see for another year on Macca...think the club will be in a better position to make a informed decision at the end of 2015 rather than now.

I am however a bit concerned about the continual rumours that a group of players hate him...I understand not every player on the list will like the senior coach for various reasons but I think they should atleast respect him. rumours are rumours but they have been around all year

 

[Mattdougie]

He hasn't handled Smith very well? Smith was playing great footy till he did his knee. This year he did his shoulder then did his knee again. How can you possibly blame Macca for that. Also Minson was AA last year. Handled pretty well if you ask me.

Yeah smith had 2 warnings pre season so no he wasn't happy

And exactly Minson has gone from AA to completely over played and over worked due to sh!t handling

 

[1961grandfinal]

I reckon in this instance a lot of us are in position where there are plenty of unknown/known unknowns/knowns when it comes to a judgement on whether the guy can coach. In scientific terms, there is no "control" in place for us to further reinforce our judgement - ie a level playing field, an equal measure of KPP's in all teams which would mean a level playing field in which to make such a judgement.

Rumsfeld didn't find any WMD's in the end.....and perhaps Macca cannot coach. Rumsfeld drew his conclusion after an extensive search that took some TIME. I conclude therefore.......

Rumsfeld is a lying, corrupt SOB who waited decades to get his plan in place, that is too long to wait for Macca for me as i will be long gone

 

[inyourfacedunk]

Minson was the single ruck for most of the year because Campbell just isn't ready for that yet. He rucks in the same mold as Minson and Minson does it better (even with a limited pre-season). Play both of them all year and you get an even slower team than is already there.

Play Ayce as second ruck to Minson instead and Ayce wouldn't have developed as much as he did in the VFL this year.

Maybe you're right. Maybe he was not managed well at all. But the way I see it is they had no other choice.

 

[Super Hans]

Yeah smith had 2 warnings pre season so no he wasn't happy

And exactly Minson has gone from AA to completely over played and over worked due to sh!t handling

So do you give Macca credit for Minsons AA year last year? I'm guessing not. Cause when a player has an awesome year, they're just doing what good players do. But when a player has a bad year it's automatically Macca's fault.

 

[King Harold]

Yeah smith had 2 warnings pre season so no he wasn't happy

And exactly Minson has gone from AA to completely over played and over worked due to sh!t handling

Not sure where your getting your info from MD , but I have a contact very very close to Smith and according to that source the club has had no issue with Smith , was told it seems to have become an urban myth.

 

[Mattdougie]

So do you give Macca credit for Minsons AA year last year? I'm guessing not. Cause when a player has an awesome year, they're just doing what good players do. But when a player has a bad year it's automatically Macca's fault.

Actually I do give him some credit for Minos year last year.

But he had to know that due to Minos last year teams would plan to beat him and they have double teamed him and made him run all year. Constantly pushing forward then back making him run and run.

Macca has provided next to no help for him and hasn't even rested him and THAT is a direct reason his form this year has been poor.

 

[Zgope1]

everyone in the league obsesses over some of our young talent. Some of the reasons for that have just come through this year, such as Bonts and Stringer in the back half of the season. Let's give the bloke who set them up at the club the first chance to take this team forward with them now that he's got them here

 

[Mattdougie]

So do you give Macca credit for Minsons AA year last year? I'm guessing not. Cause when a player has an awesome year, they're just doing what good players do. But when a player has a bad year it's automatically Macca's fault.

Actually I do give him some credit for Minos year last year.

But he had to know that due to Minos last year teams would plan to beat him and they have double teamed him and made him run all year. Constantly pushing forward then back making him run and run.

Macca has provided next to no help for him and hasn't even rested him and THAT is a direct reason his form this year has been poor.

Not sure where your getting your info from MD , but I have a contact very very close to Smith and according to that source the club has had no issue with Smith , was told it seems to have
become an urban myth.

Well your info is wrong because one warning was in the news and I believe Macca even referred to it pre season, I shall attempt to find this now

I don't think it was much other than a few younger boys has a nite on the p!ss and turned up to training pretty poor

 

[King Harold]

Actually I do give him some credit for Minos year last year.

But he had to know that due to Minos last year teams would plan to beat him and they have double teamed him and made him run all year. Constantly pushing forward then back making him run and run.

Macca has provided next to no help for him and hasn't even rested him and THAT is a direct reason his form this year has been poor.

