Carlton v Collingwood 2015

[PP34]

I meant outside the Carlton board.

Plenty of footy journos were.

Take off the Collingwood glasses. Would easily slot into your defence.

 

[Mateyman]

Plenty of footy journos were.

Take off the Collingwood glasses. Would easily slot into your defence.

That is not the definition of A-Grader.

 

[PP34]

That is not the definition of A-Grader.

The fact that plenty of people rate him and you, a Collingwood supporter doesn't, speaks volumes.

No point continuing.

 

[Mateyman]

The fact that plenty of people rate him and you, a Collingwood supporter doesn't, speaks volumes.

No point continuing.

Just look earlier in the thread for the amount of people who don't go for Carlton that think Yarron is "A-grade"...
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[Seedsfan]

The fact that plenty of people rate him and you, a Collingwood supporter doesn't, speaks volumes.

No point continuing.

Plenty of people are *******s, Yarren is a solid player but is by no means A Grade

 

[The Blue Baggers]

Yarran is a b+ player .... Elite speed & skills

Just needs to become more consistent to go to an A grader

 

[akneal]

agree take pendelbury and swan out their midfield is v average !!

lol what? Swan isn't even in our best 3 mids anymore

 

[Collingwoodity]

Honestly, this shitfight happens every year that Collingwood legitimately finishes on top of Carlton (pretty much every year nowadays).

Carlton supporters talk up their players (young and old) which in turn leads to Collingwood supporters talking up their players. The problem here for Carlton supporters is that whilst Collingwood have overrated their youngsters for 15 years, Carlton have been performing like a bottom 8 side for the majority of that 15 year period.

It is therefore wrong for Carlton supporters to just expect their players (young and old) to just become better players than the Collingwood players that outperformed the Carlton players for the last 15 years.

 

[beez]

Yarron

Yarren

Yarran

 

[Art Corvelay]

clutching @ straws after pendelbury !!

Delusional.

 

[Happy_Hawker]

Bump. Loss of Waite and Robinson for Carlton and Beams for Collingwood change the debate?

For mine Collingwood will finish above Carlton, though I think that Carton has some decent young-ish KPPs in Rowe, Henderson and Casboult who can still develop further. It will be a close battle, but neither will finish in the 8, as both are turning over their list. Carlton needs some midfield depth, not sure Daisy was the answer, and losing Mitch Robinson will hurt them getting contested ball. Losing Beams really hurts Collingwood, at least getting Greenwood gives them an (inferior) replacement.

Nonetheless, Collingwood has built a nice selection of low draft picks through trading/FA compo. If they come on together, you may see them start challenging in 5 years time.

Oh, and we're looking forward to dominating you both this year.

 

[Gone Critical]

Bump. Loss of Waite and Robinson for Carlton and Beams for Collingwood change the debate?

For mine Collingwood will finish above Carlton, though I think that Carton has some decent young-ish KPPs in Rowe, Henderson and Casboult who can still develop further. It will be a close battle, but neither will finish in the 8, as both are turning over their list. Carlton needs some midfield depth, not sure Daisy was the answer, and losing Mitch Robinson will hurt them getting contested ball. Losing Beams really hurts Collingwood, at least getting Greenwood gives them an (inferior) replacement.

Nonetheless, Collingwood has built a nice selection of low draft picks through trading/FA compo. If they come on together, you may see them start challenging in 5 years time.

Oh, and we're looking forward to dominating you both this year.

5 years would be a little too long. Pendlebury, Cloke, Reid, Swan who make up our A grade talent would be gone by then. Buckley needs the younger types to come on quickly.

 

[Happy_Hawker]

5 years would be a little too long. Pendlebury, Cloke, Reid, Swan who make up our A grade talent would be gone by then. Buckley needs the younger types to come on quickly.

Pendlebury and Reid would still be there in 5 years, wouldn't they (based purely on age)?

