Bring back the AFL Reserves Competition

[LennyStarkiller]

If the reserves comp happened what would people think if the TAC Cup comp was scratched or some TAC Cup teams were partially merged with the VFL which would be void of AFL players and AFL reserves teams? So basically the TAC Cup players would be playing in the 2's but if they are good enough, they could be playing in the seniors against the bigger bodies and more experienced players to potentially develop them a bit quicker.

 

[The Speaker]

The VFA - rebranded as the VFL - but was its own entity right up until it became an AFL subsidary in 2011,

The VFA has been at the whim of the VFL since well before 2011, Wook. You know that.

 

[The_Wookie]

The VFA has been at the whim of the VFL since well before 2011, Wook. You know that.

In so far as its corporate body is concerned it was its own entity and responsible for its own decisions. It affiliated with the then VSFL in 1993. Im well aware of the history.

 

[The Speaker]

In so far as its corporate body is concerned it was its own entity and responsible for its own decisions. It affiliated with the then VSFL in 1993. Im well aware of the history.

What exactly do you stand to gain by denying that the VFL has been trying to kill off the VFA, or at the very least annex it, since before 2011?

 

[The_Wookie]

What exactly do you stand to gain by denying that the VFL has been trying to kill off the VFA, or at the very least annex it, since before 2011?

I gain nothing, and I deny nothing. The FACT is that until the AFL bought the assets and property of the VFL in 2011 they were separate organisations.

 

[The Speaker]

I gain nothing, and I deny nothing. The FACT is that until the AFL bought the assets and property of the VFL in 2011 they were separate organisations.

Do you or do you not believe that the VFL was essentially in control of the VFA before 2011?

 

[telsor]

Do you or do you not believe that the VFL was essentially in control of the VFA before 2011?

Depends how you define control.

Does the AFL control the WAFL? They have influence after all.


Fact is, the VFL/AFL takeover of the the VFA was a gradual process, just like the VFL/AFL's takeover of football generally.

 

[Navy2005]

With the problems mounting in the NEAFL with clubs dropping out left, right and centre because of the costs and travel involved and more and more players dropping out of the competition and returning to lower competitions as they can't cope with the demands of constant interstate travel as part time footballers. It only goes to highlight the point that the current model is best rectified by allowing each State and Territory to have it own premier league and the AFL reserves be reintroduced. This benefits everyone more player are given the opportunity to play at top level in their State. AFL clubs are given the chance to compete against one another expose their player to other emerging AFL prospects. And Club can financial exist in viable State league set ups. Seems to make sense.

 

[footyfan1978]

With the problems mounting in the NEAFL with clubs dropping out left, right and centre because of the costs and travel involved and more and more players dropping out of the competition and returning to lower competitions as they can't cope with the demands of constant interstate travel as part time footballers.

Could you elaborate how many and which clubs.
Would love to get a bit more idea what is happening in North Eastern leagues. I did read some ACT team was going a few months back but did not realize there are many more ??

 

[Our Game]

Depends how you define control.

Does the AFL control the WAFL? They have influence after all.


Fact is, the VFL/AFL takeover of the the VFA was a gradual process, just like the VFL/AFL's takeover of football generally.

From the time Ian Collins was running the VFA it was in effect in the VFL/AFL camp and most big decisions were made at the behest of the VFL/AFL until 2011 when the AFL did gain full control and changed the name of the supposed body running football in Victoria to AFL Victoria(sic) One would think Australian Football Victoria would have been more appopriate and take the wind out of soccers sails in calling their imported pommie game Australian Football..

 

[The_Wookie]

From the time Ian Collins was running the VFA it was in effect in the VFL/AFL camp and most big decisions were made at the behest of the VFL/AFL until 2011 when the AFL did gain full control and changed the name of the supposed body running football in Victoria to AFL Victoria(sic) One would think Australian Football Victoria would have been more appopriate and take the wind out of soccers sails in calling their imported pommie game Australian Football..

Ian Collins never ran the VFA as far as Im aware. Secretary of Carlton from 1981 to 1993, General Manager of the AFL until 1999 and Docklands Stadium manager from 1999, and Carlton president from 2002-2006.

The change of the state governing body to AFL Victoria - it was Football Victoria before that for some time - was about the brand. The money keeping these competitions afloat wasnt coming from generic Australian Football, it was well and truly coming from the AFL, and in 2011 the branding was brought into line with every other state body the AFL controlled. The perception being you can market the term 'AFL" - as in PlayAFL, AFL Auskick etc etc - which is less clunky than using Australian Football etc.

