Opinion Butcher

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croweyrocks said:
Just an opinion but I reckon Mason Shaw looked to be our best go to big fwd that day. I think everyone measures goals as a "fair" stat for Key Forwards. In any team that is looking to compete for a flag (which we want to do dont we?) there big forward is generally a GREAT goal kicker (Franklin, Roughead, Pavlich, Schulz). Now for Port to be any good in the years to come (post schulz) we need a guy to be able to kick quite a few goals and with such a technique I don't see him "leading the goalkicking" in an AFL team.
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I agree goal kicking is important, but it isn't the be all end all. When Butch fluffs an uncontested mark in goal scoring range I will let him have it, but on that day, he didn't get that service Mason had, he gad to work up the ground to find space and good delivery, and used ball well moving it forward more often than not.

No one except Schulz, Pavlich, Roughead, or Buddy would be able to kick 50+ in our current forward setup. Good teams can cover that by playing a good structure, West Coast were able to carry Quentin Lynch to a 60 goal season with effective football for a FF. Hawthorn had 3 players kick over 50 with their style of football. We had about 4 in 2014 kick in the 40s with good forwardline play. We currently aren't doing that in either grade, and our forwards are having to find other ways to impact the game (and struggling).
 
I doubt there is a genuine Port supporter out there who doesn't want Butch to succeed, but we have to be honest and accept the fact he has got the rest of this season to turn things around or he is goneski - simple as that.
Hopefully he will come back after the bye and get his career back on track, because I am of the opinion ( rightly or wrongly ) that the coaching staff have given up on him.

Powerstuff is on the money, ie too many of Butch's goals have come from scraps over the back, or frees near the goal square.
The key forward's bread and butter of lead, mark, kick = goal, unfortunately wouldn't feature too often in his resume.

As a comparison Scott Hodges returned from an extremely serious ankle injury, yet still performed in a much stronger snafl comp than the one we have today, in my opinion a mid 20's Hodges would tear any current snafl defender a new one.
 

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1954 said:
I doubt there is a genuine Port supporter out there who doesn't want Butch to succeed, but we have to be honest and accept the fact he has got the rest of this season to turn things around or he is goneski - simple as that.
Hopefully he will come back after the bye and get his career back on track, because I am of the opinion ( rightly or wrongly ) that the coaching staff have given up on him..
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So your idea is we go into season 2016 with a 31 year old tiring shultz , and two players who haven't even played an afl game yet , nor more than 30 games in the sanfl?

Just rookie list butch , otherwise we could have westhoff as our ff next year
 
philthy05 said:
So your idea is we go into season 2016 with a 31 year old tiring shultz , and two players who haven't even played an afl game yet , nor more than 30 games in the sanfl?

Just rookie list butch , otherwise we could have westhoff as our ff next year
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Assuming Butch agrees, rookie listing may be the way to go.
 
I have no doubt Cripps would be in the ear of a few key forward options at other clubs and probably has been for a couple of years.

Ken, KT and co are planning well out for upcoming gaps in the list.

I'm sure they would be prepared to meet Hawkins' demands and would be scouting lesser known options too.
 
El_Scorcho said:
Yep, and half this board is again calling for his delisting. Meanwhile, nobody else is doing any better.
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So we trade in/draft/delisted FA someone else. If Schulz goes down tomorrow then Butch comes in, but that's not necessarily a reason to give him a contract extension. We can readjust our list in the offseason. At the very least we'd be able to draft a KPF someone playing competent football at state league level.

There's nobody on our list who I would love to see succeed more than Butcher, but if he continues averaging barely over a goal a game at SANFL level, he won't be on our list next year.
 
Schulzenfest said:
So we trade in/draft/delisted FA someone else. If Schulz goes down tomorrow then Butch comes in, but that's not necessarily a reason to give him a contract extension. We can readjust our list in the offseason. At the very least we'd be able to draft a KPF someone playing competent football at state league level.

There's nobody on our list who I would love to see succeed more than Butcher, but if he continues averaging barely over a goal a game at SANFL level, he won't be on our list next year.
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I agree in general. My point was only really in response to the assertion that Butcher was ineffective at SANFL level.

