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JimmyBeerCans

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Butcher is a forward and he lives or dies as a forward.
Bit of time down back in the SANFL wont hurt him IMO might help him following a decent SANFL forward who knows where to run etc., his goal kicking is obviously his biggest downfall but jeez he misjudges the flight of the ball alot for a forward & his leading patterns at times are baffling.
 
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Just watching the round 2 Showdown and I must say on keeping my eye on Butch, I think he had a pretty good game. Clean pickups at his feet, quick hands and he presented and competed. There is something there, God I hope we can see it this year.
Thought the same, and i was behind the north goals, and he did enough for me to turn around and give it to the cow supporters standing on the hill.
 

El_Scorcho

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He was better than the average 20 game KPF in the Crows game, which is why so many of us were up in arms when he was dropped after the North game.

Had he played every game in place of either Sam Gray or Kane Mitchell this season just gone, we'd be a better team and Butcher would be a better player, and even if he wasn't a better player, we'd know.

Hinkley and his team have done a lot for this club but I am adamant they made a poor call on dropping a confidence player after one down game only for us to spend most of the season with small depth getting games while we were screaming out for another tall.
 

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portly

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Just watching the round 2 Showdown and I must say on keeping my eye on Butch, I think he had a pretty good game. Clean pickups at his feet, quick hands and he presented and competed. There is something there, God I hope we can see it this year.

I also watched the replay recently. While I agree with you that his skills were fine at times, there were two problems:

1. Our players were not kicking it to him. They chose someone else to kick it to. Perhaps his team mates have no confidence in his ability to kick a goal. Perhaps his leading patterns made it difficult to get the ball to him. I don't know, but it seemed to me that he was almost a decoy rather than a genuine option.

2. As someone said, he plays small rather than as a tall, and we need a tall forward.
 

El_Scorcho

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Having a 197cm tall who can play as a small is not a bad thing.

He's a 23 game KPF. He isn't expected to be Wayne Carey. All he has to do in the air is compete.

If he plays like a small when the ball hits the ground (and he does compared to most talls) that's a huge bonus. People whinged that he was getting a lot of small forward type goals. From a guy his size I don't see that as a bad thing.

As he continues to compete and gain experience, the lead/mark/kick/goal type goals will come more frequently, but he's always hit the scoreboard pretty consistently even if not in a traditional KPF way. But he has only played 20 games and has been wrecked by injury.
 

Lou Zyffer

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So what is a pass mark for Butch this year then? His contract is up at the end of the year so what sort of season will it take from Butch to be offered a new contract? I'm interested to know what posters think.
 

El_Scorcho

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So what is a pass mark for Butch this year then? His contract is up at the end of the year so what sort of season will it take from Butch to be offered a new contract? I'm interested to know what posters think.

To be offered a new contract he'd have to remain ahead of Shaw and Harvey this season, unless Shaw goes bananas. He's currently our best KPF not getting an AFL game, and as such we can't just cut him.

If we can say without argument that he's been surpassed by both Harvey and Shaw he's definitely gone.

If he's only been surpassed by Shaw he might be gone, but if he's surpassed by Shaw because Shaw has a huge breakout year, and Butcher still plays well, it's 50/50.
 

JimmyBeerCans

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So what is a pass mark for Butch this year then? His contract is up at the end of the year so what sort of season will it take from Butch to be offered a new contract? I'm interested to know what posters think.
He'd need to play 15 games of reasonable to good quality football... I don't see it, happy to be wrong though
 

El_Scorcho

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He'd need to play 15 games of reasonable to good quality football... I don't see it, happy to be wrong though

Okay, say he plays 12 games of reasonable to good quality football. He's solid but not spectacular, similar to 2014.

Shaw and Harvey don't come on at all and Butcher remains ahead of them at SANFL level.

In the 3rd quarter of the grand final, Schulz does his knee and it's a Trent Croad style win the flag but end your career.

