Competition Can-Am Premiership 2015 - CHAMPIONS INDIANA BLUEBIRDS

[Craegus]

STATEMENT FROM THE BOARD OF PHOENIX FC:

Tonight we received a notification of Phoenix FC being re-aligned into the Oppilas conference. The board is, quite frankly, disappointed with this news, but will continue their participation in the Can-Am Premiership, albeit under protest. The board of Phoenix FC has complied with all directives of the CAP, and helped to ensure that other competitors follow these directives too. The news of this development is quite disheartening, considering we put together a bid that we believe was a) submitted quite early in the process, b) meets all guidelines and regulations as set out by the CAP and c) proudly and beautifully represents the beautiful region of the City of Phoenix, as well as the State of Arizona as a whole. The board has no intention of boycotting the competition, but would urge the CAP to reconsider this decision before the competition begins.

Also, the board would further like to add, with the revealing of the final Eliitti alignment, that we disagree with the admission of multiple clubs from one owner into the Eliitti, which we believes stifles the competition and does not help improve the quality of competition, but rather smothers and quashes it.

I completely understand the disappointment, and it was not an easy thing for me to do, but Andonis1997, Greater Gattsby and myself all believed that moving the clubs selected was the best move for them to give each team a fair chance in the competition, and to stop the potential of clubs going 16-0 or 0-16, this may still happen to clubs, but the aim was to try and even out the competition to give everyone the strongest chance of making the finals.

Without giving out too much information, it was a tight vote for most clubs that were considered, with 2/3 being the most common vote for each team (so one of us did not agree with the others) but majority rule was applied.

And trust me when you see the quality of the designs across the competition you will understand how close it was for some teams to be in either conference.

Also doing this now stops what happened in other competitions with teams being switched mid season.

 

[Craegus]

Why did Rabbitoh21 get moved when you have crow28 with 2 teams, Elscorcho 2 teams, and the other two or three?

Think this is really unfair and not needed.

For two reasons:

1) Both of Crows teams were voted to move conferences.
2) A rule was created when designers were given second teams, that stated no designer could have teams in both conferences to make it impossible for them to both make the final.

 

[rabbitoh21]

I completely understand the disappointment, and it was not an easy thing for me to do, but Andonis1997, Greater Gattsby and myself all believed that moving the clubs selected was the best move for them to give each team a fair chance in the competition, and to stop the potential of clubs going 16-0 or 0-16, this may still happen to clubs, but the aim was to try and even out the competition to give everyone the strongest chance of making the finals.

You always risk going 0-16 when you enter a comp. When there's no prizes and nothing more than forum moves, that's just a dud move, especially when teams added specifically to make up numbers result in teams being moved. Logic says teams that make up the numbers would be in the lower tier, but maybe I'm crazy

 

[Craegus]

You always risk going 0-16 when you enter a comp. When there's no prizes and nothing more than forum moves, that's just a dud move, especially when teams added specifically to make up numbers result in teams being moved. Logic says teams that make up the numbers would be in the lower tier, but maybe I'm crazy

Yes but I am trying to not have what happened in the FIRA and have to change conferences mid season. I wanted to give the competition and each competitor the best chance of having tight votes each round and a close table until the last round.

And yes I could have each designer that has two teams in each conference, but trust me when I say that if that was the case the chance of it being one designer with both their designs in the final would have been very high. Thus why the rule was created.

 

[fumbler]

Totally agree with rabbitoh here craegus, I don't like the fact that he is eager to be involved in the top flight and got cut due to a backup, his first side should get in over someone elses second side.

 

[akkaps]

Rabbitoh, you can take my spot in div.1 , always wanted to be in div.2 from the start.

 

[rabbitoh21]

Yes but I am trying to not have what happened in the FIRA and have to change conferences mid season. I wanted to give the competition and each competitor the best chance of having tight votes each round and a close table until the last round.

