Brisbane 01-03 v Geelong 07-11 v Hawthorn 08-14.

[JCHolmes]

As much as it pains me to say this but yeh if the Hawks win this years GF they will be up there for sure in terms of teams that everybody hates/respects.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Of course. We did it before, so why not again? All of those players were brought in after good seasons, so there were no high draft picks. Burgoyne was brought in via a trade.



There aren't 8 other players. Hawthorn have 6 players over 30 . . . three of whom we've already discussed, two of which there are ready made replacements for. Maybe you just overestimated the list age at Hawthorn?



Irrelevant since being a top two side doesn't guarantee a flag. If you want to argue that Hawthorn will fall out of the top 4, that's another thing, but arguing against a flag is not saying anything since nobody is guaranteed a premiership no matter how good.

what you don't seem to understand is that you cant just simply replace players of that quality. Whos going to be the next hodge ? whos going to be the next Mitchell ? whos going to be the next Burgoyne ? than you add in the other guys hale,lake and Gibson.Roguhead and lewis are also moving past their prime. You are just losing too much

I also think that you feel that hawthorn have good players coming through so you will avoid a decline , wrong good players will simply not be enough to replace what you will soon lose , you need 2 once in a generation champions and a further 6 A grade players and that just takes you back to par assuming nothing else goes wrong.

I remember driving home after Geelong beat West coast in the prelim final in 2011 , a geelong fan called in and pointed out that Geelong don't have to decline because we have a good system with talented young players coming through ,Leigh Mathews response the problem for Geelong is they have to replace champion players which is near impossible.

history suggest you need be 1 of the best 2 sides in the comp to win the premiership , hawthorn will soon not be in that category

 

[Lethality]

what you don't seem to understand is that you cant just simply replace players of that quality.

Can and have.

you need 2 once in a generation champions and a further 6 A grade players

Again, only 6 players over 30, not 8. And there are plenty of good players coming through not only to replace the once in a generation players, but also to replace the lesser likes. I am particularly looking out for Billy Hartung to make an impact in 2015, but we could also see inroads made by the likes of Woodward, Litherland, Sicily, Ceglar, Hardisty, O'Brien, O'Rourke, Frawley, Brand, etc etc.

Leigh Mathews response the problem for Geelong is they have to replace champion players which is near impossible.

Geelong didn't have the same level of depth, that much is apparent now. Chasing the likes of Rivers, Stanley, Clark, Delaney, and the list goes on, shows that they saw a depth deficit as well. This isn't the case for Hawthorn who have plenty of young talent yet to emerge and who have featured in the last two VFL Grand Finals.

 

[Hawkas1988]

Just leave it you 2. Reassess it in a few years time. Going round in circles. I see both your points, noone knows what will happen for certain.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Can and have.

Again, only 6 players over 30, not 8. And there are plenty of good players coming through not only to replace the once in a generation players, but also to replace the lesser likes. I am particularly looking out for Billy Hartung to make an impact in 2015, but we could also see inroads made by the likes of Woodward, Litherland, Sicily, Ceglar, Hardisty, O'Brien, O'Rourke, Frawley, Brand, etc etc.



Geelong didn't have the same level of depth, that much is apparent now. Chasing the likes of Rivers, Stanley, Clark, Delaney, and the list goes on, shows that they saw a depth deficit as well. This isn't the case for Hawthorn who have plenty of young talent yet to emerge and who have featured in the last two VFL Grand Finals.

Geelong lost ablett and went from 3rd to 1st.yes you lost franklin but add hodge,Mitchell,burgoynes,hale,lake and Gibson to that list.

Woodward, Litherland, Sicily, Ceglar, Hardisty, O'Brien, O'Rourke, Frawley, Brand are not going to take you to a premiership , they are miles off it .Some potential their but not premiership material.

Geelong Won the VFL premiership in 2012 and made the VFL grand final in 2013. I would say that we have done well with our transition/rebuild

Geelong has also shown that they can produce a premiership side without early draft picks ,something hawthorn have not been able to do

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Just leave it you 2. Reassess it in a few years time. Going round in circles. I see both your points, noone knows what will happen for certain.

you seriously think that hawthorn can constantly challenge for a premiership without any decline like he is suggesting ?