You can't delist Butcher in that scenario. What happens to Butcher is dependent on what happens to our other KPFs as it is on his own form.
 

JimmyBeerCans

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Okay, say he plays 12 games of reasonable to good quality football. He's solid but not spectacular, similar to 2014.

Shaw and Harvey don't come on at all and Butcher remains ahead of them at SANFL level.

In the 3rd quarter of the grand final, Schulz does his knee and it's a Trent Croad style win the flag but end your career.

You can't delist Butcher in that scenario. What happens to Butcher is dependent on what happens to our other KPFs as it is on his own form.
If his SANFL form is similar to 2014 he'll never play again
 

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JimmyBeerCans

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Oh sorry I forgot that seagull goals in the goalsquare are no longer worth 6 points silly me.
Hey if he starts taking a good number of marks on the lead consistently per game, hitting packs hard, improves the obvious & stops over running the ball in flight I'm all for him getting a crack.... his problems run a lot deeper than his goal kicking issues
 
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I try and avoid this thread a lot but only because I have complete faith in John. He has simply too many tools to not be a capable player and I think he can be more than that. Bit of confidence in his performances and body will work wonders. While I understand the mental side of the game is a huge factor I think if he can get through those demons this talk will be quickly ceased.

Oh and the backhanded compliments really pissing me off. I get it, some supporters don't think he can make it and I'm sure some judging by their comments don't like him but surely give the guy a break and a grace period that he's yet to have while being here.

/end whatever that was and in b4 all the ramblings I have read too often.
 

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But.. also noted that his 'grace' period for him to get his body right is running out..

Stating the obvious here dont want to put any unnecessary pressure on the guy but unfortunately time is ticking for him.

Our assault on the flag would receive a major boost if this guy turns up and plays some good footy but im not holding my breathe.

I think you will find that Ken has already had that kind of discussion with him and made it very clear to him.
 

Lou Zyffer

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Thanks for the replies. I asked because I really don't know what the club would be expecting of him this year. There's too many possibilities to list the things that may or may not happen that would see him re-signed.

I guess I was thinking something like 12-15 games and 30-35 goals (15+ games) but again, he could play quite well, not achieve that many goals and yet still be a more than valuable KPP.

I just hope like hell that for both the club and Butch himself he can show enough to hang on to him. Based on in particular the last 4 months of the season (certainly on what I've read here) I just wish I could be more confident of that actually happening.
 

El_Scorcho

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Hey if he starts taking a good number of marks on the lead consistently per game, hitting packs hard, improves the obvious & stops over running the ball in flight I'm all for him getting a crack.... his problems run a lot deeper than his goal kicking issues

I'm sorry you've just made an argument that infuriated me during the season and I can't help but react that way.

When Butcher was dropped "Oh yeah well he played pretty well in the first 3 weeks but he really has to hit the scoreboard more often"

When Butcher kicked 2 bags of 5 in his first 3 games back and then averaged 3 goals a game for about 12 weeks "Oh but he's not kicking the right sort of goals, he's just getting on the end of good work from his teammates"

literallyanynicholascagememe.jpg
 
I watched part of the first showdown on Fox the other day. He played pretty well, that sort of output is more than adequate until he gets more confidence. I wont say he didn't deserve to be dropped because results show that for whatever reason Hinkley didn't play him, we still won.
 

El_Scorcho

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I watched part of the first showdown on Fox the other day. He played pretty well, that sort of output is more than adequate until he gets more confidence. I wont say he didn't deserve to be dropped because results show that for whatever reason Hinkley didn't play him, we still won.

This is perhaps the most frustrating argument about the Butcher dropping, even worse than the "He's not kicking the right sort of goals" argument.

In round 13 2013 we defeated Sydney, the then reigning premier, in a stirring comeback at AAMI stadium. Travis Boak missed that game. Should we perhaps have left Boaky out the following week because clearly we were winning without him so hey why not go in unchanged?

