Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

[threenewpadlocks]

I hope we actually get some people who know what they're doing in the coaching box with McCartney next year.

I can understand the reasoning and necessity behind what he's doing, but believe he's poor at doing it.

Poor team selection, lack of evidence of development for a so-called strength of his (players like Talia and Hunter went backwards this year and that's just two examples), mismanagement of talented players like Wallis, Jones and Grant, and painstakingly obvious tactical deficiencies in multiple games like vs GWS all have me worried.

If he's stated that we needed three years of development so be it. But that's the limit. No club should need four years of development. It doesn't take a coach four years. Three years is enough. We need to win games with the best team selection this next season.

 

[Next Waiting]

I think our development of players still has a bit to be desired sadly...

I think in a few cases it's hard to make a silk purse out of a sows ear and in other cases it's hard for old dogs to learn new tricks. But I think Wallis is a good example of successful development. I had him out the door early this season but he's turned in some very good and latterly consistent performances as he learned from experiences outside his comfort zone and then his role became more defined. That seems like good development to me. I think the players 23-24 yrs old and under, who aren't sows ears, will develop very successfully under Macca. There is some hope for a few of the 25+ but not all.

 

[wian]

I like Macca, but i think we need a better match day coach who has better tactics and plans and can get the best out of blokes....

 

[Next Waiting]

I like Macca, but i think we need a better match day coach who has better tactics and plans and can get the best out of blokes....

Personally, I think this is a much overstated term. I've heard both Hinkley and Roos in recent times lament how little influence they can have from the coaches box on match day. What they really want is skilled, well drilled and, importantly, thinking and composed players with good decision making skills, particularly amongst the leaders/senior players. There are naturally game plans and pre-match tactics and then match ups that can be changed/tweaked along the way but coaches are heavily reliant on the decisions players make individually and collectively on the field, in real time, in what is a very fluid game. In my view, apart from skills, on field decision making and leadership are at least as important, and probably moreso, than match day coaching from the box. We have been sorely lacking in that department for a very long time in my view but in the younger players I see a lot of promise.

 

[TedDougChris]

I hope we actually get some people who know what they're doing in the coaching box with McCartney next year.

I can understand the reasoning and necessity behind what he's doing, but believe he's poor at doing it.

Poor team selection, lack of evidence of development for a so-called strength of his (players like Talia and Hunter went backwards this year and that's just two examples), mismanagement of talented players like Wallis, Jones and Grant, and painstakingly obvious tactical deficiencies in multiple games like vs GWS all have me worried.

If he's stated that we needed three years of development so be it. But that's the limit. No club should need four years of development. It doesn't take a coach four years. Three years is enough. We need to win games with the best team selection this next season.

I think he's made mistakes, but I think you're overlooking a few things. In three years, you cannot turn a list around.

Look at the 2011 list: Boyd, Cross, Griffen, Ward, Murphy, Higgins, Gia, Picken, Libba, Cooney, Hudson, Morris, Sherman, Gilbee, Jones, Williams, Wood, Grant, Hill, Markovic, Dahl, BBBBBH, Barlow, Stack, Minson, Roughie, DJ, Hargrave, Schofield, Howard, Wallis, Tutt, Lake, Addison, Hooper, Moles, Reid, Veszpremi, Cordy, Mulligan, Skinner.

Now, let's quickly break this list into those who could play and can't play - I'll be arbitrary here and more than a bit harsh. Those we've delisted (only), not retired or injured. I've kept those like Lake (who wanted out and kept playing) but included Addison, Cross and Reid - as these were largely pity trades to give them another chance - they wouldn't have stayed on our list. Bold above is those who we decided at some point can't continue to play for us.

That by my count is 15 players - it doesn't include Tutt, Cordy, Jones or Grant - all of which people are quite undecided/have mixed views on their abilities.
If you add those who have left: Lake, Hill, Ward - that's three more.
If you add the retirees: Gia, Williams, BBBBH, Hargrave, Hudson, Gilbee.

So the departees number 24 - excluding Tutt etc and what ever happens this year.

That's 8 changes to the list (either via draft or trade) required for each of the three years Macca has been in the role. That also assumes, that every player you bring into the club - works. As we've seen with Lower, Sherman, DJ, Vesz and potentially will see with Goodes, Fuller - that doesn't always work.

