Religion Catholic Church in Victoria linked to 40+ suicides

[melbournemartin]

Not it doesn't.

The Pakistan/India conflict isn't about religion at its core. It's far, far more about lines on a map.

Which is along the lines of why WW2 eventually came about.




That just shows your incredibly naive and anti-religious stance.

I truly doubt you know 1/100th of the work religious people and organisations do out in the community.

It's too easy to focused on the sensationalized negatives than the ground roots positives.

The Pakistan/India comment is highly debatable but I'm losing interest so I won't go there.

Of course the negatives are "sensational". There is nothing minor about cutting a woman's clitoris off. You are blatantly denying or downsizing what are obvious atrocities committed in the name of religion, and they easily trump the community work.

 

[Caesar]

I don't agree with you saying it is "just" that though. Yes there is good and evil in this world and religion is often a convenient way of people pursuing these things but, on top of that, I would say that there is a lot of evil that is "divinely inspired" and would not have existed in the absence of religion.

What does 'divinely inspired' mean? Unless you believe god exists and that he has literally told these people to do these horrible things, then it's just a label you're giving to an impetus that, ultimately, has its roots in the individuals doing it. Why then, if the impetus comes from the individuals, do you think that it would disappear if religion wasn't there? The logical assumption would be that it would just manifest itself through some other avenue.

Even if you were to accept that some of the bad stuff was 'divinely inspired' then the same follows for the good stuff. If rich Europeans in the Middle Ages weren't so preoccupied with buying their way into Heaven then less than a tenth of all the cultural achievements churned out by artists of that era would exist.

This whole argument is stupid. You say without Christianity, we don't have the Crusades. I say without Christianity, we don't have the Renaissance. You say without Islam, we don't have 9/11. I say without Islam, we don't have the Islamic Enlightenment. And round and round in circles we go.

Personally I take the view that human ingenuity is such that we would have accomplished basically the same things, good and bad, without religion as with it. We just would have got there via a slightly different route.

 

[Cheech14]

Of course the negatives are "sensational". There is nothing minor about cutting a woman's clitoris off. You are blatantly denying or downsizing what are obvious atrocities committed in the name of religion, and they easily trump the community work.

Once again you use false examples of "religious" impact. Cutting off a woman's clitoris has it origins in a cultural sense, not a religious one.

There are no religious texts that promote such an act.

Western science actually used it as a method in the 19th century to try and cure lesbianism, masturbation, hysteria, epilepsy, and nervousness.

Which once again links it not to a religious but to a cultural train of thought.

Can you not see how if someone like yourself goes out and declares "female genital mutilation is all because of religion" a mistruth is then spread if someone who no knowledge of the issue believes what you actually say.

By doing that your no better than the religious people who do the same thing.

 

[melbournemartin]

What does 'divinely inspired' mean? Unless you believe god exists and that he has literally told these people to do these horrible things, then it's just a label you're giving to an impetus that, ultimately, has its roots in the individuals doing it. Why then, if the impetus comes from the individuals, do you think that it would disappear if religion wasn't there? The logical assumption would be that it would just manifest itself through some other avenue.

Even if you were to accept that some of the bad stuff was 'divinely inspired' then the same follows for the good stuff. If rich Europeans in the Middle Ages weren't so preoccupied with buying their way into Heaven then less than a tenth of all the cultural achievements churned out by artists of that era would exist.

This whole argument is stupid. You say without Christianity, we don't have the Crusades. I say without Christianity, we don't have the Renaissance. You say without Islam, we don't have 9/11. I say without Islam, we don't have the Islamic Enlightenment. And round and round in circles we go.

Personally I take the view that human ingenuity is such that we would have accomplished basically the same things, good and bad, without religion as with it. We just would have got there via a slightly different route.

I don't think it's stupid nor do I think that religion has not been a huge benefit in many areas.

I obviously doubt that any instructions actually came from God since I doubt his existence, and I would fully agree that religion is a man-made construct. Despite this, religion is a strong delusion. I don't think there is a lot of difference between someone who doing something because he strongly believes in a myth, compared with someone who does something because he strongly believes in a truth. If the beliefs are strong enough I don't think it matters if the instructions actually came from God or not.

 

[melbournemartin]

Once again you use false examples of "religious" impact. Cutting off a woman's clitoris has it origins in a cultural sense, not a religious one.

Again, I never said that Islam created the practice or or is the only exponent of it. You're attempts to put words in my mouth make it very frustrating to discuss this interesting topic with you and I doubt I'll continue much further, particularly since I have have a much more important heaven vs hell clash to attend tonight.

Despite whatever the origins may be, it is one of the many prevailing disgusting acts in some Islamic culture. Even if it were a practice that existed before Islam came along, which I have no doubt that it was, the general treatment of women in Islam-dominated countries is such that this brutality could prosper. What Caesar said is right, you could counter with something good Islam does and I wouldn't dismiss it at all, but that doesn't negate the bad things.