One would also think that Australian Football would be secure enough within itself after 160 years to not have to worry about Australian football.

 

[Navy2005]

Could you elaborate how many and which clubs.
Would love to get a bit more idea what is happening in North Eastern leagues. I did read some ACT team was going a few months back but did not realize there are many more ??

Club that are dropping out of the competition at a rapid rate from the ACT Belconnen, Queanbeyan are not continuing in the NEAFL next season and from NSW Sydney Hills Eagles are pulling out of the competition.

This is on top of four clubs returning to the QAFL that were originally involved in the NEAFL like Morningside, Mt Gravatt, Labrador, Broadbeach.

And many players are going back to lower league as they can't commit to the travel involved in the competition. The NEAFL is in a very bad state atm and the competition is proving utterly unviable.

 

[footyfan1978]

Club that are dropping out of the competition at a rapid rate from the ACT Belconnen, Queanbeyan are not continuing in the NEAFL next season and from NSW Sydney Hills Eagles are pulling out of the competition.

This is on top of four clubs returning to the QAFL that were originally involved in the NEAFL like Morningside, Mt Gravatt, Labrador, Broadbeach.

And many players are going back to lower league as they can't commit to the travel involved in the competition. The NEAFL is in a very bad state atm and the competition is proving utterly unviable.

Thanks for the update mate.
Gee, that is pretty bad state of affairs.
Really think the AFL have to work out what is best for leagues just below the elite level.
The NEAFL and VFL both look like they need sorting out what is best for clubs and states for long term. Can't be losing that may clubs and still think it going well.

 

[madmug]

Thanks for the update mate.
Gee, that is pretty bad state of affairs.
Really think the AFL have to work out what is best for leagues just below the elite level.
The NEAFL and VFL both look like they need sorting out what is best for clubs and states for long term. Can't be losing that may clubs and still think it going well.

Having AFL reserves wont unduly affect the WAFL & SANFL one would think. It will decimate the NEAFL & the VFL as we know them. The QAFL would be ok as would the ACTAFL. I dont know now it would affect he Sydney comp. But really, the AFL couldnt care less about the state leagues anyway.

 

[Our Game]

Ian Collins never ran the VFA as far as Im aware. Secretary of Carlton from 1981 to 1993, General Manager of the AFL until 1999 and Docklands Stadium manager from 1999, and Carlton president from 2002-2006.

The change of the state governing body to AFL Victoria - it was Football Victoria before that for some time - was about the brand. The money keeping these competitions afloat wasnt coming from generic Australian Football, it was well and truly coming from the AFL, and in 2011 the branding was brought into line with every other state body the AFL controlled. The perception being you can market the term 'AFL" - as in PlayAFL, AFL Auskick etc etc - which is less clunky than using Australian Football etc.

One would also think that Australian Football would be secure enough within itself after 160 years to not have to worry about Australian football.

Collins was appointed to the VFA Board in the early 1990 in an Honorary Capacity to try and fix the VFA finances and provide a blueprint for the comps future while he was also working at the AFL
A lot of people blame him for the name change to the VFL
Collins had a VFA history being coach of Port Melbporne 1972 - 3 and he was is an accountant by profession.
About the AFL BS, ONLY the players playing for the AFL Clubs actually play AFL Football all the other thousands of leagues around the nation play "Australian Football"
Its just typical American crap marketing and just shows how weak most Australian organizations are about protecting our unique heritage

 

[footyfan1978]

Having AFL reserves wont unduly affect the WAFL & SANFL one would think. It will decimate the NEAFL & the VFL as we know them.

I'm not sure 100% what the full answer is. What I do know is the VFL has been a dogs breakfast for well over a decade so there is nothing to lose there as the VFA has essentially been killed off in last two decades with AFL football played all weekend. There really is only Port Melbourne that has survived of old VFA and still keeping head above water.

As for NEAFL, if as reported so many clubs cannot go on as it is, well then it is not working either. You cannot decimate something already broken. If players on AFL list did not play in state leagues then any state league would not be second tier level in anycase. It would then be third. One size does not fit all for solutions here. Very tricky. I cannot speak for NSW and Queensland football states but in Victoria I think the push should be on to make the VFL be the 10 Vic based reserves teams plus Port Melbourne, Williamstown, Sandringham and North Ballarat added on. Quite a lot of those games involving Vic based reserve teams should be curtain raisers to AFL games in Victoria. The fixturing should be fixed up more aligned to assist Vic based AFL clubs have their VFL teams play same other Vic based clubs so more curtain raisers can happen. It will then make it more relevant. I don't think an Australian wide AFL reserves comp is the way to go but in Victoria I think they should be trying to get the Vic based clubs have the next best thing.

