The system is designed for teams to rise and fall. You need to accept that at some stage the system will get you. Doesn't mean you have to like it but it is virtually inevitable.
Mega Thread Buckley coaching mega thread volume II
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The system is designed for teams to rise and fall. You need to accept that at some stage the system will get you. Doesn't mean you have to like it but it is virtually inevitable.
Who has gone backwards apart from those who have suffered from age? The realities are all that has happened is the shortcomings players had have been exposed by better, quicker and more skilful teams.
I definitely have concerns about Buckley as a coach but I think it is too simplistic to argue our declined is his fault to the extent he should be sacked. I don't think the best coach going around would have got us in to contention this year, even without the injuries. We will not know if Buckley can coach until he gets a better list which the club is clearly working on.
Without a good list a coaches options on game day are really limited. So the better coaches (ie the better lists) will out coach you every day of the week.
Which begs the question.
Why haven't we got a better list?
Smoothness
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If eddie wants us to be the man united then you have to get the best.its as simple as that.we cant afford to give a untried coach 5 years to see if hes any good.Maybe with dogs, saints, melb but not collingwood
1. Years of finals appearances which means very few top 10 picks. Although in general when using those picks in recent years we have done well.
2. Poor trading (Jolly and Ball excluded).
3. Using high draft picks on Woods, Jolly, Ball in trying to win a flag which has robbed talent from today.
4. The compromised draft
In 2009 our first pick was effectively 62 (after Jolly and Ball), in 2010 was 45, and 2011 was 50.
The current list is the cumulation of a number of factors that occurred as we pushed for flags over the last few years of MM's rule. That is not to criticise MM it is just a fact and how the system is designed.
We have clearly decided that we need to rebuild (which I agree having just watched the lists for teams in the prelims) and at this point Buckley should more be judged on the list he builds rather than results, ladder position and his game day coaching. That should come at a later stage.
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Clarkson was untried when appointed to Hawks, Longmire at Swans etc. All coaches are untried at some stage. At this point in time the priority should be on the list and developing the next generation of stars. The last two drafts have clearly been aimed at that and I expect this year to be exactly the same. Buckley's coaching ability cannot really be judged until we have a more competitive list. Good lists make good coaches. It is up to the Club to provide that list.
Anzacday
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Brilliant summation; we tried to squeeze one more flag out of the list by topping up.
As soon as Bucks realised in 2012, (even though we made a Prelim.) he made changes by trading into the draft and getting Grundy, Broomy, Kenno and again last year with Shaz & Freeman and trying free agency/trade to offset some of the youth.
All five of those players have been hampered by injury which impacted Bucks' hand, (to use a cards analogy).
It's pretty clear to me the strategy is the right one otherwise we just continue to top up and will be worse off for a longer period of time.
Bucks isn't afraid to make the hard call for the betterment of the club, (potentially at the detriment of his own reputation - at least in the short term).
All those questioning whether players want to be there, in case I've forgotten; please remind me who we've lost that we didn't want to lose, ( we = club, not supporters).
The end
BlackWhiteBlood
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I WILL NOT HAVE MY LOVE FOR THE COLLINGWOOD FC called into question. But you live in a fantasy world if you think we have the right to make finals every year.
But it is about accepting reality, as ClaytonM pointed out, with draft laws etc the system is setup so that teams can not stay up all the time. Teams will move up and down the ladder, in and out of finals through natural progression and regression. And I would rather move down the ladder a bit sooner, by trading out older players to get potential young talent. That way we can move up again into the finals and have a serious crack at the premiership sooner, then if the older players had been kept in. I very much doubt we would be playing on Saturday if Dawes, Wellingham, Shaw, Jolly etc where in the team, this is why they where retired or traded or we let them go, as the long term picture was looked at.
You talk about making finals, we where the longest serving current team in the finals, with 2005 the last time we missed out, our time had come. With one premiership in that time, and two GF's I believe that is under-performing. Hawthorn has just entered their 3rd GF in a row sitting at 1:1, having previously won in 2008. That is acceptable. Finals mean NOTHING unless you are making it the last day in September and winning the premiership. If you are only accepting finals appearances as success then you are not aiming high enough.
While I was not to sure about the succession plan when first muted and still not 100% sure it was the right move, in reality as I was pointing out in my post it has occurred and we have Bucks as coach, remembering several other clubs where after his signature at the time. Therefor what other options do we have, there are currently no proven coaches around that are likely to leave their current club. Right now we must trust in Bucks reassess in two years and see where we sit. If in two years we are still out of the eight then look at getting rid of him and starting again.
jmac70
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Have you watched Man U lately?
DolphinMan
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Apex...read posts carefully so that you can understand them....the point being made is that the list although YOUNG is quite good. However the style of play ie game plan is disorganized and a scratchy at best. Sometimes that does come with a young group, but the forward line has been dysfunctional for 3 years. Coke gets tripled team every week yet the unintelligent blame him. zWhat is telling me that Buckley id a poor coach is 3 things
1 We have steadily been beaten in the clearances for 3 years and there has been no plan to counter it.
2 We have played the same set up in the forward line with n real success for 3 years.
3 Our kick in strategy and movement out from the backline has not worked cohesively and there has been no system change by the coach. Its a failed situation week after week.