Well your info is wrong because one warning was in the news and I believe Macca even referred to it pre season, I shall attempt to find this now

I don't think it was much other than a few younger boys has a nite on the p!ss and turned up to training pretty poor

Thank you MD , if you find it I will have to take back what I have offered up.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

everyone in the league obsesses over some of our young talent. Some of the reasons for that have just come through this year, such as Bonts and Stringer in the back half of the season. Let's give the bloke who set them up at the club the first chance to take this team forward with them now that he's got them here

There's no doubt that he's developed young talent. Even some of the absolute biggest detractors of our coach wouldn't dispute that
Others like me suggest that getting these players to adhere to a system, structure and tactics on field in the way that they're coached tactically, structurally and their work ethic is way off the mark at AFL level and McCartney is out of his depth in that aspect.

 

[Mattdougie]

There's no doubt that he's developed young talent. Even some of the absolute biggest detractors of our coach wouldn't dispute that
Others like me suggest that getting these players to adhere to a system, structure and tactics on field in the way that they're coached tactically, structurally and their work ethic is way off the mark at AFL level and McCartney is out of his depth in that aspect.

I'm one of his detractors and I dispute it?

What says he has developed these kids and they haven't just naturally developed due to their own ability?

And there are more players that have stagnated or gone backwards than anyone can list that have developed

Be iase we have a handful of very very good young footballers doesn't mean Macca developed then coz they could do the same under any coach if they are that good

 

[Zgope1]

There's no doubt that he's developed young talent. Even some of the absolute biggest detractors of our coach wouldn't dispute that
Others like me suggest that getting these players to adhere to a system, structure and tactics on field in the way that they're coached tactically, structurally and their work ethic is way off the mark at AFL level and McCartney is out of his depth in that aspect.

I can't really think of many coaches in afl history that could make a team as young as the one we put on the park many times this year be able to consistently adhere to a style that was going to get us into finals or much higher than we were. Fact is when you look out the age of our list, the lack of kpps/kpp depth and the fact that our two AAs and fb from last year played somewhat underdone you can't genuinely be that surprised at the results. What you can be is excited that we got so much excitement out of our first and second year players.

what i will concede is that it's hard to understand some of the selections across the year- eg. not playing two kpfs. going undersized a lot down back. not enough games for Roberts.

i'll cop it but if it's still this case next year and not offset sufficiently by results then we've got something to worry about. I hope it is just a development thing, which is possible from how we've seen the Stringer switch help him so much, as the man has proclaimed himself

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I'm one of his detractors and I dispute it?

What says he has developed these kids and they haven't just naturally developed due to their own ability?

And there are more players that have stagnated or gone backwards than anyone can list that have developed

Be iase we have a handful of very very good young footballers doesn't mean Macca developed then coz they could do the same under any coach if they are that good

Blokes like Stringer, Macrae, Hrovat, Bontempelli, Honeychurch, Hunter, have exceeded draft-time expectations - both internal and external - which can be attributed to young player development. For example, each and every one of those players would have higher trade value than their respective draft picks.
Either that, or it's absolutely bloody fantastic drafting - but even then, we would still rate them internally. For example I remember reading on this forum that somebody had inside word that they expected Bontempelli to play minimally this year and for him to develop in the VFL. I'm sure nobody expected Macrae to play 21 games and come 12th in the league for total disposals.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

I've supported

Well your info is wrong because one warning was in the news and I believe Macca even referred to it pre season, I shall attempt to find this now

I don't think it was much other than a few younger boys has a nite on the p!ss and turned up to training pretty poor

Was it the weekend of his 21st at Bairnsdale?

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

I dunno if I can agree with that. They were picks 5 and 6. Ollie Wines went the pick after them. Toumpas went the pick before. I suspect we would have seen the same output from any of those 4 players regardless of where they landed.

Context is important here.

I believe Stringer and Macrae, with the use of Footscray, the media, etc, have been handled exceptionally well by the coach this year. Whether that's getting a bake, being dropped, being switched around - I'm very happy with how they've been managed - this is irrespective of their performance/potential performance at the Dogs/any other club.

I think you're referring to the idea that they'd have slotted into any club and their output would've been similar - we have no way of knowing.

That's why I bothered to respond in the first place.

And hasn't handled Talia Jones Smith Minson very well at all.

Disagree on Talia (he knows where he's at, was slaughtered in AFL earlier in year) and Smith (he's had 2 ACLs and an AC in less than 12 months, how in EJ's name has he been mismanaged by Macca? ), but yes, the other two have been handled poorly.