What happens in NEAFL is really hard to say. We need the 4 AFL clubs up there in NSW and Queensland have the listed players not in senior team still have some decent footy league to play in but how that can be achieved is a serious challenge right now it seems.

 

[Albert Ross]

Club that are dropping out of the competition at a rapid rate from the ACT Belconnen, Queanbeyan are not continuing in the NEAFL next season and from NSW Sydney Hills Eagles are pulling out of the competition.

This is on top of four clubs returning to the QAFL that were originally involved in the NEAFL like Morningside, Mt Gravatt, Labrador, Broadbeach.

And many players are going back to lower league as they can't commit to the travel involved in the competition. The NEAFL is in a very bad state atm and the competition is proving utterly unviable.

Thanks for the update mate.
Gee, that is pretty bad state of affairs.
Really think the AFL have to work out what is best for leagues just below the elite level.
The NEAFL and VFL both look like they need sorting out what is best for clubs and states for long term. Can't be losing that may clubs and still think it going well.

Depending on your background, there is another interpretation for this. These teams have not "pulled out" as much as been "kicked out".

There was a NEAFL North and South. The 4 AFL teams were obviously expected to be dominant, and the community clubs struggle.

Last year they went to one single NEAFL with the 4 AFL clubs, 4 from QLD and 4 from NSW/ACT.

The 4 QLD teams were cast as regional teams and the QAFL teams were made into feeder teams. Players from Broadbeach etc were fed into the surviving QLD teams to make them stronger and more likely to compete with the AFL teams.

With the QLD teams competitive and the NSW/ACT not competitive, the next step is to 'rationalise' them. The suggestion is one ACT regional and one Sydney team.

It is ugly what has happened. But basically the AFL are attempting to concentrate the northern talent into 4 QLD and 2-3 NSW/ACT regional teams to give the 4 AFL teams good competition and enhance draft prospects by having a good standard comp.

They haven't created clubs, or forced mergers or anything obvious. But they have said that Labrador and Broadbeach have to go back to the QAFL and give their players to Southport. The NEAFL clubs can not have reserves or under-18s so stop being community clubs and rely on other clubs in their region. Those other clubs are deduced to being feeder clubs for what was once a local rival.

Slowly and 'secretly' the AFL are creating a pyramid structure to suit their own purposes.

 

[Gigantor]

Depending on your background, there is another interpretation for this. These teams have not "pulled out" as much as been "kicked out".

There was a NEAFL North and South. The 4 AFL teams were obviously expected to be dominant, and the community clubs struggle.

Last year they went to one single NEAFL with the 4 AFL clubs, 4 from QLD and 4 from NSW/ACT.

The 4 QLD teams were cast as regional teams and the QAFL teams were made into feeder teams. Players from Broadbeach etc were fed into the surviving QLD teams to make them stronger and more likely to compete with the AFL teams.

With the QLD teams competitive and the NSW/ACT not competitive, the next step is to 'rationalise' them. The suggestion is one ACT regional and one Sydney team.

It is ugly what has happened. But basically the AFL are attempting to concentrate the northern talent into 4 QLD and 2-3 NSW/ACT regional teams to give the 4 AFL teams good competition and enhance draft prospects by having a good standard comp.

They haven't created clubs, or forced mergers or anything obvious. But they have said that Labrador and Broadbeach have to go back to the QAFL and give their players to Southport. The NEAFL clubs can not have reserves or under-18s so stop being community clubs and rely on other clubs in their region. Those other clubs are deduced to being feeder clubs for what was once a local rival.

Slowly and 'secretly' the AFL are creating a pyramid structure to suit their own purposes.

I think that sums it up quite well. Ignoring for the moment that the Suns reserves were quite weak this season, there is some logic to having 4 to 6 non-AFL clubs up against the four AFL clubs to get the standard of the competition to somewhere close to the VFL/SANFL/WAFL (which is the end game).

I think Ainslie and Eastlake have the resources to keep up. Add NT, two Queensland clubs, and that basically leaves one club from Sydney.

 

[telsor]

It is ugly what has happened. But basically the AFL are attempting to concentrate the northern talent into 4 QLD and 2-3 NSW/ACT regional teams to give the 4 AFL teams good competition and enhance draft prospects by having a good standard comp.

I'm not sure creating a reasonably balanced comp of a good standard is all that bad an idea.