So Macca needed to make 8 changes a year and get everyone of these decisions correct - to have turned over the list. In an era of compromised drafts, free agency and COLA.... I just don't think that is a realistic expectation. You'd be selecting kids at Pick 123 and it wouldn't be a good outcome for us. In addition to this, you end up replacing a 85 - 90 kg midfielder with a 70 kg midfielder - and you cannot field an entire side of kids and be competitive - GWS, Melbourne and GCS have taught us that....

I think we should be cutting deeper than we have, particularly with people like Howard, Greenwood and this year - Fuller and Boyd. I think we don't turn over the list fast enough and I feel we should take a KPP at every draft. Whether rookie or normal, I don't care.

I also feel far more players have improved than have gone backwards under his management (I don't think Wallis or Hunter are good examples IMO) and that the club has a much better focus on building from the ground up - developing a deep list of talent that is the envy of the competition. Do we still need to improve and would some actual information on MC selections be nice - bloody oath it would... I've never seen a group of supporters so bewildered by a MC before....

I agree with your last comment, winning games, not development has to be the focus next year. Development can now occur in the VFL, try to structure the side and get the best 22 on the park every week - try and transfer the winning culture from the VFL into the seniors and start pushing upwards...

 

[Proffessor]

It is interesting to compare the Sanderson sacking situation with our own coaching situation.

Adelaide has decided that despite Sanderson getting the team into the finals in his first year, having a Win/Loss record of 56.5%, and having some major setbacks beyond his control, such as the Tippett issue (with associated penalties), and injury to Walker, that he hadn't demonstrated enough in his 3 years to indicate that he had the capacity to take them to glory. This may be considered harsh but 3 years is a long time and they were a fair way off the mark this year. Further than perhaps he might be able to justify by Walker's injury, and highlighted by the form of their crosstown rivals.

We on the other hand, have had a coach that hasn't had to deal with any such obstacles, and has overseen a team that has performed terribly (30.3% win/loss) over the same period. Yet people seem to think that it must be proven beyond any doubt that he is a poor coach before he is shown the door.

3 years full time coaching is a long period. It may not be beyond doubt that he is totally incompetent in the role, but I think it is beyond doubt that he isn't a great senior coach. The contract extension gave him clear support, and ensured each of his 3 years were virtually free from media scrutiny regarding the security of his tenure. Yet he still hasn't proven himself in any way shape or form.

Sticking with a coach that provides no excitement to supporters for next season, and who will be under ever increasing pressure due to his poor record, does the club no good at all. Time for a serious football department review.

 

[Easty]

I'm thinking about starting a poll - 'Do you think we'll make the 8 next season?'

Seems like that's the only way you'll view next year as successful and McCartney as any good. For mine I think we're still looking at 2016 and it'll be another year of frustrating inconsistency next year. But unless we go backwards I won't be jumping off Macca just yet.

 

[fronkalicious]

I'm thinking about starting a poll - 'Do you think we'll make the 8 next season?'

Seems like that's the only way you'll view next year as successful and McCartney as any good. For mine I think we're still looking at 2016 and it'll be another year of frustrating inconsistency next year. But unless we go backwards I won't be jumping off Macca just yet.

We might go backwards again next year. Very real chance

 

[TempleKelvington]

Ok I have heard all the excuses why we haven't drafted KPS and I think they are just that, excuses but that's fine that's what u guys think

So what's the EXCUSE for no speed? And poor skilled players?

C'mon guys when do they excuses end ??

Seriously this isn't a Macca issue this is a club issue and we draft the same thing year after year, inside mids that arnt fast but are tough!

And that isn't due to compromised drafts.

Ok give us the KP players you would have drafted in the last 2 years ahead of Bont, Stringer and Macrea. Apart from the late draft gems other team selected, all the best rated talls were gobbled up by GWS and GC. Not sure what we could have done about that. Perhaps we could have punted on some later ones, but the early stuff we nailed I reckon.

Our last couple of drafts have netted very skilled players. The issues are with players drafted earlier. I think if you throw in a KP gun and a another good tall defender into our mix and we'd be a different kettle of fish. We are not as far off as you think. I think you are panicked, it's too early to make the judgments you are making, but respect your opinion as you might be right ultimately. But it's premature.

 

[TempleKelvington]

We might go backwards again next year. Very real chance

Yep we might. In terms of win loss it's possible. But in the next 2 years we have to measure more than win loss to determine how we are going. The media will measure us on that of course. The club needs to look beyond it though.

 

[TempleKelvington]

It is interesting to compare the Sanderson sacking situation with our own coaching situation.