This is essentially what has been dubbed the "St. Mark rule", a precedent that is apparently negative on the board.

Totally agree with rabbitoh here craegus, I don't like the fact that he is eager to be involved in the top flight and got cut due to a backup, his first side should get in over someone elses second side.

I was eager to be involved in the Elliiti, but whatever, it's not in my control and it's just internet bull right? I've submitted my updated designs and hopefully I'll take out the Oppilas instead. NBD for me as it's just sit here and watch the votes roll in or not

 

[fumbler]

So does rabbitoh now receive sanctions due to getting his oppilas sets in after the due date?

 

[Craegus]

Ok I am seriously pulling my hair out right now.

I am trying to create a equal and fair competition where I give plenty of notice of what I am proposing to do and have made changes if people have not completely agreed with them or have had better suggestions for everyone who has entered, but apparently what is fine with everyone one minute when I propose it, is not when I actually put it into effect.

So everything is now set, no penalties apply to people who have been asked to make changes, teams in both conferences have the chance of winning the whole competition as it has been from the start, no teams will be moved from where they are now locked in.

Either deal with it, or I am pulling the plug.

 

[rabbitoh21]

So does rabbitoh now receive sanctions due to getting his oppilas sets in after the due date?

I had submitted my Elliiti designs months ago, and Craegus (quite respectfully I might add) explained the situation and requested I replace the logo. I made no other changes to my designs. It's disappointing but I will follow the rulings, like I encouraged others to do last night on a different subject.

 

[The Half Back]

Rabbitoh, you can take my spot in div.1 , always wanted to be in div.2 from the start.

Can this actually be taken into consideration?

And for the record, it shouldn't matter where you are put, if you're good enough to win it form the bottom division then well done. If you believe you should be in the top division then you are allowed to be disappointed but I think craegus has done extremely well with what he's been given. Pull outs, half assed designs, people failing to get it in on time, he, along with other board members, have made decisions based on what they think is best for the competition.

At the end of the day, no one's going to think lesser of Rabbs just because he is in the second division are they? I really look forward to seeing your designs mate and I'm sure we can make up some bullshit 100 year old desert rivalry between Las Vegas and Phoenix!

 

[Andonis1997]

STATEMENT FROM THE BOARD OF PHOENIX FC:

Tonight we received a notification of Phoenix FC being re-aligned into the Oppilas conference. The board is, quite frankly, disappointed with this news, but will continue their participation in the Can-Am Premiership, albeit under protest. The board of Phoenix FC has complied with all directives of the CAP, and helped to ensure that other competitors follow these directives too. The news of this development is quite disheartening, considering we put together a bid that we believe was a) submitted quite early in the process, b) meets all guidelines and regulations as set out by the CAP and c) proudly and beautifully represents the beautiful region of the City of Phoenix, as well as the State of Arizona as a whole. The board has no intention of boycotting the competition, but would urge the CAP to reconsider this decision before the competition begins.

Also, the board would further like to add, with the revealing of the final Eliitti alignment, that we disagree with the admission of multiple clubs from one owner into the Eliitti, which we believes stifles the competition and does not help improve the quality of competition, but rather smothers and quashes it.

I'm sorry, Rabbitoh but teams needed to be switched

 

[Jones2ByrneJones]

If akkaps and rabbitoh want to switch, then, I think that would be sensible.

 

[Craegus]

If akkaps and rabbitoh want to switch, then, I think that would be sensible.

It is not going to happen, Phoenix were voted into Oppilas for a reason, and I am not going to change the votes result.

I understand people are confused, disappointed, and even annoyed, but trust me, when the competition starts and people see the designs, the decisions that have been made will make more sense.

 

[The Cheesecake]

I'll be interested to see which teams were deemed worthy of promotion and regulation.

 

[Bryce_Jersey17]

I'll be interested to see which teams were deemed worthy of promotion and regulation.