Yeah, it sucks for teams that don't make the grade, and I'd be upset if it was a long term/traditional comp, but the NEAFL is a relatively new thing, created in no small part to give the Sydney/Brisbane reserves somewhere to play (and later GC/GWS) and these sorts of teething problems shouldn't be unexpected.

 

[Albert Ross]

I'm not sure creating a reasonably balanced comp of a good standard is all that bad an idea.

It isn't, but the methodology is.

Yeah, it sucks for teams that don't make the grade, and I'd be upset if it was a long term/traditional comp, but the NEAFL is a relatively new thing, created in no small part to give the Sydney/Brisbane reserves somewhere to play (and later GC/GWS) and these sorts of teething problems shouldn't be unexpected.

You are looking at it from a NEAFL perspective; the QAFL was established in 1903.

There was a Southport v Broadbeach rivalry on the Gold Coast. Both teams get invited into the NEAFL North Division. Then Southport get told they are to continue in the NEAFL but must axe their reserves and junior teams. Broadbeach are told they can not continue and must return to the QAFL but must make their players available to Southport. Any player who does not gain selection in the Southport seniors will play at Broadbeach - effectively making Broadbeach the a reserves team of their former rival.

All this happened between 2010-13 and the clubs were the patsies in an AFL plan.

That is what is happening to the ACT/NSW clubs now. The post I replied to implied that the ACT teams didn't like the NEAFL and were walking away as a sign of the league struggling. In most cases the clubs are being kicked-out as the AFL bulldoze through their preferred model in a few pre-planned steps. The clubs are understandably upset that they have been treated so high-handedly.

 

[Navy2005]

It isn't, but the methodology is.



You are looking at it from a NEAFL perspective; the QAFL was established in 1903.

There was a Southport v Broadbeach rivalry on the Gold Coast. Both teams get invited into the NEAFL North Division. Then Southport get told they are to continue in the NEAFL but must axe their reserves and junior teams. Broadbeach are told they can not continue and must return to the QAFL but must make their players available to Southport. Any player who does not gain selection in the Southport seniors will play at Broadbeach - effectively making Broadbeach the a reserves team of their former rival.

All this happened between 2010-13 and the clubs were the patsies in an AFL plan.

That is what is happening to the ACT/NSW clubs now. The post I replied to implied that the ACT teams didn't like the NEAFL and were walking away as a sign of the league struggling. In most cases the clubs are being kicked-out as the AFL bulldoze through their preferred model in a few pre-planned steps. The clubs are understandably upset that they have been treated so high-handedly.

Well said fact is the NEAFL is a competition that is just there for the AFL clubs benefit. It is a competition that does nothing t promote the game in a developing football State as it prevents more players from experience top level footy.

Again this could all be easily rectify if we a had a national AFL reserves competition and every State/Territory had their own premier competition that local players are encouraged to progress through.

 

[Perry Pie]

I would rather see a reserves competition and then leave subordinate State leagues left to do their own thing. What is happening now is the AFL are trying to get reserve competition on the cheap.
Have a reserve comp with travel supported by the AFL. Split in 2 to keep the cost as low as practical, Victoria league (they get no travel subsidy) and National Leage (Non- Victorian AFL clubs).
The 8 non - vic teams play each other twice + the home state rival an extra home and away = 16 game season (6 interstate games each club). AFL pays for the travel for the 48 times interstate travel is needed. Played at home grounds or as curtain raisers? Top 4 to finals (home against Vic finalists). Vic clubs just do H & A in state, 18 game season, top 4 make finals but play week 1 in the finals interstate. I am not sure what that would cost the AFL, maybe $1million a season in travel? Start the reserves H & A season a couple of weeks later than the AFL season and end it a a week or two early with the finals running a week or two before the AFL.
Then the AFL can leave the state leagues and the clubs alone to find their own levels and support.

 

[The_Wookie]

Then the AFL can leave the state leagues and the clubs alone to find their own levels and support.

Except the AFL cant. It is the complete owner and administrator of 5 of 7 state competitions.

 

[Perry Pie]

Except the AFL cant. It is the complete owner and administrator of 5 of 7 state competitions.

Time to relieve itself of that burden - which it is not doing so well at.
I am all for supporting local and state footy. What has not worked is the hybrid model where players drop from one team and league into another. It stuffs the lower league competition and does not really work for the AFL clubs either. A real reserve competition even with flaws will at least leave the non-AFL clubs to have their own competition without interference from "above".

 

[Dan Cooper]

In a perfect world the AFL competition would have a reserves competition underneath it, with each team represented by their own 'feeder' team that shared their name. But look no further than the AFL draw to realise the AFL competition is not part of a perfect world and never will be.