Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

[Mutt]

I remember Cameron Ling in early 2012, with Hinkley still not having been hired, saying something along the lines of (and I am paraphrasing) "No disrespect to McCartney or Sanderson, but in my mind Hinkley was the guy I would have hired first".

You also have one of the best administrations in the game, headed by Cook and Balme, making it clear that McCartney was not invited to apply for the Geelong coaching position, but Ken Hinkley was.

These are all people who knew these candidates better than anyone, not people making judgements based on 10 hours of interviews.

Yes, Port had the extra time down the ladder, but that doesn't change the fact that they were still quite a rabble at the end of 2012. If it was seen as a super young list brimming with talent and simply a matter of time before they rose up, some great coaches would have been knocking that door down for that job - but they weren't, Port were begging coaches to interview and they were being turned down (even by the likes of Ratten, Leon Cameron declined a 5 year contract to be Port's head coach to be an assistant coach at GWS).

That turnaround has been nothing short of phenomenal, and not in a hundred shots at it could I have seen McCartney having achieved the same results (in the space of 22 months taking them from rabble to within a kick of a Grand Final). Nor do I reckon Hinkley would have coached us to 30% win/loss and three consecutive bottom 5 finishes - we had a very disjointed list and all that, that's 100% accurate, but so is the fact that some coaches are better than others.

A premiership coach needs to be among the top half dozen coaches in the country - maybe in a few years he'll make me eat my words, but right now nothing is convincing me that McCartney's up there in that group. But as long as there no mass walkouts and as long as he doesn't go stupid at the trade table with desperate reaches to try save himself, I want McCartney there next year.

Where is the evidence for these claims? These are not your opinions, but the opinions of other credible people you are 'quoting' to add weight to your views: perhaps you should post links to the sources.

 

[Nath09]

Also Port's list was in far better shape when Hinkley took over. it's a completely unfair comparison...

 

[TedDougChris]

I remember Cameron Ling in early 2012, with Hinkley still not having been hired, saying something along the lines of (and I am paraphrasing) "No disrespect to McCartney or Sanderson, but in my mind Hinkley was the guy I would have hired first".

You also have one of the best administrations in the game, headed by Cook and Balme, making it clear that McCartney was not invited to apply for the Geelong coaching position, but Ken Hinkley was.

These are all people who knew these candidates better than anyone, not people making judgements based on 10 hours of interviews.

Yes, Port had the extra time down the ladder, but that doesn't change the fact that they were still quite a rabble at the end of 2012. If it was seen as a super young list brimming with talent and simply a matter of time before they rose up, some great coaches would have been knocking that door down for that job - but they weren't, Port were begging coaches to interview and they were being turned down (even by the likes of Ratten, Leon Cameron declined a 5 year contract to be Port's head coach to be an assistant coach at GWS).

That turnaround has been nothing short of phenomenal, and not in a hundred shots at it could I have seen McCartney having achieved the same results (in the space of 22 months taking them from rabble to within a kick of a Grand Final). Nor do I reckon Hinkley would have coached us to 30% win/loss and three consecutive bottom 5 finishes - we had a very disjointed list and all that, that's 100% accurate, but so is the fact that some coaches are better than others.

A premiership coach needs to be among the top half dozen coaches in the country - maybe in a few years he'll make me eat my words, but right now nothing is convincing me that McCartney's up there in that group. But as long as there no mass walkouts and as long as he doesn't go stupid at the trade table with desperate reaches to try save himself, I want McCartney there next year.

I'd be very keen to see these articles/quotes that you are referring to.

I'd also like to point out just how highly regarded Michael Voss, Nathan Buckley, James Hird and Tim Watson were - as well as M Malthouse's glowing endorsement of M Neeld....

 

[Next Waiting]

I remember Cameron Ling in early 2012, with Hinkley still not having been hired, saying something along the lines of (and I am paraphrasing) "No disrespect to McCartney or Sanderson, but in my mind Hinkley was the guy I would have hired first".

