Two goals per game is the benchmark for an established forward. The Coleman Medalist will typically get around 3. For an up-and-comer, I think 1.5 goals per game should be the pass mark, provided he plays a good number of games.
Opinion Butcher
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Two goals per game is the benchmark for an established forward. The Coleman Medalist will typically get around 3. For an up-and-comer, I think 1.5 goals per game should be the pass mark, provided he plays a good number of games.
- Aug 21, 2007
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No it absolutely isn't and that's a non-sequitur.
I can't make this any clearer
Winning =/= ideal football
Winning =/= ideal selection
Winning =/= a coach making all the right decisions.
Winning simply means that you are better on the day than the team you played.
I can just as easily say it was a wrong decision because we didn't win the premiership. It's a meaningless statement.
Schulzenfest
TheBrownDog
I just want to know how badly Butcher would've had to play to turn our 113 point win over Brisbane into a loss 
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- Jun 26, 2004
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Being able to survive his inclusion is a reason for his selection now?I just want to know how badly Butcher would've had to play to turn our 113 point win over Brisbane into a loss
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If only he could ******* kick
That will be the key to Butch, if he can get his set shot kicking right everything else should fall into place, if not it will almost certainly be sayonara.
Does anyone else remember Ted Lane, a mature age (22) full forward the Maggies brought down from the bush in the early 1970's.
He would take at least 7 or 8 marks within 20 to 40 metres of goal per game, but his conversion rate was horrendous, due to his one step, 2 handed ball drop technique, and after one season in the magoos he went back to the farm and never represented the club again.
Ford Fairlane
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Don't remember Ted Lane but I do remember Colin Northcott who could effortlessly find the ball at full forward but couldn't convert.
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I just want to know how badly Butcher would've had to play to turn our 113 point win over Brisbane into a loss
Unless he lived up to his name and actually decapitated his teammates I don't think he could've swayed the contest in Brisbane's favour.
He still would have been dropped had he stayed in a week or two longer, it tends to happen when you run around aimlessly and spray shots on goal from arsehole to breakfast.
I think he's even less of a chance to play this year with Ryder coming in. It could however give him a bit of confidence knowing he can spend some of the season playing for the maggies and not worrying about public ridicule too much if he's called into the Power side.
With Schulz getting towards the end, we will need either him to lift his game this year, or hope Shaw or Harvey come on over the next 3. Either way, I hope we have saved room to bring in Cameron!
With Schulz getting towards the end, we will need either him to lift his game this year, or hope Shaw or Harvey come on over the next 3. Either way, I hope we have saved room to bring in Cameron!
- Aug 21, 2007
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But that's not what had been happening in his 3 AFL games in 2014. He'd been down against North as a developing forward in a game where his team had a very dirty day, but against the Crows he was a solid contributor at worst.
I'd argue that against Brisbane who had zero ability to defend in the midfield and had no tall fit and playing defenders to speak of, Butcher would have been very likely to have a breakout game. Had he kicked the 3 goals that Sam Gray kicked in that game it might just have springboarded him into some confidence and some form.
If he hadn't done that, and he'd had a few more games in a row like the North game, I would have begrudgingly agreed with his dropping. It's very frustrating when Butcher was afforded one bad game before being dropped when Kane Mitchell played several this year and was still in the side the following week. We needed to develop a KPF a lot more than we needed a player with Mitchell's skillset.
- Jan 30, 2013
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the dropping of butcher was warranted. whether it was the best way for his personal season to progress is debatable. However, you cannot argue he didn't deserve to be dropped. It nearly worked too, if he had put one more solid game at SANFL together at about round 9 he probably would have been recalled, but he didnt. We can't talk about ifs and buts because he just didn't put the runs on the board when he needed too.
His time will come, with a pre-season and boost of confidence from that. Next year he should at minimum be able to play more consistent SANFL football, which probably gets him games at the AFL level.
His time will come, with a pre-season and boost of confidence from that. Next year he should at minimum be able to play more consistent SANFL football, which probably gets him games at the AFL level.
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I am 100% totally arguing that he didn't deserve to be dropped and frankly I think it's ludicrous that he was.
