Brisbane 01-03 v Geelong 07-11 v Hawthorn 08-14.
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The Lions won 2 of their flags against a Collingwood team made up of complete plodders (they only won 13 games in 2002 FFS)
The only GF against the natural rival to that era was where they got rolled by Port in 2004
...and thats not even delving into your merger concessions and salary cap space which once removed has seen you return to irrelevence
The Lions never finished minor premier (Hawthorn managed the feat twice) and went 6/8 through the middle rounds of 2003
Lets compare GF losses
Hawthorn lost out on the fourpeat (or at least delayed it till 2016) due to two arsey Nick Maleski goals in Q1 and Q4 in what was later regarded as one of the GOAT GF's. By contrast the Lions wer3 humiliated in their one and only crack at the fourplay by Port Adelaide when they decided to stop chocking (by no less than 7 goals)
Honestly we dont even need to include 2008 (4 》3 ) and this is no contest
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Nothing to do with us but like I said Brisbane and Geelong teams were better.
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Brisbane had to travel and beat sides at their home grounds to win. Geelong beat two better sides in StKilda and Collingwood to win two of their GFS.
Gone Critical
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Brisbane were a great side but did have a lot of things go their way and didn't have any great teams to defeat. They never dominated a season like the Hawks or Cats have. They didnt play as strong and overwhelming football as the other 2 who just decimated the competition.
Hawks are clear out on front. They have 4 flags in the same era and other high level performance in seasons 2008-15. Its a much more sustained run. Even just the time 2013-15 is better football than Brisbane ever produced and equal to Geelongs best. A threepeat has them clearly above Geelong.
This current Hawks side have left the building Geelong and Brisbane live in and ventured into the skyscraper housing Hawks 83-91, Melb 55-64 and Collingwood 27-30. Win next year and you can build them a palace all for themselves.
Hawks are clear out on front. They have 4 flags in the same era and other high level performance in seasons 2008-15. Its a much more sustained run. Even just the time 2013-15 is better football than Brisbane ever produced and equal to Geelongs best. A threepeat has them clearly above Geelong.
This current Hawks side have left the building Geelong and Brisbane live in and ventured into the skyscraper housing Hawks 83-91, Melb 55-64 and Collingwood 27-30. Win next year and you can build them a palace all for themselves.
Still the same question has to be asked why not wait until Hawthorn is finished.
Brisbane had more money in the cap - The Hawks had to beat Sydney who had a million$ more in their cap.
Saints who have won one flag and the Colliwobbles were better sides? give me a spell.
Gone Critical
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- #363
Because you dont have to. Hawks already better than other 2. Waiting only tells us how much better.
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I'd say that Essendon was a pretty good side based off the year before. Collingwood were weaker teams and we were possibly lucky to not play Port in the GF earlier.
Brisbane did have the extra retention allowance, but with all the travel and issues being shown with retention now it was may be fair enough to need it.
Either way Hawthorn have at least equaled Brisbane and have the chance to go way way ahead next year. Geelong has been left behind these two teams
This is probably a fair post...
Player for player, line for line the Lions were far superior to the '08, '11-15 Hawks however Clarkson is so far ahead of Matthews when it comes to coaching (and for that matter Hawthorn list management 》》》》 Brisbane list management) it makes up for the difference in playing stocks
The Hawks have been able to rebuild their list mid stream like no other since the Hawks of the 70s and 80s
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Essendon were a good side the year before but dont go down as a great one. Hawks and Cats played through each others era.
All 3 are all time great sides but I rank Brisbane as the least of the 3. They were sensational though.
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The lions did not use the salary cap concessions to buy any star players. It was used to retain the current playing list and keep the southern state vultures away. It is not dissimilar to the third party deals afforded to many clubs around the league to keep their players happy.
The lions had to travel every second week and beat two big Victorian clubs at the home of football for their threepeat whereas the Hawks beat 3 interstate sides at the MCG and lets not underestimate the massive impact on the competition the expansion clubs have had with the dilution of the talent pool. Even Newbold said the hawks had benifitted from free agency because it allowed clubs at the top to keep their premiership window open longer. It was great work and timing by the hawks to grab McEvoy, Lake, Frawley etc
Anyway, the Lions would have had four flags in a row if they weren't forced to play their prelim at the MCG
Pound for pound I reckon the Lions and Cats are pretty close and the hawks thereafter
But the hawks of the 80's would have dominated the lot - they were brutal
The lions had to travel every second week and beat two big Victorian clubs at the home of football for their threepeat whereas the Hawks beat 3 interstate sides at the MCG and lets not underestimate the massive impact on the competition the expansion clubs have had with the dilution of the talent pool. Even Newbold said the hawks had benifitted from free agency because it allowed clubs at the top to keep their premiership window open longer. It was great work and timing by the hawks to grab McEvoy, Lake, Frawley etc
Anyway, the Lions would have had four flags in a row if they weren't forced to play their prelim at the MCG
Pound for pound I reckon the Lions and Cats are pretty close and the hawks thereafter
But the hawks of the 80's would have dominated the lot - they were brutal
Agree with this post.