You also have one of the best administrations in the game, headed by Cook and Balme, making it clear that McCartney was not invited to apply for the Geelong coaching position, but Ken Hinkley was.

These are all people who knew these candidates better than anyone, not people making judgements based on 10 hours of interviews.

Yes, Port had the extra time down the ladder, but that doesn't change the fact that they were still quite a rabble at the end of 2012. If it was seen as a super young list brimming with talent and simply a matter of time before they rose up, some great coaches would have been knocking that door down for that job - but they weren't, Port were begging coaches to interview and they were being turned down (even by the likes of Ratten, Leon Cameron declined a 5 year contract to be Port's head coach to be an assistant coach at GWS).

That turnaround has been nothing short of phenomenal, and not in a hundred shots at it could I have seen McCartney having achieved the same results (in the space of 22 months taking them from rabble to within a kick of a Grand Final). Nor do I reckon Hinkley would have coached us to 30% win/loss and three consecutive bottom 5 finishes - we had a very disjointed list and all that, that's 100% accurate, but so is the fact that some coaches are better than others.

A premiership coach needs to be among the top half dozen coaches in the country - maybe in a few years he'll make me eat my words, but right now nothing is convincing me that McCartney's up there in that group. But as long as there no mass walkouts and as long as he doesn't go stupid at the trade table with desperate reaches to try save himself, I want McCartney there next year.

Maybe Ling did say that, maybe he didn't, in either case both Geelong and WB didn't pick him up as senior coach for whatever reason when there is no doubt he would have a been a good choice. He looks to be an exceptionally good coach, I don't think many would disagree. Where people disagree is that the list that Macca inherited in his first year at the club and the list that Hinkley did bare little or no resemblance to each other in either quality or demographic. Whether Hinkley would have improved our winning percentage marginally over the same period is a moot point when, in my view, the most important priority was to upgrade the list, overhaul recruiting and establish a sustainable development program (in part through the establishment of our own VFL team) for a sustainable and successful medium to long term outlook. There was no quick fix that would see us in finals or drastically improve our winning percentage without compromising the medium to long term. If we disagree on this point then we fundamentally disagree on all that comes after.
Again, in my view, our list will look remarkably similar in 2016 to the list that Port had at the beginning of 2013 and we'll be in a far better position to compare. We may even be in a better position than Port were because we will have had a stable and effective administration for longer and the players will have had a lot longer to get used to the methodology (I don't think there is any difference at all between how Hinkley aspires to have his team play the game and how Macca does but there is a significant difference currently in the respective lists capacity to implement it/carry out but that gap will narrow over the next 18 months - notwithstanding Port's capacity to keep getting better for a while yet).

 

[Norm De Guerre]

I think in the rush to rewrite history, that fact that Ken Hinkley as well regarded as an assistant coach and as good as he looks today, was quite literally in his own words "the last man standing" on the merry go round of coaching appointments is getting a little lost. After working as an assistant at the Cats and the Suns he was overlooked for the senior coaching job at Geelong, Richmond and Saints. McCartney is obviously not perfect and another year like the last could very well see him axed at the end of the year. But the idea that we would've had a year even remotely like the one Port have just had, if we had just appointed Ken Hinkley is patently absurd.

I'll leave you crazy bastards to keep tilting at those windmills. See you in 25 pages.

 

[Guido]

Where is the evidence for these claims? These are not your opinions, but the opinions of other credible people you are 'quoting' to add weight to your views: perhaps you should post links to the sources.

The Ling one was during a channel 7 telecast, so there's no article. It started with how he couldn't believe Hinkley hadn't been appointed yet, he made it clear he rated McCartney and Sanderson very highly alongside Hinkley, but when pushed for who he would take as a coach of a club he was in control had they all been available, "with no disrespect to.."

I don't care if you believe it, it was a convo in the background with the TV so maybe the exact wording was slightly different, but I know who I took as who he rated the highest of the 3.