 

[King Harold]

Was it the weekend of his 21st at Bairnsdale?

Had a mate that spent the next day with them at the local footy , week end of the bye , and yes some had a fair drink the night before , but my understanding there were no problems or the breaking of any team rules.
But if MD has info I'm not privy to , I will have to take that on board.

 

[dogsfan]

Actually I do give him some credit for Minos year last year.

But he had to know that due to Minos last year teams would plan to beat him and they have double teamed him and made him run all year. Constantly pushing forward then back making him run and run.

Macca has provided next to no help for him and hasn't even rested him and THAT is a direct reason his form this year has been poor.

Interesting observation but I think that this may be have been done on purpose for two important reasons?

1. To allow Campbell and Cordy to develop as a ruck fwd team together in the VFL and

2. Minson is not in Maccas future plans especially after being unexpectedly dropped for the swans game.

 

[ThirdLegUp]

Donald Rumsfeld once stated:

Reports that say that Macca cannot coach -- that he just cannot coach are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things that we know that we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

Well, it might have been about WMD's in Iraq, but you know what I mean.. or perhaps you dont know.

I reckon in this instance a lot of us are in position where there are plenty of unknown/known unknowns/knowns when it comes to a judgement on whether
the guy can coach. In scientific terms, there is no "control" in place for us to further reinforce our judgement - ie a level playing field, an equal measure
of KPP's in all teams which would mean a level playing field in which to make such a judgement.

Rumsfeld didn't find any WMD's in the end.....and perhaps Macca cannot coach. Rumsfeld drew his conclusion after an extensive search that took some
TIME. I conclude therefore.......

So what your saying is, we need to find evidence of oil profits before we can actually recognise there is coaching skill or wmd's at the bulldogs...

I agree.

 

[jamesDP]

Another day, another loss, same old same old, at the end of the day, and no matter how you look at it, digest it, digress it, pull it apart, individualise it, we have a poor coaching panel headed by McCartney. Sorry for the people here who think that wins don't matter, they do. 14,127 odd people at Etihad yesterday was poor. Performance and success goes hand in hand and I have never been to a doggies game for such a long time that you could hear a pin being dropped in the first half. Only livened up in the 3rd quarter when the players decided to have a go. Last quarter was lively again, but we fell away again. Talk about a show killer when the Giants kicked the last quarter. I ran into Brent Prisnall on the way out, complimented him on the spirit that was shown at the Footscray v Williamstown game and the lack of it in the AFL game. He agreed with me, he also told me to "stick fat" with the team, 50 years of sticking fat, is now tending to be a bit thinner. My point overall is that no matter what the McCartney fans here say, he has failed to deliver the goods, yeah we have a few young players that will get better, but so do the other 17 clubs. You can say what you like about McCartney, but there are a lot of disenchanted and frustrated supporters that have had a gutful of him and Mr Gordon in re-appointing him for a further two years made a big error. Good luck getting members to join up next year. I do not believe that Brendan McCartney will be a successful senior coach at the Western Bulldogs now or in the future. Nice man, good after five dinner speaker, loyal, has all the ingredients, but not the recipe that is needed to coach successfully in the AFL. I now rest my case, hope that he can turn it around, always live in hope. It won't happen and come next year, there will be more and more posts on the same subject.

 

[yebiga]

This coaching caper may all be a bit overblown in importance. Everyone who knows attests Maple occupies a category all his own, when it comes to his lack of coaching acumen. Yet, his team keeps getting stronger, every week.

It is too easy to dismiss this as a joke, when in fact the entire McCartney philosophy is underpinned by the undeniable fact that the coach does not play. The players must become more mature and coach themselves.

Its like when Neo says to Morpheus," do you expect me to dodge bullets?" And Morpheus says " no Neo, I am telling you that when you are ready, you won't need to"

Or when Neo tries to learn to bend the spoon with his mind and the idiot savant kid with the alien head says " don't try to bend the spoon,Neo that is impossible, only realise, there is no spoon"

I have taken the red pill, i am jumping down the rabbit hole and those of you who refuse to or taken the blue pill, can just get the hell out of my head right now.

 

[ivan rassmussen]

14,127 odd people at Etihad yesterday was poor.

14,725. in total, but I agree though, at least 14,127 of them were very odd. The people behind me were complete odd-balls.