He'll need to bounce back pretty quickly from the bitten tongue 3 touch game.
 
Powerade 08 said:
True. remember that game where he played more than one decent qtr, had 10 plus touches and kicked the ball through the middle sticks with his textbook kicking action

oh...
oh
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Which one do you mean? He had 10 touches in all 3 games he played at AFL level last year.

I assume you mean the Showdown where he kicked a set shot from 40 out to put us back in front in the 3rd quarter.
 
edgie said:
I agree goal kicking is important, but it isn't the be all end all. When Butch fluffs an uncontested mark in goal scoring range I will let him have it, but on that day, he didn't get that service Mason had, he gad to work up the ground to find space and good delivery, and used ball well moving it forward more often than not.

No one except Schulz, Pavlich, Roughead, or Buddy would be able to kick 50+ in our current forward setup. Good teams can cover that by playing a good structure, West Coast were able to carry Quentin Lynch to a 60 goal season with effective football for a FF. Hawthorn had 3 players kick over 50 with their style of football. We had about 4 in 2014 kick in the 40s with good forwardline play. We currently aren't doing that in either grade, and our forwards are having to find other ways to impact the game (and struggling).
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Yeah I reckon Josh Kennedy, Jack Gunston, Tom Hawkins, Jeremy Cameron, Taylor Walker, Jack Reiwoldt would give it a good crack to kick 50+ in our setup also. Beyond the point in 2 years Schulz will be done IMO and I am extremely worried in Butchers inability to be able to kick straight.
I agree our setup sucks at the moment! Very frustrating to watch!
 
Schulzenfest said:
So we trade in/draft/delisted FA someone else. If Schulz goes down tomorrow then Butch comes in, but that's not necessarily a reason to give him a contract extension. We can readjust our list in the offseason. At the very least we'd be able to draft a KPF someone playing competent football at state league level..
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Draft a state league player that can play ff in the afl? If only someone else thought of that idea.

Sorry for the sarcasm but yeah , if they could play afl , they would be on an afl list. There just are never afl quality forwards sitting in state leagues waiting to be drafted.

As for re-adjust our list in the off-season , yeah I'm all for chasing a key forward. Just like every other team will be with their bank books. But on the chance we don't sign Hawkins ( the only key forward available in free agency as Dixon is expected to sign apparently) then yeah , butcher >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over some state league hack. And no way do I want to roll into 2016 with 31 yr old Shultz as our only proven forward unless shaw suddenly goes berserk at the tail end of this year.
 

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If Schulz went down tomorrow Butch would not come in... in his current state hell no
 
If Shultz went down for a game or two... And butch wasn't in great form maybe you don't

If it's 2016 , 3 games into the season , and shultz goes down with a season ending injury , would you be happy to play westhoff / Ryder / Neade / monfries / Kane Mitchell as our forward line for the season?


All I'm saying is there is no way in hell I want to see us go into 2016 with Shultz , shaw and harvey as our key forward options. There is just way too big a gap between Shultz and shaw right now unless shaw closes that gap significantly before years end. This obviously changes if we can add a Hawkins , but that's a long shot , one worth trying but a long shot. I would rookie butch , just to have that extra cover. I reckon if mason is some chance to make it he could start to show some signs in 2016 , but wouldn't want to bank on him being a number one target at afl level week in week out at the age of 22
 
Schulzenfest said:
On what basis? There are plenty of 'state league hacks' playing significantly better football than Butcher at the same level. If I told you that there was a nearly 24 year old SANFL KPF who has kicked 8 goals from 6 games this year, who is probably the worst set shot in the SANFL, and who doesn't have the confidence in himself to take a set shot from any further than about 40 metres out, would you want us to draft that player, or would you describe that player as a 'state league hack'?

The difference between Butcher and, say, Brett Eddy, might be upside. Butcher has athleticism that plenty of these guys don't have. If it ever clicks, he has more potential to be a better player. But it's becoming less and less likely that he's ever going to achieve that potential. We're talking about a guy who has progressively deteriorated every year since he started his career so well to the point that he's now barely SANFL standard. I just can't see it happening any more, as much as I'd love it to happen. I don't even think that Butcher himself can see it happening.
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Podsiadly and Ben Brown are 2 guys who were drafted as mature key forwards who offer plenty more than Butcher. Can't think of any others off the top of my head. Schulz might have been another one if we didn't take the punt and he went and played SANFL for a year.
 