I am not saying hawthorn will miss the next 5 finals series ,but there will be some type of decline that puts a premiership to far out of reach.This might just be 3 or 4 years being in the bottom part of the 8 like geelong have just gone through.When you lose the amount quality of players that Geelong did and hawthorn are about to you cant replace them ,some decline is a must.

 

[Lethality]

Geelong lost ablett and went from 3rd to 1st.yes you lost franklin but add hodge,Mitchell,burgoynes,hale,lake and Gibson to that list.

We lost more than Franklin, and you've been told a few times now.

Woodward, Litherland, Sicily, Ceglar, Hardisty, O'Brien, O'Rourke, Frawley, Brand are not going to take you to a premiership

The benchmark isn't premierships, tired of repeating that no amount of talent guarantees flags.

Geelong Won the VFL premiership in 2012 and made the VFL grand final in 2013. I would say that we have done well with our transition/rebuild

Problem is it didn't transfer to AFL form. This is why Geelong delisted 8 players last year.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

We lost more than Franklin, and you've been told a few times now.



The benchmark isn't premierships, tired of repeating that no amount of talent guarantees flags.



Problem is it didn't transfer to AFL form. This is why Geelong delisted 8 players last year.

you haven't lost as much as you are about to hodge,Mitchell,Burgoyne,lake,Gibson and hales.Plus and ageing roughead and lewis.

so you are actually agreeing that hawthorn are about to enter a period of not being quite good enough to win a premiership ?

Geelong have actually done very well over the past few years. Finishing 3rd and 5th when is remarkable when we have lost so many high quality players. Don't forget geelong have lost much more talent over the past few years than Hawthorn have ,just look at this list

Ablett
Rooke
Ottens
Ling
Mooney
Milburn
Scarlett
Wojinski
Chapman
Corey
Hunt
Podsiadly

Plus age has cought up with bartel,Kelly,Mackie and enirght

 

[Lethality]

you haven't lost as much as you are about to

It seems irrelevant since losing players has only seemed to make us stronger.

so you are actually agreeing that hawthorn are about to enter a period of not being quite good enough to win a premiership ?

No . . .

,just look at this list

What about it? Am I supposed to provide a list of ALL the players Hawthorn have lost in the last 5 years?

 

[geelong_crazy26]

It seems irrelevant since losing players has only seemed to make us stronger.



No . . .



What about it? Am I supposed to provide a list of ALL the players Hawthorn have lost in the last 5 years?

so lets get this straight
you think that losing franklin,sewell and Guerra is the same as losing franklin,sewell,Guerra,hodge,Mitchel,Burgoyne,Gibson,lake and hale.Plus an ageing roughead and lewis ?

you also believe that hawthorn can challenge for the premiership every single year ?

I was simply pointing out how well geelong have done to stay up in the top 3rd of the ladder given the talent they have lost , if you want to make up a list of what hawthorn have lost by all means please do and we can compare them because I just thought of a few more I could add to that list

 

[Lethality]

so lets get this straight
you think that losing franklin,sewell and Guerra is the same as losing franklin,sewell,Guerra,hodge,Mitchel,Burgoyne,Gibson,lake and hale.Plus an ageing roughead and lewis ?

We've lost a lot more than those three, and when we lose the rest of those players they will be replaced. List refreshment has been going on for a while now.

you also believe that hawthorn can challenge for the premiership every single year ?

Maybe not every single year, but I certainly don't subscribe to a premiership window closing anytime soon. Hawthorn's depth of talent resides in the 22-27 age bracket right now.

I was simply pointing out how well geelong have done to stay up in the top 3rd of the ladder given the talent they have lost

Means nothing if they can't win finals.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

We've lost a lot more than those three, and when we lose the rest of those players they will be replaced. List refreshment has been going on for a while now.



Maybe not every single year, but I certainly don't subscribe to a premiership window closing anytime soon. Hawthorn's depth of talent resides in the 22-27 age bracket right now.



Means nothing if they can't win finals.