True, Cloke and Swan would be gone, have to hope Darcy Moore or comes on and another KPF comes through. Losing Swan will hurt, but should be able to be covered with better quality midfield depth, even if no individual is as good as him.

When do you think Collingwood needs to start challenging again?

 

[Gone Critical]

Pendlebury and Reid would still be there in 5 years, wouldn't they (based purely on age)?

True, Cloke and Swan would be gone, have to hope Darcy Moore or comes on and another KPF comes through. Losing Swan will hurt, but should be able to be covered with better quality midfield depth, even if no individual is as good as him.

When do you think Collingwood needs to start challenging again?

Pendles would be 32 and Reid about to turn 31. Old in footy terms , especially Reid who is already struggling big time with soft tissue injuries. If Pendles was there he would not be elite like now.

Collingwood needs to start challenging while at least some of the 2010-11 players are still near their prime. If we don't it means Bucks has come in and taken over a team that just finished 1st and 2nd and not made anything out of that and done a complete rebuild

When he took over in 2012 it was not with a plan to get rid of all the stars he had at his disposal and build a completely new team to compete again another 8 seasons. He needs to have us contending again within a season or two while Cloke and Pendles are still relevent

 

[Engimal]

Collingwood. I'm not sure if they will make the eight, but they've got a lot of positive signs for the future.

 

[Happy_Hawker]

Pendles would be 32 and Reid about to turn 31. Old in footy terms , especially Reid who is already struggling big time with soft tissue injuries. If Pendles was there he would not be elite like now.

Collingwood needs to start challenging while at least some of the 2010-11 players are still near their prime. If we don't it means Bucks has come in and taken over a team that just finished 1st and 2nd and not made anything out of that and done a complete rebuild

When he took over in 2012 it was not with a plan to get rid of all the stars he had at his disposal and build a completely new team to compete again another 8 seasons. He needs to have us contending again within a season or two while Cloke and Pendles are still relevent

Not sure about that. I think it depends on the player. Hawks Mitchell, Hodge, Burgoyne, Lake etc. are still going very well, and are all early 30s. Even Sewell could've kept playing at almost any other club, but we couldn't fit him into our midfield, so his was a planned retirement. Shows that players can play at that age at the elite level, as long as they are managed to play best when it counts most - in big matches against other contenders and in finals (Hawks older players are a great example of this). No guarantee one way or the other, sure.

I can't see Collingwood challenging for a flag in the next two years. It may not have been the plan, but so much of the list has been turned over that for me the strategy has to be more patient than that - maybe 3 to 4 years, but not 1 or 2. The problem is, in 3 or 4 years teams such as the Bulldogs, Brisbane and GWS should be very good, so competition will be tough. It's a long way ahead, admittedly.

What players do you think will make Collingwood a flag threat in the next 2 years?

 

[Monkey King]

Pendles would be 32 and Reid about to turn 31. Old in footy terms , especially Reid who is already struggling big time with soft tissue injuries. If Pendles was there he would not be elite like now.

Collingwood needs to start challenging while at least some of the 2010-11 players are still near their prime. If we don't it means Bucks has come in and taken over a team that just finished 1st and 2nd and not made anything out of that and done a complete rebuild

Injury permitting, I reckon Pendles is just the type of player who could still produce top footy in his 30's.

You know what I think about Buckley coming in, so I won't go into that, suffice to say it seems to be panning out as you've said above.

I think you guys need to sort out what you really want out of the next few seasons. You've drafted in some top rated talent the last few years and it's likely gonna take another few years before they really shine to the point of taking you back into serious contention. Do you stay the course of building for the future knowing that if development doesn't fast track, you will likely miss the window you're speaking of; or do you chase some trades and free agents to bridge the gap, perhaps at the expense somewhat of continuing the good work your recruitment team have done recently? Personally, I reckon what's done is done with Bucks and you should look to reproduce your recent good work at the draft table, rather than worry about striking while players from 2010-11 are still on the list. If that happens it happens, and if not, you're still going to be well placed for the future.