Mason hasn't set the world on fire this year albeit he hasn't had an ideal lead in with injury but their gonna have to play him as a permanent forward in the SANFL for us to get an idea of where he's at tbh.
 
I've said myself in this thread I think butch has a mountain to climb. I Wouldn't bet my hard earned on him making it. Would you delist butch to rookie eddy? Why? Do you think eddy could compete at afl level? I don't think he could for one second.

As for butchers form this season , it hasn't actually gone downhill at all. Last season he was playing as a ff. this season he is rotating as we try to develop 4 or 5 different forwards. Clurey has probably spent as much time in the forward fifty as butch has this season. Although butcher hasn't taken a leap forward this season either , which is what he really needs to do. That's the problem , another year on and we really need him to break the shackles but he doesn't quite look like doing it.

Btw , there are plenty of state league hacks playing better footy than clurey at the moment , probably Byrnes jones, probably half our maggies side aren't playing as well as these state league hacks. Doesn't mean they are better afl players. Otherwise we should have summo lining up against Richmond.

Butch is a long shot to make it, a damn long shot , but considering Hawkins at this moment is a pipe dream , and Shultz is near done , westhoff isn't a key forwards pinky finger , and shaw hasn't even played an afl game scrubbing butch and hoping everything just falls into place re Shultz defying age and injury and form and shaw suddenly becoming our golden boy , placing butch on the rookie list isn't the dumbest idea.
 
We need to draft a tall capable forward this summer no ifs or buts about it.. looks bleak without the shultzenfest
 
pafc88 said:
We need to draft a tall capable forward this summer no ifs or buts about it.. looks bleak without the shultzenfest
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We drafted pretty tall last year, with Howard being the 4th developing KPF we have in the SANFL when he gets fit.

Unless there's a mature ager who fits or a can't miss prospect falls to us, I'd suggest we'll go for smalls.
 
I think its time to devote completely to the development of Mason Shaw (and others?) as our main targets forwards

Butch at age 24 still can't kick.

Bad kicking is bad football and you can't afford to be kicking points in high stakes AFL games (see last game)

Maybe he has a future as a KPD, maybe not.

What we do know is that he doesn't have the key attribute to reward the hard work of an AFL midfield.
 
JimmyBeerCans said:
Mason hasn't set the world on fire this year albeit he hasn't had an ideal lead in with injury but their gonna have to play him as a permanent forward in the SANFL for us to get an idea of where he's at tbh.
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It's a bit off-topic in a Butcher thread but I don't think he's that guy. On returning from injury late last year he had a small purple patch, including one game where he scored 5. But from memory it was more running the ball in from outside the 50, or opportunist stuff from not far inside it. Like Westhoff when he's in a roaming role.
 
Was listening to SEN yesterday (such a difference listening to a decent footy show on the radio!!) and they were speaking to the North Melbourne forward coach who made a good point about Jarrad Waite that I reckon applies in reverse to Butcher.

He said that Waite really benefits by being the second/third forward at the Kangaroos behind Petrie and Brown. He's averaging more goals per year than any year atm as he is no longer the number 1 KPF at Carlton. Chris Dawes is the same - he was good as a second forward at Collingwood but has struggles as the main target at Melbourne.

I think Butcher works in reverse. His most successful games at AFL level have come when he is the number 1 forward. However, due to Shultz being our number 1 KPF, Butcher has needed to adapt to become the second forward, a transition that he hasn't managed to get right. Compounding this is that when he plays in the Magpies, he is the primary target, however he is probably also being taught running patterns/positioning as a second forward to develop into the AFL team.

Irrespective of his form at $ANFL level, if Shultz were to go down, I'd still be confident Butch could come in and perform as he is a natural forward. It is when he has to play alongside Shultz/learn how to be the 2nd KPF in the $ANFL, his game falls apart. He definitely warrants a spot on our list next year
 
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