 

[Caesar]

I don't think it's stupid nor do I think that religion has not been a huge benefit in many areas.

I obviously doubt that any instructions actually came from God since I doubt his existence, and I would fully agree that religion is a man-made construct. Despite this, religion is a strong delusion. I don't think there is a lot of difference between someone who doing something because he strongly believes in a myth, compared with someone who does something because he strongly believes in a truth. If the beliefs are strong enough I don't think it matters if the instructions actually came from God or not.

That doesn't actually address anything that I said.

 

[melbournemartin]

That doesn't actually address anything that I've said.

You said that religious atrocities are caused by things that are ultimately human, if you take the view that there is no God.

I say that if you believe so deeply in something, no matter how mythical it is, it's as good as if it did actually exist. I am essentially saying that while religion may be a human construct, the way it acts is negligibly different to how it would if it were actually divinely created. This empowers people to do horrible things that I do not think they would have thought of doing otherwise.

I therefore cannot draw the same logical assumption that this evil impetus would manifest itself in forms other than religion in the absence of religion.

You may not agree with me, but that's my response.

 

[Caesar]

Why would they have not thought of doing them otherwise? God didn't tell them to do it, because God doesn't exist. Therefore they are acting of their own volition.

Why you think that would suddenly change if religion didn't exist I have no idea. It would be more logical to think that some other deluded dedication to some other set of nebulous ideals would take its place, with much the same result.

 

[Cheech14]

It can also then be asked that without religion would many people who are constrained from doing wrong due to their religious beliefs/guilt then be freed up to commit such things with none of that hanging over them?

 

[fishardansin]

Science is the study of the natural world. How on earth can you critisise that? Sure people can do stupid things with tools created with science, however, clearly science does far more good than bad. Take penicillin, communications and transport.

In fact science has done a lot to advance our moral code. If we'd have left it up to religion to tell us what is right and wrong we'd still be able to vindicate slavery and racism, assume women were less intelligent than women and still carry on like the world was created by god for us to do with it as we pleased. Science has shown us with genome mapping that all humans are equal in most respects (of course to which family and where one is born has a massive say in how you life will turn out), that women are capable of everything a man is intellectually (even if they are a little more irrational) and that the world is fragile and we need to tread carefully upon it.

Sure if you want to take the ramblings of stone age jews, bronze age jews and iron age arabs as the true revelations of the universe given to us from the creator of the universe then good luck to you. However, please keep them far from govt or any school. Also I will not rest until every religious group is taxed exactly the same as the rest of us!

 

[fishardansin]

It can also then be asked that without religion would many people who are constrained from doing wrong due to their religious beliefs/guilt then be freed up to commit such things with none of that hanging over them?

Lets hope humanity is above that. I also think that you'll find that the population of jail is more religious than the general populace.

 

[R00StaR]

So we have these continued attacks on Christianity for past deeds, what atrocities are we expecting from them these days? Some of the reading ive done suggests that Christianity can be thanked for laying the foundations for freedoms we enjoy today. You know the whole all people are equal thing, a rather radial ideology back in the day as i understand it.

Some other religions however, well it doesnt look too flash imo. Id rate Iran right up there as one of if the biggest threats in the world today. They may not hit the button first but once they have nukes (soon, if not already) they'll agitate until someone does. After all its their destiny/ mission or whatever to rid the world Israel and America.

Oh these guys and their Muslim Brotherhood mates apparently believe they can usher in their Messiah with an apocalyptic event, then he'll kills or converts all non believers.

Fun times ahead.

 

[Pie eyed]

So we have these continued attacks on Christianity for past deeds, what atrocities are we expecting from them these days? Some of the reading ive done suggests that Christianity can be thanked for laying the foundations for freedoms we enjoy today. You know the whole all people are equal thing, a rather radial ideology back in the day as i understand it.

Some other religions however, well it doesnt look too flash imo. Id rate Iran right up there as one of if the biggest threats in the world today. They may not hit the button first but once they have nukes (soon, if not already) they'll agitate until someone does. After all its their destiny/ mission or whatever to rid the world Israel and America.

Oh these guys and their Muslim Brotherhood mates apparently believe they can usher in their Messiah with an apocalyptic event, then he'll kills or converts all non believers.

Fun times ahead.

I so enjoyed the irony of your first claims "Christianity can be thanked for laying the foundations for freedoms we enjoy today" juxtaposed by your balanced and in no way at all biased but equally erroneous "Oh these guys and their Muslim Brotherhood mates apparently believe they can usher in their Messiah with an apocalyptic event, then he'll kills or converts all non believers."

I guffaw at you with gusto.

Could not Islam's own version of the Inquisition also result in even greater freedoms tomorrow, just like those that a 1000 years of murder, repression and terror delivered us via the Christian Church?

What you are suggesting is that by not allowing yet another cult to beat and torture some good sense into us we may be depriving ourselves of even greater benefits.


Either that or everything your wrote is horseshit.

The freedoms we have now are despite the Church. Any Church.