 

[Gone Critical]

Not sure about that. I think it depends on the player. Hawks Mitchell, Hodge, Burgoyne, Lake etc. are still going very well, and are all early 30s. Even Sewell could've kept playing at almost any other club, but we couldn't fit him into our midfield, so his was a planned retirement. Shows that players can play at that age at the elite level, as long as they are managed to play best when it counts most - in big matches against other contenders and in finals (Hawks older players are a great example of this). No guarantee one way or the other, sure.

I can't see Collingwood challenging for a flag in the next two years. It may not have been the plan, but so much of the list has been turned over that for me the strategy has to be more patient than that - maybe 3 to 4 years, but not 1 or 2. The problem is, in 3 or 4 years teams such as the Bulldogs, Brisbane and GWS should be very good, so competition will be tough. It's a long way ahead, admittedly.

What players do you think will make Collingwood a flag threat in the next 2 years?

Its interesting speculation on how long players last. The top guys get to their early 30's but often the ned comes pretty quickly. Hodge is only just 30 now and speculating he is no certainty to go around again in 2016. Mitchell is a gun and about to play as a 32 yo. Be interesting how long he lasts, he is a player I have loved to watch and is underrated. If Pendles can be as good as him over the journey I will be very happy. Still I suspect he doesnt have too much time of elite output left.

The mids that go well into their 30's best for mine are those with pace or elite running ability. I think of Bartlett, Harvey x2, McLeod, Tuck, Bradley etc. Dosent mean others cant but this group is best placed. Pendles if anything lacks a yard so I see him as more likely to be an early 30's finish to his career. Happy to be wrong

I think Pies at a bit stuck between having enough talent left from 10-11 and getting the young guys up. Been set back with losing Beams who is an elite bridge from the two groups and Scarenberg and Freemans injuries meaning a few of our potential elite youngsters have been set back in development and esp Shaz who long term development is likely to have been set back. Add Shaw Daisy et al gone and we are not wher I had hoped.

What do we need to contend soon? Cloke, Reid, Swan back near their best, Elliott , Fasolo and Sidebottom to step to A grade and some kids to improve quickly. Witts or Grundy or both transitioning to high class mature ruckmen. Needs a fair few things to happen quickly. I dont rate our kids as any better than half a dozen other teams so our point of difference needs to be the 10-11 boys bouncing back

 

[Gone Critical]

Injury permitting, I reckon Pendles is just the type of player who could still produce top footy in his 30's.

You know what I think about Buckley coming in, so I won't go into that, suffice to say it seems to be panning out as you've said above.

I think you guys need to sort out what you really want out of the next few seasons. You've drafted in some top rated talent the last few years and it's likely gonna take another few years before they really shine to the point of taking you back into serious contention. Do you stay the course of building for the future knowing that if development doesn't fast track, you will likely miss the window you're speaking of; or do you chase some trades and free agents to bridge the gap, perhaps at the expense somewhat of continuing the good work your recruitment team have done recently? Personally, I reckon what's done is done with Bucks and you should look to reproduce your recent good work at the draft table, rather than worry about striking while players from 2010-11 are still on the list. If that happens it happens, and if not, you're still going to be well placed for the future.

I am probably not as sold on our kids as you. There are some good ones but few that scream future A grader to me. If we let our current A graders slip away and hope the kids replace them over time we are asking for a lot. Pendles, Swan, Cloke have all been rated super highly at their best. I dont see any immediate replacements for them so would like them and the others of 10-11 that can hang around to be part of the next challenge. Building a list from scatch again requires a lot of luck as well as astute work. I am not sold on the idea of a complete rebuild

 

[Happy_Hawker]

I think Pies are a bit stuck between having enough talent left from 10-11 and getting the young guys up.

That's the essence of my view too.

However, my view is that the gap is too large between these groups, and that the Pieswould be better off going for a longer-term list development strategy based around their current younger players if they want to be in genuine premiership contention.

