Cats secure Frawley and are moving in on Dangerfield

[Calcium Man]

Lost me the second last line. There is no way Guthrie is getting traded. NO WAY . If this whole story rest on his name , it will fall over. Is there a player or players that Geelong would trade that also would meet Melbs idea for a early pick? I dont know but I doubt it.

Guthrie was just an example off the top of my head.

Melbourne will want to come out of it with a best 22 player who can grow with the team but also provides some leadership and direction, although those types don't grow on trees.

 

[Turbocat]

Guthrie was just an example off the top of my head.

Melbourne will want to come out of it with a best 22 player who can grow with the team but also provides some leadership and direction, although those types don't grow on trees.

Sounds like years ago , when Moloney was on the no trade list but when the crunch happened....... Best 2 is probably easier to define in Syd , we have played a lot of players this year but not once have we had our best 22 available.

 

[TheKITC]

Give me an example where this has occurred. You're not the only one claiming that this has already happened, and I've already asked several times for an example so now it's your turn.

Give me an example of this happening.

I'm not pretending to get involved in what has previously been posted in this thread. You said it would be 'fanciful' for clubs to get together and 'manipulate' the system based on the threat of 'penalties' from the AFL which is completely untrue, simple and exact examples already have been used, let alone the myriad of other examples...

 

[Demonheart]

I'm not pretending to get involved in what has previously been posted in this thread. You said it would be 'fanciful' for clubs to get together and 'manipulate' the system based on the threat of 'penalties' from the AFL which is completely untrue, simple and exact examples already have been used, let alone the myriad of other examples...

I said it would be fanciful for clubs to get away with this example

A simple 'I have nothing' would have been easier and quicker.

 

[TheKITC]

I said it would be fanciful for clubs to get away with this example

A simple 'I have nothing' would have been easier and quicker.

Ok

 

[Footy Mad]

Lost me the second last line. There is no way Guthrie is getting traded. NO WAY . If this whole story rest on his name , it will fall over. Is there a player or players that Geelong would trade that also would meet Melbs idea for a early pick? I dont know but I doubt it.

Dont think we will know the names until we get much closer to trade week. "names" are always just names 5 weeks out from season end - much can change in those weeks.

 

[Footy Mad]

Outstanding thread. Five stars. Gets special commendation for the repeated use by the OP of the phrase "hold on big boy", repeated cutting and pasting of the same gumph in at least three places and the resort to wholesale sledging of the victim club's supporters when challenged.

If we indulge this fevered delusion, if I were Melbourne, I'd take pick two and 20.

Point taken.

Now you would take pick 2& 20. What for emotional reasons like others or is there some sort of rational . Do you accept AFL football is a brutal ruthless sport?

 

[DAWESOME!!]

Well first, I don't get why it's such a lock that Frawley is going to Geelong regardless of what they offer to pay him. If Geelong try to hold the Dees over a barrel by saying "we'll only pay him enough to get you pick 20 as compo", what's to stop the Hawks or Sydney or Freo or Collingwood offering him significantly more money and snaffling him. If Frawley just wants to play in a strong team with a great culture, can't see why he'd put Geelong that far ahead of Hawthorn or Sydney. So I think Geelong need to be matching what others would pay to be a lock on getting him. I don't think their power in this deal is as great as you're saying.

If the choice is to effectively trade your Frawley compo pick and then downgrade your first pick from 2 to 3 in exchange for Taylor Hunt and Blicvas, that is just about fair. I can see a club offering pick 20 for Blicvas and I guess some people would take a one pick demotion to get another fringe 22 player - which is all I think Hunt is.

I think the other factor Geelong would need to offer is a guarantee to Melbourne not to take Melbourne's chosen player at 2. I think the Dees would want to take Petrecca. If the Cats guaranteed to leave him on the table for the Dees to get at three, they might consider it.

But, if I was the Dees, I don't know whether I'd rather take my pick 20 and try and use it to get another player besides Blicvas and just keep pick 2 and not have to rely on an under the table deal to tamper with the draft with Geelong.

Even bigger but, why wouldn't I try and steer Frawley into going to Hawthorn or Sydney or anyone else who is willing to pay enough to get me the pick 3, and then take Petrecca and Wright or whoever. Hawks have a greater need for Frawley than Geelong in any case.

 

[Demonheart]

Ok

So you accept this has never occurred before.