Its one thing to replenish a list when you have hodge and Mitchell plus lewis and roughead in their prime in your team.Replenishing a list with no Mitchell and hodge plus an old lewis and roughead is a different story.

hawthorn depths of talent resides in the 22-27 age bracket hmmmmm lets examine this ,key hawthorn players 28 and over

1.Hodge
2.Burgoyne
3.Lake
4.Hale
5.Mitchel
6.lewis
7.roughead
8.Gibson

That is very close to a list of hawthorns most important 8 players, in fact that probably is hawthorn most important 8 players.Maybe I was being kind when I said you could rebuild and stay in the 8 your most important 8 players are all 28 and over that's not good

 

[Lethality]

Its one thing to replenish a list when you have hodge and Mitchell plus lewis and roughead in their prime in your team.Replenishing a list with no Mitchell and hodge plus an old lewis and roughead is a different story.

You're just repeating the same unsubstantiated claims, whereas I have shown supporting historical evidence. Boring.

That is very close to a list of hawthorns most important 8 players, in fact that probably is hawthorn most important 8 players.

Hardly, it's just 8 players you selected because it suits your pre-conceived notions. Also another example of pulling opinions out of nowhere with no substantiating evidence.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

You're just repeating the same unsubstantiated claims, whereas I have shown supporting historical evidence. Boring.



Hardly, it's just 8 players you selected because it suits your pre-conceived notions. Also another example of pulling opinions out of nowhere with no substantiating evidence.

what evidence have you provided about how hawthorn have handled the loss or decline of their most important 8 players ?

after 09 you lost your ruckman and fullback and you couldn't even win a single final for the next 2 years

 

[Lethality]

what evidence have you provided about how hawthorn have handled the loss or decline of their most important 8 players ?

after 09 you lost your ruckman and fullback and you couldn't even win a single final for the next 2 years

Just plain wrong. After 2009 we did won a single final for the next 2 years, it was in 2011.

You've also confused multiple injuries with a couple of retirements. The problem in 2009 was injuries across the board, not the retirement of two players.

I've already shown evidence of Hawthorn managing the loss of star players, with Guerra, Sewell and Franklin being retired/lost in two years, during which we went back to back.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Just plain wrong. After 2009 we did won a single final for the next 2 years, it was in 2011.

You've also confused multiple injuries with a couple of retirements. The problem in 2009 was injuries across the board, not the retirement of two players.

I've already shown evidence of Hawthorn managing the loss of star players, with Guerra, Sewell and Franklin being retired/lost in two years, during which we went back to back.

lol mate what don't you understand about the concept that the more you lose the harder it gets ? you keep saying you lost franklin ,sewell and Guerra but your going to lose 6 more soon. Losing 9 hurts more than losing 3, than you have others who will decline .Not sure how any sensible person can argue against this

like I said before you will have flow on affects from these losses including loss of depth and having to depend on inexperience players.

I can also promise you that as sure as night follows day there will be at least 1 player on the hawthorn list who is being made to look better than he is by hodge,Mitchell and co.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

.

You've also confused multiple injuries with a couple of retirements. The problem in 2009 was injuries across the board, not the retirement of two players.

.

if injuries made you go from a top 2 side that can win a premiership to a side that cant make the top 6 than you have no depth

 

[Lethality]

if injuries made you go from a top 2 side that can win a premiership to a side that cant make the top 6 than you have no depth

Obviously it depends on the number of injuries . . .

 

[Lethality]

lol mate what don't you understand about the concept that the more you lose the harder it gets ? you keep saying you lost franklin ,sewell and Guerra but your going to lose 6 more soon. Losing 9 hurts more than losing 3,

Derp, you asked for evidence of Hawthorn replacing players, so I provided it. Losing 3 hasn't even slowed us down, so I can't imagine losing another 3 will either; that's just wishful thinking on your part.

like I said before you will have flow on affects

Yes I know what you said, but you say a lot of things, you have yet to provide any substance. Anyone can just say stuff.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Obviously it depends on the number of injuries . . .

but

Obviously it depends on the number of injuries . . .

Derp, you asked for evidence of Hawthorn replacing players, so I provided it. Losing 3 hasn't even slowed us down, so I can't imagine losing another 3 will either; that's just wishful thinking on your part.



Yes I know what you said, but you say a lot of things, you have yet to provide any substance. Anyone can just say stuff.

LOL its the same deal with losing players due to old age as it is with injuries , the more you lose the harder it gets

please provide evidence of hawthorn playing to a premiership level without franklin,sewell,Guerra,Mitchell,hodge,Burgoyne,Gibson,lake and hale ?????