Adelaide has decided that despite Sanderson getting the team into the finals in his first year, having a Win/Loss record of 56.5%, and having some major setbacks beyond his control, such as the Tippett issue (with associated penalties), and injury to Walker, that he hadn't demonstrated enough in his 3 years to indicate that he had the capacity to take them to glory. This may be considered harsh but 3 years is a long time and they were a fair way off the mark this year. Further than perhaps he might be able to justify by Walker's injury, and highlighted by the form of their crosstown rivals.

We on the other hand, have had a coach that hasn't had to deal with any such obstacles, and has overseen a team that has performed terribly (30.3% win/loss) over the same period. Yet people seem to think that it must be proven beyond any doubt that he is a poor coach before he is shown the door.

3 years full time coaching is a long period. It may not be beyond doubt that he is totally incompetent in the role, but I think it is beyond doubt that he isn't a great senior coach. The contract extension gave him clear support, and ensured each of his 3 years were virtually free from media scrutiny regarding the security of his tenure. Yet he still hasn't proven himself in any way shape or form.

Sticking with a coach that provides no excitement to supporters for next season, and who will be under ever increasing pressure due to his poor record, does the club no good at all. Time for a serious football department review.

Can't compare their list to ours. Much further developed, they have good KP players too. The point is, why appoint Sanderson for 3 more years only to remove him 1 year in. If so, why not sack the people that made that decision?

Our board nailed where we are at. Appointed the man for the job based on the time it would require to sort things out. To bail on that under current circumstances would be ridiculous. If things were catastrophic then different matter. It's far from that.

We have to stop this mentality of happy when we win and soooo sad when we lose as a way to run a footy club. It's ridiculous.

 

[black pup]

Loved Ken Hinkley press conference, " if anybody likes to watch attacking football, come and watch us, we will not stop the way we play"
All right, who did all the developing at Geelong, defence, dour, never played Macca, or a great player in Ken Hinkley, who coaches players too attack, take the game on, and run and run.
I know what game plan I would prefer, half the time Macca is coaching to limit the damage, he is such a panic merchant, he starts dropping players behind the ball in anticipation of losing.
I really hope he is sacked next week, to stop the rot and or damage he is causing.
Teaching, teaching, developing, work hard at work. They are a good side, they are a great club, give me a break, we have appointed a proper DUD.
We have to cut him know to limit the damage.

 

[black pup]

You live in dreamland, you have no idea how hard it is to play AFL, come to think of it, neither does your new found mate Macca, who I have had many discussions with. I don't like the way he try's to coach and handle players.
I and Cyclops Rules have explained the Jones situation to death.
Have a look at Ken Hinkley, how Port are coached, both at Geelong, both took on teams in same position, who has the DUD.

Sanderson took over the most poorly run well resourced club in the AFL, did a reasonable job, had an explanation for everything that went wrong, and they sacked him as a scapegoat because the campaigners on the board are too proud and too deluded to fall on their swords.

Adelaide is a disgracefully run football club, we shouldn't be taking any leaves from their book.

He had a try at destroying Macrae? Sorry, but that is absolutely pure unadulterated bullshit. Macrae's an outstanding offensive weapon, but at times he was useless without ball in hand. He needed a bake and he got it.

As for Jones, what the hell? I thought everyone thought that he was a spud (for the record, I've just about been his biggest defender for the last 3 years), now it's McCartney's fault that he's not performing?

I can understand and empathise with many coherent reasons for wanting McCartney's head, but people are drawing idiotic and irrelevant conclusions from the evidence at hand, and behaving as if everyone else is deluded. Tragic.

Oh, and *sips Kool Aid*, for your benefit.

 

[black pup]

Macca another excuse, Macca at Bulldogs, Hinkley at Port, clubs in same position, compare the way both teams play, both at Geelong together, what's Macca's problem or excuse, Mattdougie is smack on. Macca he is a DUD, and he will not last at Bulldogs, I hope we sack him next week, as it is only a matter of time, we must limit the damage.

Can't compare their list to ours. Much further developed, they have good KP players too. The point is, why appoint Sanderson for 3 more years only to remove him 1 year in. If so, why not sack the people that made that decision?

Our board nailed where we are at. Appointed the man for the job based on the time it would require to sort things out. To bail on that under current circumstances would be ridiculous. If things were catastrophic then different matter. It's far from that.