Great, so how easier that was

 

[Footy Mad]

Well first, I don't get why it's such a lock that Frawley is going to Geelong regardless of what they offer to pay him. If Geelong try to hold the Dees over a barrel by saying "we'll only pay him enough to get you pick 20 as compo", what's to stop the Hawks or Sydney or Freo or Collingwood offering him significantly more money and snaffling him. If Frawley just wants to play in a strong team with a great culture, can't see why he'd put Geelong that far ahead of Hawthorn or Sydney. So I think Geelong need to be matching what others would pay to be a lock on getting him. I don't think their power in this deal is as great as you're saying.

If the choice is to effectively trade your Frawley compo pick and then downgrade your first pick from 2 to 3 in exchange for Taylor Hunt and Blicvas, that is just about fair. I can see a club offering pick 20 for Blicvas and I guess some people would take a one pick demotion to get another fringe 22 player - which is all I think Hunt is.

I think the other factor Geelong would need to offer is a guarantee to Melbourne not to take Melbourne's chosen player at 2. I think the Dees would want to take Petrecca. If the Cats guaranteed to leave him on the table for the Dees to get at three, they might consider it.

But, if I was the Dees, I don't know whether I'd rather take my pick 20 and try and use it to get another player besides Blicvas and just keep pick 2 and not have to rely on an under the table deal to tamper with the draft with Geelong.

Even bigger but, why wouldn't I try and steer Frawley into going to Hawthorn or Sydney or anyone else who is willing to pay enough to get me the pick 3, and then take Petrecca and Wright or whoever. Hawks have a greater need for Frawley than Geelong in any case.

Thank you. But maybe you are missing a few points I made earlier.

1/ Think the feeling was its not all about the money. Country boy close to home.

2/ Nobody is holding anybody over a "barrell".

3/ Matching - interesting concept. When a player nominates a team, other clubs 99% of the time step aside. Clubs dont want to pay $1.00 for players that dont want to be there. Interesting did you last year "match" the better deals on the table for Taylor Adams ( ironically also from Demons ) Answer no he wanted to play exclusively for you and refused to talk to others.

4/ Its not out of the question as I said the Cats could accept the compo pick they generated. Please note I did not mention the number of the pick. What are the Demons actually trading?

Put it to you this way would you trade ( only players of example ) Would you trade Hunt & Blicavs for compo pick if it was a band 2 pick? Should be a pretty simple answer. But who has the control to make it a band 1 pick?

Is Frawley worth a band 1 pick? Think we all agree on the answer to that.

5/ Now on steering - We live in an era of FA clubs dont have the control players do.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Is 500k a year in the first round compo zone?

 

[Footy Mad]

Is 500k a year in the first round compo zone?

Compo picks are calculated in bands. The rules are quite specific age, $$$$ size of contract plus length of contract. The actually pick number is determined by where a team finishes.

The system is flawed .... Buddy gets Hawthorn pick 19 yet Frawley could, possibly, might get MFC pick 3!!!!! Wonder what the AFL think of that? So pick 19 is worth a ... nine-year $10 million contract.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Compo picks are calculated in bands. The rules are quite specific age, $$$$ size of contract plus length of contract. The actually pick number is determined by where a team finishes.

The system is flawed .... Buddy gets Hawthorn pick 19 yet Frawley could, possibly, might get MFC pick 3!!!!! Wonder what the AFL think of that?

Yeah I know all that. Was just wondering if 500k a year outs Frawley in the "straight after first pick" band or the "end of first round" band.

 

[Footy Mad]

Yeah I know all that. Was just wondering if 500k a year outs Frawley in the "straight after first pick" band or the "end of first round" band.

Depends on the length of the contract.

 

[DAWESOME!!]

Thank you. But maybe you are missing a few points I made earlier.

1/ Think the feeling was its not all about the money. Country boy close to home.

2/ Nobody is holding anybody over a "barrell".

3/ Matching - interesting concept. When a player nominates a team, other clubs 99% of the time step aside. Clubs dont want to pay $1.00 for players that dont want to be there. Interesting did you last year "match" the better deals on the table for Taylor Adams ( ironically also from Demons ) Answer no he wanted to play exclusively for you and refused to talk to others.

4/ Its not out of the question as I said the Cats could accept the compo pick they generated. Please note I did not mention the number of the pick. What are the Demons actually trading?

Put it to you this way would you trade ( only players of example ) Would you trade Hunt & Blicavs for compo pick if it was a band 2 pick? Should be a pretty simple answer. But who has the control to make it a band 1 pick?

Is Frawley worth a band 1 pick? Think we all agree on the answer to that.

5/ Now on steering - We live in an era of FA clubs dont have the control players do.

But in terms of matching/steering, where has this idea come from that Frawley is set on Geelong come from? Cos he's a Western Districts (I think?) boy?