It's a ridiculous point. Sometimes you play well with players missing, it doesn't mean you overall wont be a better side when they come back.

We monstered sides for about another 10 weeks after Butcher got dropped before losing a string of games because we'd gone into them too short. We flogged Brisbane by triple figures the week after the North game with Sam Gray coming in and dining out on Brisbane's total inability to deal with us to the tune of 3 goals. Barring some sort of off field punishment that was kept in house by the club, it was comprehensively the wrong decision to drop John Butcher for Sam Gray for that game and that sort of "who gives a s**t about structure we'll just steamroll teams" attitude cost us games, a top 2 position and potentially a premiership later in the year.

We didn't have any talls to come in when Carlile and Trengove went down because we'd actively made the decision that we could play short every week and get away with it. That was a decision that was made and it was the wrong one. The excuse of "Oh but we don't have any talls who are ready" was made despite Butcher and Clurey being ready enough in round 1. If we'd bothered to continue the development of Butcher at AFL level we wouldn't have been caught so drastically short during a tough part of the season. The difference ultimately was playing Hawthorn in Melbourne after a road trip to Perth instead of playing them at the Portress fresh from a week off.
 

Lou Zyffer

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In round 13 2013 we defeated Sydney, the then reigning premier, in a stirring comeback at AAMI stadium. Travis Boak missed that game. Should we perhaps have left Boaky out the following week because clearly we were winning without him so hey why not go in unchanged?

I thought the exact same thing. I reckon we won a few games when Tredders did his knee too. Probably didn't need him then really either. ;)
 
This is perhaps the most frustrating argument about the Butcher dropping, even worse than the "He's not kicking the right sort of goals" argument.

In round 13 2013 we defeated Sydney, the then reigning premier, in a stirring comeback at AAMI stadium. Travis Boak missed that game. Should we perhaps have left Boaky out the following week because clearly we were winning without him so hey why not go in unchanged?

It's a ridiculous point. Sometimes you play well with players missing, it doesn't mean you overall wont be a better side when they come back.

We monstered sides for about another 10 weeks after Butcher got dropped before losing a string of games because we'd gone into them too short. We flogged Brisbane by triple figures the week after the North game with Sam Gray coming in and dining out on Brisbane's total inability to deal with us to the tune of 3 goals. Barring some sort of off field punishment that was kept in house by the club, it was comprehensively the wrong decision to drop John Butcher for Sam Gray for that game and that sort of "who gives a s**t about structure we'll just steamroll teams" attitude cost us games, a top 2 position and potentially a premiership later in the year.

We didn't have any talls to come in when Carlile and Trengove went down because we'd actively made the decision that we could play short every week and get away with it. That was a decision that was made and it was the wrong one. The excuse of "Oh but we don't have any talls who are ready" was made despite Butcher and Clurey being ready enough in round 1. If we'd bothered to continue the development of Butcher at AFL level we wouldn't have been caught so drastically short during a tough part of the season. The difference ultimately was playing Hawthorn in Melbourne after a road trip to Perth instead of playing them at the Portress fresh from a week off.

No it isn't you just fail to recognise that the ends justified the means. The only result we had was WIN. If you want to stretch your what ifs, then what if Butcher played and we LOST. Hinkley winning means it was the correct decision, I love Butcher but the ends always justify the means in footy. I think Neade instead of Butcher cost us in the prelim but the ten win streak is enough proof the first dropping was the correct decision.

The Boak analogy was irrelevant.
 

SwampRat

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So what is a pass mark for Butch this year then? His contract is up at the end of the year so what sort of season will it take from Butch to be offered a new contract? I'm interested to know what posters think.

10 games and 15 goals for mine. A bag or two of 4 or 5 would be nice too.

That said, if he's good enough to get 10 games and 15 goals, he'll likely play more (and kick more). He has to crack best 22 first. Paddy Ryder has made that a bit harder for him.
 
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