We have to stop this mentality of happy when we win and soooo sad when we lose as a way to run a footy club. It's ridiculous.[/QUOT

 

[Mutt]

You live in dreamland, you have no idea how hard it is to play AFL, come to think of it, neither does your new found mate Macca, who I have had many discussions with. I don't like the way he try's to coach and handle players.
I and Cyclops Rules have explained the Jones situation to death.
Have a look at Ken Hinkley, how Port are coached, both at Geelong, both took on teams in same position, who has the DUD.

The last Port Adelaide finals appearance before their current resurgence was in 2007. Port were in the bottom half of the ladder and rebuilding for four years before we began the rebuild process. Comparisons with Port are way too early. Hinkley has largely taken the existing Port list, hasn't had to make drastic changes but has coached it superbly. Macca on the other hand has had to contend with a team and list still on the way down which had yet to bottom out.

 

[TempleKelvington]

Macca another excuse, Macca at Bulldogs, Hinkley at Port, clubs in same position, compare the way both teams play, both at Geelong together, what's Macca's problem or excuse, Mattdougie is smack on. Macca he is a DUD, and he will not last at Bulldogs, I hope we sack him next week, as it is only a matter of time, we must limit the damage.

See below BP I reckon Mutt nailed it. You maybe correct that Macca will not ultimately take us to where we want to be, but he's the right guy for what we are doing at the moment in my opinion. I'm not yet convinced of his tactical nous on game day or if he has that innovative spark we got from Wallace and Eade. We may see more evidence of that as he matures as a coach and has better developed cattle at his disposal. It seems to me that we are asking too much at this point of our coach and our list. I have waited a long time for success as we all have and I'm over it too.....but don't we need to be a little pragmatic?

I'm All for asking questions of the coach, I do it all the time. All for wanting more wins. I am not for settling on mediocre, although perhaps it might seem so to some on here. I feel that as a club we have made knee jerk decisions before based on media and supporter unrest. I think there are so many positives with the club on and off field, we are far from a basket case. I can see what is being put in place and it's why I think we must hold the course. I respect your differing view BP, you are a passionate supporter, often a controversial and interesting poster. But I disagree with you that now is the time to make a change to the coach.

The last Port Adelaide finals appearance before their current resurgence was in 2007. Port were in the bottom half of the ladder and rebuilding for four years before we began the rebuild process. Comparisons with Port are way too early. Hinkley has largely taken the existing Port list, hasn't had to make drastic changes but has coached it superbly. Macca on the other hand has had to contend with a team and list still on the way down which had yet to bottom out.

This.

 

[Next Waiting]

Macca another excuse, Macca at Bulldogs, Hinkley at Port, clubs in same position, compare the way both teams play, both at Geelong together, what's Macca's problem or excuse, Mattdougie is smack on. Macca he is a DUD, and he will not last at Bulldogs, I hope we sack him next week, as it is only a matter of time, we must limit the damage.

You cannot be serious surely? The respective lists to begin with and then the cattle added in the last two years. If that is the premise you begin with then I can see how you might reach the conclusion you have but in my view Hinkley started with nothing like the list Macca did.

 

[black pup]

That's fair enough mate, I respect your opinion, but I don't agree.

See below BP I reckon Mutt nailed it. You maybe correct that Macca will not ultimately take us to where we want to be, but he's the right guy for what we are doing at the moment in my opinion. I'm not yet convinced of his tactical nous on game day or if he has that innovative spark we got from Wallace and Eade. We may see more evidence of that as he matures as a coach and has better developed cattle at his disposal. It seems to me that we are asking too much at this point of our coach and our list. I have waited a long time for success as we all have and I'm over it too.....but don't we need to be a little pragmatic?

I'm All for asking questions of the coach, I do it all the time. All for wanting more wins. I am not for settling on mediocre, although perhaps it might seem so to some on here. I feel that as a club we have made knee jerk decisions before based on media and supporter unrest. I think there are so many positives with the club on and off field, we are far from a basket case. I can see what is being put in place and it's why I think we must hold the course. I respect your differing view BP, you are a passionate supporter, often a controversial and interesting poster. But I disagree with you that now is the time to make a change to the coach.



This.

ts

 

[Some Idiot]

Macca another excuse, Macca at Bulldogs, Hinkley at Port, clubs in same position, compare the way both teams play, both at Geelong together, what's Macca's problem or excuse, Mattdougie is smack on. Macca he is a DUD, and he will not last at Bulldogs, I hope we sack him next week, as it is only a matter of time, we must limit the damage.