MM was not going to take us any further and that ship had sailed. The list changes were necessary but there was nothing wrong with the culture at the PIES. We had a winning culture. We do not have that now
I don't believe Buckley is a smart coach is all Im saying.Great speaker, media performer etc. Can he coach? I am not convinced at this stage. Can he improve? Of course but he better in 2015 or that will be 4 years in a row regressing. Did you understand all that young Apex?
DolphinMan
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This is a Buckley coaching thread is it not? This is where you are meant to debate opinions aren't you?...Well what are you complaining about?
DolphinMan
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A random? do you mean another blogger ?...
DolphinMan
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Pardon me smootheness....was meant for Good Ole Man
Smoothness
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Thats not a bad point you raise.
Smoothness
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What did they do with moyes? Now they have new coach (proven) and are getting top players.see how they finish the year off.
Smoothness
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Haha dolphin.No worries
Smoothness
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But with free trade agency we shouldnt have to bottom out in regards to draft picks.Its not like the old days now.
Yeh they have been terrible, HOWEVER Sir Alex Ferguson retired out of his own free will. We on the other hand basically sacked Mick Malthouse. Just go to show when you make changes when you are at or near the top the consequences can be disastrous.
The other teams are still laughing at what we did. Simply idiotic management.
BlackWhiteBlood
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I don't regard finishing 11th as bottoming out. Bottom 4 yes but not 11th. The team list has to be in the right place for FA to work. Hawthorn has worked it well the past few seasons with Lake as to did North with Dal Santo and Sydney with Buddy. They where/are teams on the cusp of making and winning a GF as the start of the season. Teams also down the bottom who need leadership and experience can benefit from FA. Mid rung teams or teams in the middle of a re-build do not fully benefit from a FA and can sometime benefit more from recruiting via the draft instead.
A cheaper FA, ie Young for us is a temporary stop gap measure. He is there to wait for our young players to improve (hopefully). I doubt Young would be on much more then $400,000
An expensive FA ie Daisy is recruited if your team is in your eyes close to winning the premiership, and need that little bit extra. But this method can easily backfire.
For us I would rather wait another season or two, hopefully our young players come on as expected, and we are close to being in contention for the flag. Then pay the big $$$$ for a gun FA to give us that little bit extra.
Woods List Clogger
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Gee,Collingwoods fall down the ladder happened because Malthouse left.Now knowing this, I suppose Carlton must be disappointed they replaced Rattan,a coach who regularly got them into the finals,with a coach who compared with Rattan's efforts could only be described as a disappointing failure.Ah Mick Malthouse rose like a rocket fell like a stick.
Apex36
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I understand you perfectly. Doesn't mean I have to agree with you sweetheart.
Funnily enough, the last time our forward line functioned well was when some guy named Nathan Buckley was our forward coach. Then it went to s**t under Lappin. Also, the forward line setup should have been very different, and would have been this year, if not for Reid being injured all season. Hardly something that can be blamed on the coach.
Like you, I'm not convinced that Buckley is a great coach, but at the same time I'm not convinced he isn't a great coach either. Certain circumstances have dictated our slide down the ladder that have been beyond Bucks' control, some that were within it.
I'm still waiting to see what this team is capable of with a relatively fit list, which will be the real test. It's been 3 horror years now, and we are due for some luck on the injury front.
All I know is that we have had some youngsters really start to flourish under Bucks, and there were a few games this year where everything clicked and we played some really exciting football. My fingers are crossed that more consistent performances will come hand in hand with the games pumped into our kids over the past 2 years.
And saying nothing was wrong with the culture is BS. Any mug with half a brain could see the cracks starting to appear about halfway through 2011.
It shits me to tears seeing supporters call for the sacking of a promising young coach after 2 or 3 years.
We saw what Thompson was capable of after he was given time, and we're now seeing the Roos flourish under Brad Scott after he was given time.
If you want to be a club like Melbourne so switches coaches every few years and has no success for over half a century, fine. But don't expect me to agree with you.
Sigh, this chestnut again.
Did Sydney sack Paul Roos when they signed him to that succession plan? Or Melbourne for that matter?
Stop talking rubbish.
clarkson, longmire, scott, thompson , choco williams - all untried coaches in fact since 2004 all flag winning coaches except for MM have been untried.
So your theory is stuffed - history says ignore the critics and stick with the untried coach as geel, haw, port and swans have and you'll win a flag.
Smoothness
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Mathew knights, sanderson, ratten, neeld, harvey, voss I could go on for a few paragraphs but I'll stop here.
here an idea - how about you give us your theory on why
You should also add the TRIED coaches who have failed -
I've proven untried coaches have one EVERY flag in the last 10 years except 2010.
So you need to provide evidence that replacing Bucks with a TRIED coach is a BETTER formula for success.
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