Teams moved into Eliitti Conference by independent vote:

San Antonio Armadillos
Wisconsin Cows
Vancouver Sea Eagles

Team to replace Charlotte Stingers (also as reward for sacrificing second team twice for others):

Montreal Canadians

Teams moved into Oppilas Conference by independent vote:

Phoenix FC
Minnesota Elk
Ohio Mound Builders

Team to replace Montreal Canadians:

Newfoundland Labradors Norm Landrover

 

[akkaps]

BJ, I think he means in terms of their designs. My interpretation is that the committee has chosen to swap the teams based on the quality of design and trying to make it a fairer game.

 

[El_Scorcho]

In fairness, I knew I'd be moving teams in FIRA from when I received the designs. I just waited for a few weeks of results to confirm my feelings and make the change on the back of results.

Obviously different people take leaps up in quality at different times and it can make it hard to gauge when awarding places in each division.

 

[The Cheesecake]

I mean the actual designs, obviously.

 

[Craegus]

In fairness, I knew I'd be moving teams in FIRA from when I received the designs. I just waited for a few weeks of results to confirm my feelings and make the change on the back of results.

Obviously different people take leaps up in quality at different times and it can make it hard to gauge when awarding places in each division.

Yeah exactly right, when I saw some of the designs I was exactly like you. That is why I got two others without any bias to confirm or alleviate my concerns so that we could start with as even a comp as possible. It is a risk but hopefully will be proven to be worth it.

 

[Craegus]

IMHO: That's still a slap in the face to those of us who you think would have finished with a bottom 3 win-loss record on something as subjective as a contest determined round-by-round by a random group of roughly 30 people's personal opinions regarding the aesthetics in each week’s matches. Sometimes I vote against people with superior designs simply because I don't care for the look of their choice of club colors. No one can determine my vote but ME, and I’m quite certain that everyone else on here would have liked to have made up their own minds, as well.

How does one determine prior to AFL season who will finish bottom 3 with any degree of accuracy from year-to-year? And the AFL ladder is determined by objective facts, not opinions, so as poorly as people do in predicting the top or bottom of any ladder in any given year, with final outcomes determined by facts, shows just how poorly thought out this idea was in the first place, months after division/conference alignments were announced, while either not noticing or caring whether or not that implementing this idea might look just a wee bit suspicious.

This is for everyone: I do believe, from watching this board since I joined and the problems with comps that have occurred over that period of time, part of the reason why there are so many problems in the first place is that these comps are (in reality) a fun way to waste some time that can be spared and/or learn to develop one's creativity or keep that creativity sharp, but sadly there are some people on this board who take these comps way too seriously, as though it actually means something. It doesn’t. We’re playing make believe with virtual dress up dolls and voting for which ones we like better, or in some instances, the one we dislike the least. I can easily see why people don't care when being threatened with something as "important" as not being able to win the comp or whatever if they don't meet the newest deadline for the latest comp change because some people have lives and keep their priorities straight and no penalty that is truly trivial in life is ever going to matter to people who live in reality.

If the point of these comps is to help kids develop as designers, the other two demoted designers won’t learn anything from this comp if that’s why they entered because they will now never see how they would have fared in the opinions of the masses, and it would still not be the same if they were replaced in their original division because that demotion/promotion event would then be on a lot of people’s minds if they were given the opportunity to make their own minds up about which designs are better than others, as should have happened without incident after the initial conference placements were announced.

Art, in any form, can be judged or graded on technical merit, but most votes here are subjectively cast for personal opinions on aesthetics or other reasons but not because there are any facts involved, especially any that could predict with any degree of certainty who the bottom 3 would be. If you think otherwise, look at the AFL ladder now and predict who the bottom 3 will be after round 23. It's sounds easy, but even halfway through the season in a sport where winners/losers are determined by facts, not opinions, I doubt more than a few people would pick the right three. If things were that cut and dried in an objective competition we could all pick the 8 finals clubs prior to the season, but it's not that easy to predict the future, and more difficult when the results are created by opinions and personal tastes of voters.