 

[Hawkas1988]

you seriously think that hawthorn can constantly challenge for a premiership without any decline like he is suggesting ?

I am not saying hawthorn will miss the next 5 finals series ,but there will be some type of decline that puts a premiership to far out of reach.This might just be 3 or 4 years being in the bottom part of the 8 like geelong have just gone through.When you lose the amount quality of players that Geelong did and hawthorn are about to you cant replace them ,some decline is a must.

Wtf?? I was just telling you to both move on. This is hardly the thread for this topic anyway!

I have been constantly at odds with HP/Lethality over this issue, in another thread I told him how disrespectful and flippant he was being to our absolute champions in Mitchell, Hodge and Burgoyne. These players can't simply be replaced without a drop or the team feeling it. I do however think we will still be finalists, but not a premiership team without 1 or 2 A grade mids to replace them with.

I think tonight showed just how amazing Mitchell is. He made everyone look silly at times, losing him will hurt so much. If HP can't see this then it's his own problem.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Wtf?? I was just telling you to both move on. This is hardly the thread for this topic anyway!

I have been constantly at odds with HP/Lethality over this issue, in another thread I told him how disrespectful and flippant he was being to our absolute champions in Mitchell, Hodge and Burgoyne. These players can't simply be replaced without a drop or the team feeling it. I do however think we will still be finalists, but not a premiership team without 1 or 2 A grade mids to replace them with.

I think tonight showed just how amazing Mitchell is. He made everyone look silly at times, losing him will hurt so much. If HP can't see this then it's his own problem.

just interested in your opinion , which is basically the same as mine. Hawthorn are a talent machine without doubt but you cant lose that much quality without having some drop off , replacing franklin is one thing , add hodge,Mitchell and Burgoyne to that list and it becomes 10 time harder .

To make things clear I suspect hawthorn will be able to rebuild/transition and still make the finals at the same time

 

[Lethality]

LOL its the same deal with losing players due to old age as it is with injuries , the more you lose the harder it gets

It's entirely different, players lost through injury during a season are not replaced with other recruits bar one or two rookie upgrades. And Hawthorn had wholesale injuries in 2009.

please provide evidence of hawthorn playing to a premiership level without franklin,sewell,Guerra,Mitchell,hodge,Burgoyne,Gibson,lake and hale ?????

Meh, you're being disingenuous by requiring the unlikely ommission of a particular set of current Hawthorn players to fulfill your wonky criteria, otherwise known as moving the goalposts. Cool, I'll play your stupid game - The 1983 Grand Final.

If you want to ask a real question, such as Hawthorn playing to a premiership level after losing a bunch of players, then it's either one of the 2013/14 premierships.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

It's entirely different, players lost through injury during a season are not replaced with other recruits bar one or two rookie upgrades. And Hawthorn had wholesale injuries in 2009.



Meh, you're being disingenuous by requiring the unlikely ommission of a particular set of current Hawthorn players to fulfill your wonky criteria, otherwise known as moving the goalposts. Cool, I'll play your stupid game - The 1983 Grand Final.

If you want to ask a real question, such as Hawthorn playing to a premiership level after losing a bunch of players, then it's either one of the 2013/14 premierships.

so what you are saying is that players such as hodge,Mitchell and Burgoyne can simply be replaced ? wow mate u are really are showing a lack of respect to those 3 players

heavens above mate most premiership sides lost someone from their best 22 the year before they won the flag ,its the overall quantity and quality or you loss that determines how much damage is done. The damage done to hawthorn has been minimal over the past few years , it will get much bigger over the next 2 years.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

that's Hodgepodge your chatting with you know.
He saw firsthand how ordinary his team looked last night when you take out 3 or more of the veterans. Even if you added in Roughead and Rioli, they still wouldn't be seeing as much of the footy without having the champion midfielders rise to the occasion time and time again. Frawley too was another that didn't cope well when he had a rather young and average backline to support him. Not only will they start losing games they would never have dreamed of losing 12-18 months ago, but that aura of invincibly will slowly but surely whittle away as they fall back to the pack.

Imagine how they'd cope without any rucks and only one key forward come September

whats he changed his name for ?

I was wondering why does mister Lethality not understand that losing 4 champion players hurts the side more than losing 1 champion player , now I understand.