The footy department at Geelong not inviting McCartney to apply for the job vacated by Thompson I thought was public knowledge. He was so pissed off that they wouldn't even give him an opportunity to put his case forward that he resigned and signed for Essendon before the new Geelong coach was appointed. However that's not to say they didn't rate him highly for other roles - they wanted him to run a new football academy they were looking at implementing.

Even Caro mentioned it on Offsiders yesterday.

http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/offsiders/NC1428V034S00#playing

22:40 in the video. Those in charge of Geelong did not think McCartney was among the best options as a senior coach, otherwise he would have been right in the mix for the role. Sanderson and Hinkley they interviewed, not McCartney. They may have been wrong on the call (he may prove them wrong), but that they made that call I don't think can be questioned.

But the idea that we would've had a year even remotely like the one Port have just had, if we had just appointed Ken Hinkley is patently absurd.

Understand words champ?

Where has anyone suggested we'd be tracking as well as Port simply by having employed Hinkley?

 

[fargy]

The Ling one was during a channel 7 telecast, so there's no article. It started with how he couldn't believe Hinkley hadn't been appointed yet, he made it clear he rated McCartney and Sanderson very highly alongside Hinkley, but when pushed for who he would take as a coach of a club he was in control had they all been available, "with no disrespect to.."

I don't care if you believe it, it was a convo in the background with the TV so maybe the exact wording was slightly different, but I know who I took as who he rated the highest of the 3.

The footy department at Geelong not inviting McCartney to apply for the job vacated by Thompson I thought was public knowledge. He was so pissed off that they wouldn't even give him an opportunity to put his case forward that he resigned and signed for Essendon before the new Geelong coach was appointed. However that's not to say they didn't rate him highly for other roles - they wanted him to run a new football academy they were looking at implementing.

Even Caro mentioned it on Offsiders yesterday.

http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/offsiders/NC1428V034S00#playing

22:40 in the video. Those in charge of Geelong did not think McCartney was among the best options as a senior coach, otherwise he would have been right in the mix for the role. Sanderson and Hinkley they interviewed, not McCartney. They may have been wrong on the call (he may prove them wrong), but that they made that call I don't think can be questioned.

Understand words champ?

Where has anyone suggested we'd be tracking as well as Port simply by having employed Hinkley?

Actually there is several posts suggesting that exact same thing, but not by you.

 

[_Mike_]

The footy department at Geelong not inviting McCartney to apply for the job vacated by Thompson I thought was public knowledge. He was so pissed off that they wouldn't even give him an opportunity to put his case forward that he resigned and signed for Essendon before the new Geelong coach was appointed. However that's not to say they didn't rate him highly for other roles - they wanted him to run a new football academy they were looking at implementing.

Hmm.. Considering Harley was on the panel who selected McCartney, did Geelong's administration not take notice of their 2 time premiership captain?

Or simply did Harley not get a say.

 

[TedDougChris]

Hmm.. Considering Harley was on the panel who selected McCartney, did Geelong's administration not take notice of their 2 time premiership captain?

Or simply did Harley not get a say.

Should have just left the thread closed.... Not convinced the standard of debate is going to improve......

 

[Guido]

Hmm.. Considering Harley was on the panel who selected McCartney, did Geelong's administration not take notice of their 2 time premiership captain?

Or simply did Harley not get a say.

HTF am I meant to know?

Geelong's footy department didn't think McCartney was in the top few candidates for their senior coach position - that's the only comment I'm really putting forward. What do you want me to do, go back in time and try change their minds to give McCartney an interview?

IF they indeed sought Harley's opinion and IF he said McCartney was the best of the three assistants, then history shows that they ignored him.

Caro is the one that's interviewed the likes of Costa, Cook and Balme, not me, not you. She's the one saying that the key personnel in Geelong have always seen Hinkley as the most likely assistant to be a top level AFL coach - email and ask her whether they took Harley's views into account.