And it's not just the rebuilding, but Clarko's ability to keep innovating his game plan effectively every year. I hate the little bastard for what he did to Ian Aitken, but you've gotta give credit where it's due.
The lions did not use the salary cap concessions to buy any star players. It was used to retain the current playing list and keep the southern state vultures away. It is not dissimilar to the third party deals afforded to many clubs around the league to keep their players happy.
The lions had to travel every second week and beat two big Victorian clubs at the home of football for their threepeat whereas the Hawks beat 3 interstate sides at the MCG and lets not underestimate the massive impact on the competition the expansion clubs have had with the dilution of the talent pool. Even Newbold said the hawks had benifitted from free agency because it allowed clubs at the top to keep their premiership window open longer. It was great work and timing by the hawks to grab McEvoy, Lake, Frawley etc
Anyway, the Lions would have had four flags in a row if they weren't forced to play their prelim at the MCG
Pound for pound I reckon the Lions and Cats are pretty close and the hawks thereafter
But the hawks of the 80's would have dominated the lot - they were brutal
That said dont forget that the Hawks 2008 side (which is included in this poll) rolled a Geelong side that was infinantly superior to all comers the Lions (and for that matter the Cats) faced in their GFs (a team that was 23/1 with a 160%)
With respect to talent drain, the Lions capitalized on the introduction of the 16 team competition (Fremantle in 1995), the introduction of Port Adelaide (1997) and the generous merger concessions (and inflated playing roster, salary cap and draft zoning etc) that was provided to them during the 1997-2003 period.
The Lions had an amazing 22, their 22 in both the 2001 and 2002 Grand Finals must go down as one of the greatest teams, line for line in the history of the sport...far superior to Hawthorn 2008, 2013, 2014 or 2015...
That said I would argue (perhaps with bias) that the Hawthorn club achievement was superior and here is why...
Point 1 - 4 flags from 5 GF's to 3 flags from 4 GF's: the extra flag is obvious but the manner in which they won is significant. All 4 flags were one with different gamestyles...from the cluster to the swarm, from Buddy / Roughead reliance to the four pronged forward line. Hawthorn rebuilt their forward line (Franklin / Roughead / Williams to Roughead / Gunston / Breust / Rioli), ruck division (Campbell / Renoulf to Hale / McEvoy through Ceglar, Skipper and Bailey) and backline (Croad / Gilham to Lake / Stratton / Gibson / Frawley with the Schoenmakers debacle in 2012). In fact they only area on the ground the Hawks didnt significantly rebuild mid flight was the midfield and HB + HF'ers...replacing Crawford, Osborne, Bateman and adding Borgoyne, Shiels, Smith, Hill, Dureya, Hartung, Simpkin and Langford to the Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Birchall rock.
Point 2 - 34 players used in the threepeat v 28 players: if you look at both teams starting 22 the Hawks have used 6 extra players in their run (13 more players if you include 2008). Of the 34 players Hawthorn has 13 AA players compared to the Lions 8 AA players...the Lions royalty is probably better (Voss, Black, Black, Lappin, Leppitsch, Lynch, Brown, Hart vs. Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Borgoyne, Roughead, Franklin, Rioli, Lake) but the Hawks bat deeper (5 extra AA players)
Point 3 - demonstrated performance and GF results: Since making the finals for the first time in each respective eras (either 1995 for Brisbane or 2007 for Hawthorn) the Lions went 132-3-82 for home and away and 16-7 in finals (1995-04). By comparison Hawthorn have gone 138-1-56 for home and away games and 16-5 in finals (2007-15). If you look at 2001-03 and 2013-15 in isolation, the Lions went 48-1-17 in home and away and 9-1 in finals, Hawthorn went 52-14 in home and away and 9-1 in finals (both went 17-5 and 2-1 in 2004 and 2012). If you look at Grand Final performance the Lions went +26 (against a 19/6 Essendon team), +9 (against a 15/10 Collingwood team), +50 (against a 17/8 Collingwood team) and -40 (against a 20/5 Port Adelaide team). By contrast Hawthorn went -10 (against a 19/6 Sydney team), +15 (against a 18/7 Fremantle team), +63 (against a 19/6 Sydney team) and +46 (against a 19/6 West Coast team).