 

[R00StaR]

Your welcome to your views

I posted this in another thread : A review of How Christianity Changed the World. By Alvin Schmidt (American professor of sociology)

The American professor of sociology has assembled evidence from various quarters to demonstrate what a powerful influence Christianity has had on Western Civilization. In every area, be it law, government, economics, the fine arts, science, education or health care, the Christian faith has contributed enormously to the overall well-being of mankind.

The bottom line, as Schmidt notes, is that if Jesus Christ had never been born, to speak of Western civilisation would be incomprehensible.

The End-Time is Here : By Reza Kahlili

REZA KAHLILI is the pseudonym of a former Iranian Revolutionary Guard member who worked undercover as a CIA agent for several years in the ‘80s and ‘90s. Author of A Time to Betray

“In light of the realization of the divine promise by almighty God, the Zionists and the Great Satan (America) will soon be defeated,” Ayatollah Khamenei, the Iranian supreme leader, is warning.

Khamenei, speaking to hundreds of youths from more than 70 countries attending a world conference on the Arab Spring just days ago, told a cheering crowd in Tehran that “Allah’s promises will be delivered and Islam will be victorious.”

Khamenei has been heard to say that the coming of the last Islamic Messiah, the Shiites’ 12th Imam Mahdi, is near and that specific actions need to be taken to protect the Islamic regime for upcoming events.

Mahdi, according to Shiite belief, will reappear at the time of Armageddon.

As revealed last year, the Iranian secret documentary “The Coming is Upon Us” clearly indicates that the radicals ruling Iran believe the destruction of Israel will trigger the coming of last Islamic Messiah.

and the Muslim Brotherhood, lol i wont even bother

You want to feel their freedom why not head over there.

Reza Kahlili also speaks in

Rumors of War III and i think RoW 1 and 2.
[YOUTUBE]wbBWju8HPG4[/YOUTUBE]

 

[little graham]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-...d-abuse-to-start-hearings-in-ballarat/6477132

Last month the Federal Government declined to commit to a national single redress scheme for victims of abuse, saying it would be too costly and involve significant time and resources.The royal commission had estimated such a scheme would cost more than $4 billion and have at least 65,000 people claiming. The Government's decision angered Ballarat abuse victim Andrew Collins.

But survivors like Mr Blenkiron cling to the hope the Government will change its mind and things will turn a corner in Ballarat.
"There is a lot of dark and a lot of horrific stuff that is making people still kill themselves," he said."We're at the ashes, and the phoenix has to rise from the ashes. Otherwise it's all just a waste of time and a waste of breath

 

[Lebbo73]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-...d-abuse-to-start-hearings-in-ballarat/6477132

This is a difficult issue to comment on but why should taxpayers have to fund this redress?

 

[little graham]

This is a difficult issue to comment on but why should taxpayers have to fund this redress?

What is governments roll?

 

[blackcat]

What is governments roll?

to maintain social etiquette, norms, grammar and syntax, plus skilts, spelling and Poe's law. see: Singapore. v clean streets. quite the apogee of the Western World. No paradox its an oriental tiger and trading bastion.

 

[blackcat]

over forty. atleast. that they know of. how could the church possibly withstand this self-immolation?

 

[Lebbo73]

What is governments roll?

Protect our national sovereignty. Provide basic services and infrastructure. Secure our water and food supplies.

They are not responsible for:
curing diseases
building toll roads
building an NBN
funding sport
bailing out private corporations

They can be responsible for:
providing limited laws and regulations
basic policing
minimal taxation

 

[little graham]

to maintain social etiquette, norms, grammar and syntax, plus skilts, spelling and Poe's law. see: Singapore. v clean streets. quite the apogee of the Western World. No paradox its an oriental tiger and trading bastion.

They're responsible for justice/law and order. By refusing to help the victims of these crimes, by doing nothing fully aware that these victims are topping themselves because they're being ignored, the gov are complicit in the cover up/murder. Don't ever forget that.

We spent millions on mercy for Chan but we say nothing about the deaths of innocent adults raped as children.

 

[blackcat]

They're responsible for justice/law and order. By refusing to help the victims of these crimes, by doing nothing fully aware that these victims are topping themselves because they're being ignored, the gov are complicit in the cover up/murder. Don't ever forget that.

We spent millions on mercy for Chan but we say nothing about the deaths of innocent adults raped as children.

its two things on culpability.

its institutional culpability

its individual.

as you said, its murder, just cos the law cannot recognise it, as a humanist, they murdered these individuals. stuff the emotive language like "kids" and get all bravehearts Hetyy Highhorse Johnson, I dont give a $hit about kids, I give a s**t about humans and individuals.

 

[Gus Poyet]

What is governments roll?

The clue is in the first 6 letters of the word Government...

 

[blackcat]

The clue is in the first 6 letters of the word Government...

how about d e m a g o g y

 

[Gus Poyet]

how about d e m a g o g y

Thats the modern Austrlian version. Gold logies style politics.