And I know how much Harley rates McCartney, but unless both options were available and could be chosen from, Harley backing McCartney at our interview process really doesn't answer how he thinks he compares to Hinkley.

I mean, if Stevie J was on that panel, in a McCartney V Leon Cameron decision, he probably would have selected McCartney as well (if Hinkley wasn't an option).

But reading below, I don't think there's much doubt in who he thought was the most likely of the assistants to be an AFL premiership coach.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...ership-contender/story-fnp04d70-1227055607821

 

[_Mike_]

HTF am I meant to know?

Geelong's footy department didn't think McCartney was in the top few candidates for their senior coach position - that's the only comment I'm really putting forward. What do you want me to do, go back in time and try change their minds to give McCartney an interview?

You've stated some depth on the subject which implies that you have some level of detail around the selection process at Geelong, so would it not be fair to ask the question? In any case, a hypothetical but if you're going to post the information you have, be prepared to be quizzed about the content

 

[_Mike_]

Should have just left the thread closed.... Not convinced the standard of debate is going to improve......

probably not, but its not going to digress to the level of insults that we've been letting through the keeper as of late.

 

[TedDougChris]

probably not, but its not going to digress to the level of insults that we've been letting through the keeper as of late.

Fair enough, best of luck with it...

 

[Proffessor]

I remember Cameron Ling in early 2012, with Hinkley still not having been hired, saying something along the lines of (and I am paraphrasing) "No disrespect to McCartney or Sanderson, but in my mind Hinkley was the guy I would have hired first".

You also have one of the best administrations in the game, headed by Cook and Balme, making it clear that McCartney was not invited to apply for the Geelong coaching position, but Ken Hinkley was.

These are all people who knew these candidates better than anyone, not people making judgements based on 10 hours of interviews.

Yes, Port had the extra time down the ladder, but that doesn't change the fact that they were still quite a rabble at the end of 2012. If it was seen as a super young list brimming with talent and simply a matter of time before they rose up, some great coaches would have been knocking that door down for that job - but they weren't, Port were begging coaches to interview and they were being turned down (even by the likes of Ratten, Leon Cameron declined a 5 year contract to be Port's head coach to be an assistant coach at GWS).

That turnaround has been nothing short of phenomenal, and not in a hundred shots at it could I have seen McCartney having achieved the same results (in the space of 22 months taking them from rabble to within a kick of a Grand Final). Nor do I reckon Hinkley would have coached us to 30% win/loss and three consecutive bottom 5 finishes - we had a very disjointed list and all that, that's 100% accurate, but so is the fact that some coaches are better than others.

A premiership coach needs to be among the top half dozen coaches in the country - maybe in a few years he'll make me eat my words, but right now nothing is convincing me that McCartney's up there in that group. But as long as there no mass walkouts and as long as he doesn't go stupid at the trade table with desperate reaches to try save himself, I want McCartney there next year.

Excellent Post. However, I have a problem with the final sentence.

I seriously struggle to understand what people see in McCartney and why they feel that he should remain in the post. The fact that after three years as a senior coach with the Bulldogs, the best evidence for his coaching prowess that his supporters can point to is still the references from his mates at Geelong.

I think the lack of positive evidence produced during his time at the Bulldogs, speaks volumes about how bad his performance has been.

 

[dergert]

To change direction of this stalemate argument does anyone have any info on Shannon Grant's replacement? I would think an actual key position player would be suitable to teach our youngsters, I know we have Mooney and Scarlett but it's only part time.

 

[dergert]

Should see what peter dean is doing these days lololololol

 

[fred cook]

Should see what peter dean is doing these days lololololol

He was one of the below until BM brought all his cronies to the club

WESTERN BULLDOGS DEVELOPMENT COACHES


JOEL COREY

Triple premiership player Joel Corey joined the Western Bulldogs in the role of Development Coach in November 2013.

Corey joined the Club after an illustrious playing career where he was an influential member of Geelong’s recent on-field success across 276 games at the top level.