Point 4 - set backs, resilence and equalisation : perhaps I'm biased but I dont think any team has withstood and excelled in an environment with so many distractions. Since 2012 Hawthorn has lost 4 assistant coaches, all leaving the nest for senior coaching gigs (Cameron, Beveridge, Simpson and Bolton)...before 2012 they also lost Hardwick to Richmond. All through 2013 they had the Buddy distraction (where a similar Cloke distraction derailed Collingwood in 2012)...not only did (arguably) the clubs best player leave the club at the end of 2013 (the player the club directed 35% of its forward entries through in the 2012 GF) but he went to the club the Hawks were rolled by in the 2012 decider...most wrote the Hawks off pre game but it didnt stop them belting the Swans by 11 goals in the 2014 decider. From health scares to tragedy, the Hawks beat father time (the oldest team ever to win the flag), the heat (hottest GF of all time), its IP being used against it (master v apprentices in games against West Coast, Richmond, GWS, W Bulldogs and now Carlton) and a comprimised draw where the top clubs must play more and more against the top 6 clubs...
The Hawks have Clarkson, they have only taken a step backwards in one season since 2005 : the lions had the better roster but Clarkson is so far ahead of the pack it really is quite stark. Not only is Clarkson the second fastest coach to achieve 4 flags in history (11 years, behind only Hafey with 9 years) but remarkably all Hawthorn sides have taken steps forward in all seasons save the 2009 hangover - from 14th, 11th, 5th, premiers, 9th, 7th, 3rd, 2nd, premiers (x 3 - inc the first team to belt sides in two successive GF opponents since the Dees in 1956-57). By contrast Matthews took over a seasoned Brisbane side, moulded by Walls (8th in '95) and Northey (3rd in 96, 8th in 97 and 16th in 98) but was unable to rebuild the squad which has haunted the club to this day
Sure Hawthorn has a number of natural advantages that makes success far easier tp achieve than the Lions -
- The Hawks (not inc Tasmania) have only travelled 20 times in 4 years...the Lions travelled 50 times interstate over the equivalent timespan
- Hawthorn plays anywhere from 14-16 home and away games a season at the MCG / Aurora (44 games at the MCG, 28 in Tasmania). Including finals Hawthorn has played 55 games at the MCG...in the same span the Lions only played 12 games at the ground. This is significant as since the start of the 2012 finals series Hawthorn has played Sydney (x3), Geelong (x2), Adelaide (×2), Collingwood (x1), Fremantle (x1), West Coast (x1), Port Adelaide (x1) all in MCG finals. Aside from Collingwood (and perhaps Geelong) Hawthorn has had home ground advantage in at least 8/11 MCG finals (inc all 4 GF's...despite being the lowest qualifier in 2014 and 2015)
- Hawthorn is a power Vic club. Prior to Clarko arriving the Hawks were a sleeping power with latent support generated on the back of its 70s and 80s success. Since 2008 its coeffers have exploded, it is now the 2nd most financial Victorian club (probably top 3 in the league) and has used this advantage to stay ahead of the competition in facilities, off field support and sport science. The Lions come from a non football market and have not been able to tap into this source...
Despite its advantages I think Hawthorn's era has been more impressive...
That said if I was to compare the the starting 22 in the 2002 Lions with the 2014 Hawks (when both clubs were at their zenith) I would expect the Lions bigger bodies to get them home by 2-3 goals in a brutal contest
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If you look over history threepeats have only really occured during times when the VFL/AFL have expanded the competition or their bas been a major talent drain...
Carlton 1906-08 (coincided with Richmond and University joining the competition)
Collingwood 1927-30 (coincided with Hawthorn, North Melbourne and Footscray joining the competition)
Melbourne 1939-41 (WWII conscription and talent drain)
Brisbane Lions 2001-03 (merger concessions, COLA and emergence.of the Dockers, Power and Lions)
Hawthorn 2013-15 (GWS and Gold Coast expansion, comprimised drafting and Free Agency)
The only era that hasnt coincided with expansion and a talent drain is Melbourne 1955-57 although the Hawks, Lions, Swans, Tigers, Roos and Saints were basically useless all through the 50s)
Carlton 1906-08 (coincided with Richmond and University joining the competition)
Collingwood 1927-30 (coincided with Hawthorn, North Melbourne and Footscray joining the competition)
Melbourne 1939-41 (WWII conscription and talent drain)
Brisbane Lions 2001-03 (merger concessions, COLA and emergence.of the Dockers, Power and Lions)
Hawthorn 2013-15 (GWS and Gold Coast expansion, comprimised drafting and Free Agency)
The only era that hasnt coincided with expansion and a talent drain is Melbourne 1955-57 although the Hawks, Lions, Swans, Tigers, Roos and Saints were basically useless all through the 50s)
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I'm in the same boat I don't put so much weight on the b2b2b like most seem to do, it does however make a slight difference and why I put Hawthorn above Geelong despite Geelong being slight better over 4 years, Brisbane behind both they were never near the level that Hawthorn and Geelong showed from season to season during the home and away.
You do realize that an inferior Hawthorn team of 08 compared to the 13-14 and 15 version beat Geelong in the middle of their prime years. In fact over that period Geelong had a winning margin of 8 points. Hawthorn is now a vastly superior unit than the one that they presented from 07 to 11.
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