As for FIRA, I did like that El_Scorcho waited to let the masses determine whether or not his instincts on the designs he thought were in the wrong divisions were correct, instead of prejudicing a subjective competition by deciding, either alone or with "two others", who the bottom 3 would be without a single vote from the rest of us. Wise move.

I never said that those who were moved would have ended in the bottom 3. Those moved were moved because it was believed that they would be far more competitive or face more competition than where they were (could this have equated to a bottom 3 finish, perhaps, but that was never discussed, it was all about who would benefit from the change), plus we have had people want to pull out of comps because they keep losing, this was another reason I started thinking the switches may have been needed.

Will this be foolproof? No, but the original alignment for some people was an educated guess on my part based on previous designs posted to this board as well as other competition alignments, I then used people's preferences as a deciding factor if I was unsure. When I saw some designs in both conferences (especially with those who have stepped up lately) I started to think that perhaps some of my decisions were slightly off, and so I said on here that I was going to do what I did (which happened to not have a single person {that includes you} post a complaint or concern, if they had I would have reconsidered). So I got two people that are long serving members on this board and who I respect highly to have a look and see if my concerns were warranted. They agreed.

I also did it because not everyone was happy with the switch made mid way through the FIRA so I thought that doing it before the season started would make it less of an issue (I guess I was wrong).

People are going to benefit no matter what conference they are in as you WILL be playing others from both conferences (one of the big differences between this and the FIRA, ANAL and NAFL) throughout the season and get to see how your designs compare.

Perhaps in the future people will have to submit their designs before any decisions are made before leagues/conferences are determined.

 

[Norm Landrover]

I never said that those who were moved would have ended in the bottom 3. Those moved were moved because it was believed that they would be far more competitive or face more competition than where they were (could this have equated to a bottom 3 finish, perhaps, but that was never discussed, it was all about who would benefit from the change), plus we have had people want to pull out of comps because they keep losing, this was another reason I started thinking the switches may have been needed.

Will this be foolproof? No, but the original alignment for some people was an educated guess on my part based on previous designs posted to this board as well as other competition alignments, I then used people's preferences as a deciding factor if I was unsure. When I saw some designs in both conferences (especially with those who have stepped up lately) I started to think that perhaps some of my decisions were slightly off, and so I said on here that I was going to do what I did (which happened to not have a single person {that includes you} post a complaint or concern, if they had I would have reconsidered). So I got two people that are long serving members on this board and who I respect highly to have a look and see if my concerns were warranted. They agreed.

I also did it because not everyone was happy with the switch made mid way through the FIRA so I thought that doing it before the season started would make it less of an issue (I guess I was wrong).

People are going to benefit no matter what conference they are in as you WILL be playing others from both conferences (one of the big differences between this and the FIRA, ANAL and NAFL) throughout the season and get to see how your designs compare.

Perhaps in the future people will have to submit their designs before any decisions are made before leagues/conferences are determined.

Which is why I entered this comp as an Oppilas member - I have been long designing, but not very many over the course of a calendar year. And since probably 2011 (when I found BF not knowing there was a forum at that time), mostly two years before I joined BF and six years after I discovered footy.

 

[demon_spud]

Perhaps if these comps (I say this about all comps) were to help people develop their skills, and allowing people to redesign and submit their 'leveled up' designs would be more beneficial.

If people are seeing their designs not being voted for and are lacking in some way, then giving them a chance to resubmit to compete better would be a smarter option, making the comp more competitive.Rather than demoting them from the beginning, especially those that are eager to participate in these comps(submitting early), and itching to improve from feedback. To use the club metaphor, if a club wants to improve, they change tactics, promote rookies, they don't keep the same structure for the whole year, and even sack coaches. If you're not winning or being competitive you need to have a chance to change.