1. Port already had 3 years worth of high draft picks before Hinkley took over.
2. At the same time they got Hinkley they managed to get Darren Burgess, the best fitness guy in the business.
3. Kochie took over as president and has done probably the best job seen in the AFL in recent years in promoting the club
4. Gun players like Jay Schulz and Robbie Gray are fully fit for the first time in their careers.

And this is just beginning to scratch the surface of things that have gone right at Port that aren't related to the coach at all.

 

[yebiga]

This is not entirely the right thread, but port play a style of football which is irresistible to watch. They don't have the talent of Sydney and Hawthorn but they took it right up to hawthorn and I have little doubt had they had the week off like Hawthorn they would have comfortably beaten them.

When this season is over, I suspect coaches will be looking to emulate more parts of the Port style than they will Sydenys or Hawthorns. I really hope Macca is one of those.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

You live in dreamland, you have no idea how hard it is to play AFL, come to think of it, neither does your new found mate Macca, who I have had many discussions with. I don't like the way he try's to coach and handle players.
I and Cyclops Rules have explained the Jones situation to death.
Have a look at Ken Hinkley, how Port are coached, both at Geelong, both took on teams in same position, who has the DUD.

You have had many discussions with Macca? Did you voice your concerns to him, as forcefully as you express them here? Did he give you any explanations about the way he handles Jones, or anyone else? Did you call him a dud to his face and if not, why not?

 

[GetDimmaBack]

Speaking of coaches who "turned it around", how did you like Terry Wallace's work in 1997?

He took over a side that was down and out, and almost (should have?) won a flag! Great work, coach!

Fact was, he actually had a team that contained plenty of mature, ready to go players. 1996 was a year of injuries, internal problems and financial issues.

Once these things were sorted out, via Smorgo and a return of fitness to players like Scott West, we were an "overnight success" and Wallace was a genius.

Why don't we get Wallace to come back now? After all, he was the Master Coach!











Umm, how was the drafting and development of young players in the Wallace era?
And where did he leave us?

 

[yebiga]

Macca another excuse, Macca at Bulldogs, Hinkley at Port, clubs in same position, compare the way both teams play, both at Geelong together, what's Macca's problem or excuse, Mattdougie is smack on. Macca he is a DUD, and he will not last at Bulldogs, I hope we sack him next week, as it is only a matter of time, we must limit the damage.

I am curious at what point in Macca's tenure did you decide he was a dud?
I seem to remember someone calling the Coach of our Reserves team playing in today's grand final a dud after his first game. Or was it before?
I believe there were some Essendon supporters who called Sheedy a dud in his first season and every season there after. It was after the 25th year and 4 premiership and they got it right eventually.

 

[BEaston]

Macca another excuse, Macca at Bulldogs, Hinkley at Port, clubs in same position

Sorry but that right there shows you have no clue whatsoever.

 

[TedDougChris]

This is not entirely the right thread, but port play a style of football which is irresistible to watch. They don't have the talent of Sydney and Hawthorn but they took it right up to hawthorn and I have little doubt had they had the week off like Hawthorn they would have comfortably beaten them.

When this season is over, I suspect coaches will be looking to emulate more parts of the Port style than they will Sydenys or Hawthorns. I really hope Macca is one of those.

Port's Scoring Progression: 2118, 1990, 1749, 1718, 1691, 2051, 2180

Dogs Scoring Progression: 2060, 1542, 1926, 1784

Agree with the style suggestion. I'm hoping that clubs now choose to play attacking, attractive football - rather than trying to emulate Ross Lyon.

Above (sorry, not good at formatting stuff on here) is the progression of season tallies for Points For - since Port's GF loss in 2007 and our last PF loss in 2010. So, first data is for 2008 for Port and 2011 for us.

Port has showed a gradual decline for a number of years (5) before significant improvement in the last two. We've been a bit more erratic, which can in part be due to the erratic output of senior players (this year c.f last year for example), but perhaps due to age profile of the list - I haven't done a comparison of this or any form of analysis. There is also the strength or otherwise of the draw and the respective opponents to be taken into account - which is ridiculously complicated and insert 'Ain't no-one got time for that.jpeg here.

So for those drawing the comparison, Port had 5 years of development (with mixed results) before a serious sustained improvement in scoring (linked to game style) took place.

For those bemoaning our style of play, have a look at our recruiting - do we really think Stringer, Macrae and Bontempelli are negative, unattractive players ?? We're just trying to get the basics right and set, to make sure our guys do the right things at the right time. This is the way to build longer term success.

We may indeed need to tweak a few things, but let's start with the basics first...