After the Crows game he was widely praised from even his biggest critics on this board for his performance. One down game and he suddenly doesn't deserve his place? He's 20 game developing forward, they have down games and need to be given time to develop.
We didn't even have a tall to replace him with, which cost us big time later in the year.
It was a terrible decision to drop him for a myriad of reasons and his form didn't warrant dropping.
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Unless you were in the coaches box for the North game and know exactly what his role was, there is no way you can say he didn't deserve to be dropped. Maybe he ignored a clear instruction in order to get a kick and in doing so cost the team a goal? Who knows? There is more to football than just form, and on Ken's team, everyone fights, no one quits.
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I've been consistent in saying that I believe there must have been some sort of disciplinary reason for Butcher's dropping that the club kept in house. It was an awful decision from a footballing perspective but I can totally understand if he breached a team rule or something similar.
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I do remember Northcott, Jack Cahill tried him at fullback in 1974 or 75, and he looked ok in the role, but he later lost the gig to Trevor Sorrell who went on to become the state fullback.
From memory Paul Dutch played fullback for the Maggies between Northcott and Sorrell until he was absolutely destroyed to the tune of about 12 sausage rolls at unley oval by a blue bagger full forward named Whelan.
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I think that's a bit extreme. He was worst on ground in the north melbourne game and received 1 vote in the B+F in both games previous which put him as 20th best player and 18th best player by the coaches. While he was solid from a fan's perspective in the adelaide game, we just don't know his job that he obviously has failed to do. I was as disappointed as any at the time, it doesn't mean i don't have faith in him but retrospectively judging by the coaches votes he deserved to be dropped.
EDIT: and since you brought up Mitchell earlier to prove a point, he played from from round 8 to 17 then round 20. He polled more than 4 votes in rounds 8, 10,11,12,15 (9 was a bye) and was dropped after 2 poor games (16,17) There has been no coaches favourites as you implied earlier, players have been given chances 2-3 games and dropped if they do not perform.
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Ford Fairlane
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Rod Burton and Trevor McLeod also played full back around then. McLeod was good on Whelan but Fred Phillis flogged him.
I know people go on and on about his goal kicking. And yes its important. But I disagree with the bold bit.
I honestly believe if he starts attacking the ball like a proper tall fwd should and actually learns the relevant leading patterns, he will start to take his marks. Thats what he needs to do first and foremost. Provide a threat as a tall marking forward. For whatever reason he just hasnt been able to do that. More than likely fitness and subsequently confidence in his body hasnt allowed him to play with that 'no fear' attack on the ball, especially in the air.
Once that comes together I'll say his kicking will follow suit. He will never be a technically correct set shot kick. Neither was Tredders. But by christ just about every key defender in the early 00s shat themselves when they were told they had to face a rampaging warmachine in the next week.
Butcher needs his body to hold up for all this preseason and most if not all the season regular. If that happens then its in his hands.
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Then the coaches made a bad call on his performances and they have totally unrealistic expectations of a 20 game developing KPF.
From a purely footballing perspective, there were so many more reasons to keep him than to drop him that I've been through time and time again in this thread.
Dropping him is one of the few mistakes that our terrific coaching panel has made IMO.
chiwigi
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Yes it is, it totally is. Winning is the whole point! Your last sentence is the only one I agree with being potentially true.
Butcher was ordinary against Carlton in Rd 1 too....
- Apr 27, 2002
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Then why do you keep going on about it?
Forzaport
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I like to think that if Butcher genuinely deserved a recall to AFL in 2014, he would have got it. Ken has demonstrated a keen willingness to play developing players if they earn AFL selection.
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The question that has to be asked is what role you want him to play. These days key forwards can be link men without contributing much on the scoreboard themselves. The only problem is we already have people that do that. Schulz leads up the ground. Westhoff plays the role that people are suggesting Butcher should play far better than Butcher will probably ever play it. There are really only so many players you can carry that don't actually hit the scoreboard. To me he has to kick goals and plenty of them to kick someone like a Jake Neade out of the team. And if we are talking about getting a big body just to 'compete' and bring the ball to ground, then surely Shaw and Harvey are just as capable. I would love to see him dominate, but with the current Port team and the younger KPF breathing down his neck, he is really up against it.
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