Selected at pick eight in the 1999 AFL draft, Corey was awarded all-Australian honours on two occasions as well as two best and fairest awards in 14 seasons.



CAMERON MOONEY

A premiership player at both North Melbourne and Geelong, Cameron Mooney joined the Western Bulldogs as a part-time specialist at the start of the 2013 pre-season.



Twice Geelong’s leading goalkicker in premiership years (2007, 2009) and an All Australian in 2007, Mooney brings 221 games of AFL experience to the Bulldogs’ coaching ranks.



Working with the Bulldogs emerging forward group, Mooney will spend two days per week at the Club over the course of the pre-season and season proper.




MATTHEW SCARLETT

After a playing career spanning 14 years, Matthew Scarlett joined the Western Bulldogs in a part-time specialist coaching in late 2012.

A triple-premiership player, Scarlett was named an All-Australian on six occasions in his 284-game career. The Geelong premiership full-back was also named Club best and fairest on one occasion.

Scarlett will spend two days a week over the course of the pre-season and season proper mentoring and working with the Bulldogs’ defenders.

 

[Doggies1972]

It's a long road to success.
The vfl success, the list of coaching staff, the ups and downs of dropping/ delisting stallwartz, the opposition teams, and money spent to collect and create them we are going ok into the future.
42 years I've been a doggie, but it's an elite comp where money talks, and it's a ten year plan to have a premiership.
Maccas no magician. If we all threw the cllub money it would be easier for him, and the geelong/bomber legends who have really given their retirements to our club. They could have all done $$$$ better elsewhere, but have followed Macca and head staff, Gordon and all with a plan. It's no instant, and no guarantee, but I see the wheels in motion to compete with the big boys, so kudos to them all!!
But FFS. .....give them a chance. We tried to buy a final with eade, hall and Aka, and fell short. I didn't agree when eade got the ass, but I see where we are hopefully headed. Pain in the short term (AGAIN).... BUT with the vfl results, the young talent and seniors in the afl. ....
We LOOK LIKE WE HAVE A GOOD ...and financially sustainable future.....enabling us to hopefully hang onto the the talent we have lost in the past.
We won't lose our youth to million dollar subsidised clubs like we have recently...and if we do, our depth is developing to where we can lose a few without the gouge as its been in the past.
42 years I've been waiting, it will be a few more....but I can see a a plan to finally get there.
The VFL was an insight. .... (here's hoping)
Go the dogs!!

 

[Dry Rot]

We LOOK LIKE WE HAVE A financially sustainable future

Really?

 

[ThirdLegUp]

It's a long road to success.
The vfl success, the list of coaching staff, the ups and downs of dropping/ delisting stallwartz, the opposition teams, and money spent to collect and create them we are going ok into the future.
42 years I've been a doggie, but it's an elite comp where money talks, and it's a ten year plan to have a premiership.
Maccas no magician. If we all threw the cllub money it would be easier for him, and the geelong/bomber legends who have really given their retirements to our club. They could have all done $$$$ better elsewhere, but have followed Macca and head staff, Gordon and all with a plan. It's no instant, and no guarantee, but I see the wheels in motion to compete with the big boys, so kudos to them all!!
But FFS. .....give them a chance. We tried to buy a final with eade, hall and Aka, and fell short. I didn't agree when eade got the ass, but I see where we are hopefully headed. Pain in the short term (AGAIN).... BUT with the vfl results, the young talent and seniors in the afl. ....
We LOOK LIKE WE HAVE A GOOD ...and financially sustainable future.....enabling us to hopefully hang onto the the talent we have lost in the past.
We won't lose our youth to million dollar subsidised clubs like we have recently...and if we do, our depth is developing to where we can lose a few without the gouge as its been in the past.
42 years I've been waiting, it will be a few more....but I can see a a plan to finally get there.
The VFL was an insight. .... (here's hoping)
Go the dogs!!

puff puff give man, you're hogging it

 

[Guido]

You've stated some depth on the subject which implies that you have some level of detail around the selection process at Geelong, so would it not be fair to ask the question? In any case, a hypothetical but if you're going to post the information you have, be prepared to be quizzed about the content

OK, then the last question re: Harley's opinion now makes sense then - apologies for snapping, I was bamboozled at why you would think I would know.