Personally, I think most of these comps are too rigid in this, when the first round starts and people are already calling it quits instead of thinking, 'right, I need to fix this now' isn't beneficial in improving skills, or developing. Comps are locked for their 3-4 months and no one can do any resubmits, only just sit there and wait until next year or next comp. At least with uni you get an assignment at least 1-3 weeks, to allow you to work harder, and real life, you have to fix your problem straight away.

Developing should be encouraged, not stifled.

And while I haven't run a comp to know from experience, I would think that just updating a database with redos wouldn't be difficult, considering the crap I have to do in real life.

 

[Jones2ByrneJones]

Perhaps if these comps (I say this about all comps) were to help people develop their skills, and allowing people to redesign and submit their 'leveled up' designs would be more beneficial.

If people are seeing their designs not being voted for and are lacking in some way, then giving them a chance to resubmit to compete better would be a smarter option, making the comp more competitive.Rather than demoting them from the beginning, especially those that are eager to participate in these comps(submitting early), and itching to improve from feedback. To use the club metaphor, if a club wants to improve, they change tactics, promote rookies, they don't keep the same structure for the whole year, and even sack coaches. If you're not winning or being competitive you need to have a chance to change.

Personally, I think most of these comps are too rigid in this, when the first round starts and people are already calling it quits instead of thinking, 'right, I need to fix this now' isn't beneficial in improving skills, or developing. Comps are locked for their 3-4 months and no one can do any resubmits, only just sit there and wait until next year or next comp. At least with uni you get an assignment at least 1-3 weeks, to allow you to work harder, and real life, you have to fix your problem straight away.

Developing should be encouraged, not stifled.

And while I haven't run a comp to know from experience, I would think that just updating a database with redos wouldn't be difficult, considering the crap I have to do in real life.

Maybe. I get where you're coming from, but I don't think that's the nature of competitions.

Workshops and portfolios are for developing talent, collecting feedback and improving yourself. That's why we have them.

Competitions, on the other hand, are to show what you've got. Sure, after the fact you can reflect on what you've done and strive to improve yourself for the next season. But not mid-season.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Perhaps if these comps (I say this about all comps) were to help people develop their skills, and allowing people to redesign and submit their 'leveled up' designs would be more beneficial.

If people are seeing their designs not being voted for and are lacking in some way, then giving them a chance to resubmit to compete better would be a smarter option, making the comp more competitive.Rather than demoting them from the beginning, especially those that are eager to participate in these comps(submitting early), and itching to improve from feedback. To use the club metaphor, if a club wants to improve, they change tactics, promote rookies, they don't keep the same structure for the whole year, and even sack coaches. If you're not winning or being competitive you need to have a chance to change.

Personally, I think most of these comps are too rigid in this, when the first round starts and people are already calling it quits instead of thinking, 'right, I need to fix this now' isn't beneficial in improving skills, or developing. Comps are locked for their 3-4 months and no one can do any resubmits, only just sit there and wait until next year or next comp. At least with uni you get an assignment at least 1-3 weeks, to allow you to work harder, and real life, you have to fix your problem straight away.

Developing should be encouraged, not stifled.

And while I haven't run a comp to know from experience, I would think that just updating a database with redos wouldn't be difficult, considering the crap I have to do in real life.

I think that for 2nd tier or reserves competitions, this should absolutely be the go, and IIRC, Maxwell has said this might be happening in the NAFL reserves?

But for 1st division competitions, templates and presentation etc are so important and they deserve to be. lmach is the main driver of this sort of quality. He does something new and unique every time and it gives him an advantage that we all follow.

Letting us have a look at his designs before we enter means we can do our own version of his newest feature and completely take away his competitive advantage, which isn't really fair on him in a competition. The same goes for everyone else. If Bacon Warrior or Dylan or Stormy or E92 have a secret weapon heading into this NAFL season, and i'm allowed to see it before I resubmit my designs, it will completely ruin their advantage and give them no benefit for being innovative.

Innovation is the key to these things continuing to be interesting.