I honestly don't know how good the young players at the pies will be, so it's definitely a risky strategy, other lists have very good young talent as well. My view is building around existing stars and hoping the young players improve quickly will lead to higher finishes in the short term but unlikely to lead to premiership contention. Either way, the choice of path and the results Buckley gets based on that choice (and whether he gets 'buy in' from players and supporters) will define his tenure.


So, now for a tough question for collingwood (and carlton) supporters. Based on the discussion, who's closer to winning a premiership, collingwood or carlton?

 

[Gone Critical]

That's the essence of my view too.

However, my view is that the gap is too large between these groups, and that the Pieswould be better off going for a longer-term list development strategy based around their current younger players if they want to be in genuine premiership contention.

I honestly don't know how good the young players at the pies will be, so it's definitely a risky strategy, other lists have very good young talent as well. My view is building around existing stars and hoping the young players improve quickly will lead to higher finishes in the short term but unlikely to lead to premiership contention. Either way, the choice of path and the results Buckley gets based on that choice (and whether he gets 'buy in' from players and supporters) will define his tenure.


So, now for a tough question for collingwood (and carlton) supporters. Based on the discussion, who's closer to winning a premiership, collingwood or carlton?

Thats the concern. Still going to a total build and forgoing any immediate success is not my preferred option. That just puts us back in the ruck with everyone. Our list is still better than that for mine but I agree there is a bridge to cross and we will need to make some good choices. We still have 10 flag players on the list and some kids like Elliott, Witts, Fasolo etc who can step up quickly and have shown a fair bit already. The flag players are all still mainly in their prime and we cant give up on them . As players around them improve again even journeyman such as Blair have the ability to step up and be important in a successful team in much the same way as say a Puopolo at Hawthorn

As to the flag question I would favour the Pies short and longer term. Think we have a better group of seniors and while a number of teams could be argued to have equal and better youth I wouldn't count Carlton as one of them. Menzel looks fantastic but apart from him they just have a group that look good without anyone outstanding at this time. They have more work ahead of them than the Pies.

 

[Ambrosia]

Collingwood for me. I agree they are sort of stuck between a full rebuild or chasing success with the remaining players from their previous premiership side.

But a lot can change in 2 years and if Collingwood can rise up the ladder the likes of Pendles, Cloke, Sidebottom, Reid, Brown and Toovey's extensive finals experience could hold them in great stead against sides like the Gold Coast and GWS.

 

[Monkey King]

I am probably not as sold on our kids as you. There are some good ones but few that scream future A grader to me. If we let our current A graders slip away and hope the kids replace them over time we are asking for a lot. Pendles, Swan, Cloke have all been rated super highly at their best. I dont see any immediate replacements for them so would like them and the others of 10-11 that can hang around to be part of the next challenge. Building a list from scatch again requires a lot of luck as well as astute work. I am not sold on the idea of a complete rebuild

It's a fair point. Swan, Pendles and Cloke have all been regarded as being the best, or at least among the very best, in the comp in their positions at one point or another. The chances of drafting 3 young guys who would achieve similar status at the same time aren't great. Perhaps I'm overrating the position you're in with your kids, as it's more theoretical given the junior ratings of guys like Freeman, Sharenburg, Grundy, Kennedy, Moore etc that I think leaves you well placed; coupled with Hine's record in getting talent to your club.

I just don't see your current list being able to seriously content in the next few years and unless your kids development fast-tracks, unless you set about supplementing your current list with trades/free agents in order to make that time frame. Like I said, I don't think it's worth doing that if it's going to take anything away from the future list, but either way, the club needs to chart which course it thinks is best. If I was a member, I suppose I'd at least want to know which course that was.

 

[Falchoon]

Collingwood, they unfathomably dismantled a good team to assemble an average team, but that still puts them in front of Carlton.

 

[jsd09]

I personally see Collingwood around the 9-12 mark , Carlton around 11-14 mark - ultimately both in for tough seasons I believe.