I have no inside info, never have known or pretended to know anyone from Geelong footy club, had no intention of making it look that way.

I seriously thought that it was all on public record that McCartney wasn't considered whereas Ken Hinkley/Chris Scott went down to the wire for the position.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...cats-for-bombers/story-e6frg7mf-1225937599497

"It was in the club's plans for Brendan to become a development coach who would solely focus on developing our younger players,” Geelong's football manager Neil Balme said today.

“However he has now informed us he is looking to pursue a senior match-day role instead.

“On this basis we have reluctantly accepted Brendan's decision to resign.”

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/another-defector-from-the-cat-empire-20101012-16hwk.html

"It was a testy confrontation early yesterday when McCartney met Geelong club chiefs Brian Cook and Neil Balme. McCartney was reminded that he had committed to the club for the long term, although such agreements seem to count for little in football these days."


http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/quiet-coach-with-a-bulldogs-tenacity-20111209-1onpz.html

"The Geelong hierarchy, where McCartney spent 12 successful years from 1999 after a brief introduction to the AFL under Jeff Gieschen at Richmond, certainly did not see the highly rated football teacher as a senior coach but rather a long-term prospect as head of the football academy he had established at the Cats."

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...gs-tenacity-20111209-1onpz.html#ixzz3E3l2ZQbR

 

[fronkalicious]

OK, then the last question re: Harley's opinion now makes sense then - apologies for snapping, I was bamboozled at why you would think I would know.

I have no inside info, never have known or pretended to know anyone from Geelong footy club, had no intention of making it look that way.

I seriously thought that it was all on public record that McCartney wasn't considered whereas Ken Hinkley/Chris Scott went down to the wire for the position.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...cats-for-bombers/story-e6frg7mf-1225937599497

"It was in the club's plans for Brendan to become a development coach who would solely focus on developing our younger players,” Geelong's football manager Neil Balme said today.

“However he has now informed us he is looking to pursue a senior match-day role instead.

“On this basis we have reluctantly accepted Brendan's decision to resign.”

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/another-defector-from-the-cat-empire-20101012-16hwk.html

"It was a testy confrontation early yesterday when McCartney met Geelong club chiefs Brian Cook and Neil Balme. McCartney was reminded that he had committed to the club for the long term, although such agreements seem to count for little in football these days."


http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/quiet-coach-with-a-bulldogs-tenacity-20111209-1onpz.html

"The Geelong hierarchy, where McCartney spent 12 successful years from 1999 after a brief introduction to the AFL under Jeff Gieschen at Richmond, certainly did not see the highly rated football teacher as a senior coach but rather a long-term prospect as head of the football academy he had established at the Cats."

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...gs-tenacity-20111209-1onpz.html#ixzz3E3l2ZQbR

Hmmmm, Geelong might have been right. Again. Fancy that.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Didn't know he applied for any jobs from Geelong. Wasn't he at Essendon for a year before coming here?

So apparently Geelong wanted him to stay forever, in the same role. I wonder how that expectation would go down with most of us in our working lives.

 

[Mutt]

Hmmmm, Geelong might have been right. Again. Fancy that.

Or Geelong got it wrong again - after all - they didn't appoint the Messiah Hinkley. Their current coach is looking more like Steven Bradbury every day.

 

[fronkalicious]

Or Geelong got it wrong again - after all - they didn't appoint the Messiah Hinkley. Their current coach is looking more like Steven Bradbury every day.

Chris Scott has been amazing for the catters mutt. Id take him in a heartbeat.

Can't argue that hinkleys the hot man right now, no question.

I love mccatneys philosophy on footy, his talent Id criteria and his development skills. Still far from convinced on his tactical stuff. Rooting for the guy though.