I don't think the "come home" factor can be that big an issue when he lives and plays in Melbourne already. Would think money would be the biggest factor along with playing in a competitive team. So again, I don't see why he wouldn't be equally receptive to offers from Geelong and the Hawks. Maybe Geelong have a slight edge, but not an edge that would be worth an extra 20k a year, let alone an extra 100k. So I still think the Cats are going have to offer a pretty good financial package.

The reference to Geelong trying to screw Melbourne would be in terms of saying "trade us your top pick and we'll pay market value for Frawley and you get your proper compensation, otherwise we pay unders and you get screwed". As I said above, I doubt they are actually in a position to do that, but if they did, that's screwing someone.

On clubs steering a FA, I agree the power is all with the player, but unless the relationship has completely broken down, players will often try to avoid their old club getting screwed in the process. Player managers need to be able to deal with clubs as well going forward.

The analogy to Taylor Adams is a bit wrong I think. The choice by Adams to come to Collingwood was about the money being good enough, and coming into a team that could be seen as going to be competitive in the next few years, which Melbourne couldn't offer. Add in that Adams had a pre-existing relationship with Buckley and his decision wasn't hard. The choice between Geelong and Hawthorn isn't so clear cut. Hawks are actually the better team. He'd been higher up the pecking order in terms of his favoured position at Hawthorn. Both clubs are well run and have a good culture. So money is very much going to be a big part of it.

 

[Demonheart]

Yeah I know all that. Was just wondering if 500k a year outs Frawley in the "straight after first pick" band or the "end of first round" band.

No, I think it would most likely be the 2nd or 3rd band. From memory we got the pick after our 2nd rounder for Sylvia and he was on just below that amount with Freo. That would be a more realistic compensation for Frawley.

 

[Rummy]

Compo picks are calculated in bands. The rules are quite specific age, $$$$ size of contract plus length of contract. The actually pick number is determined by where a team finishes.

The system is flawed .... Buddy gets Hawthorn pick 19 yet Frawley could, possibly, might get MFC pick 3!!!!! Wonder what the AFL think of that? So pick 19 is worth a ... nine-year $10 million contract.

Yep, this is why the AFL need to untie compensation picks from being immediately after that clubs pick in that particular draft round, to instead be either “mid round” after all the non-finals teams (bottom 10 clubs) have their pick, and then “end of a draft round” pick

If multiple clubs get say a “end of first round pick”, then the club that finished lower on the ladder would pick first. It’s that easy! It both reduces a clubs incentive from tanking to maximise any potential draft pick compensation, and makes it fairer, as Melbourne would only get say pick 11 for Frawley (if he’s considered a ‘mid first round’ pick as opposed to ‘end of first round’) and Hawthorn would have also received pick 11 for Buddy back in that year (being a ‘mid first round’ draft pick, as opposed to what they did get, pick 19

 

[Footy Mad]

But in terms of matching/steering, where has this idea come from that Frawley is set on Geelong come from? Cos he's a Western Districts (I think?) boy?

I don't think the "come home" factor can be that big an issue when he lives and plays in Melbourne already. Would think money would be the biggest factor along with playing in a competitive team. So again, I don't see why he wouldn't be equally receptive to offers from Geelong and the Hawks. Maybe Geelong have a slight edge, but not an edge that would be worth an extra 20k a year, let alone an extra 100k. So I still think the Cats are going have to offer a pretty good financial package.

The reference to Geelong trying to screw Melbourne would be in terms of saying "trade us your top pick and we'll pay market value for Frawley and you get your proper compensation, otherwise we pay unders and you get screwed". As I said above, I doubt they are actually in a position to do that, but if they did, that's screwing someone.

On clubs steering a FA, I agree the power is all with the player, but unless the relationship has completely broken down, players will often try to avoid their old club getting screwed in the process. Player managers need to be able to deal with clubs as well going forward.

The analogy to Taylor Adams is a bit wrong I think. The choice by Adams to come to Collingwood was about the money being good enough, and coming into a team that could be seen as going to be competitive in the next few years, which Melbourne couldn't offer. Add in that Adams had a pre-existing relationship with Buckley and his decision wasn't hard. The choice between Geelong and Hawthorn isn't so clear cut. Hawks are actually the better team. He'd been higher up the pecking order in terms of his favoured position at Hawthorn. Both clubs are well run and have a good culture. So money is very much going to be a big part of it.

Nice answer.

Ok lets agree to disagree on your money point. Think I also gave a few other points ie culture, and not wishing to upset our Demon mates but you have to face reality supporter attitudes ( hostile, abusive, etc ) in the last 5 weeks!, finals, plus Geelong have a long tradition of prolonging AFL football careers. But lets move over that.

What are Demons actually trading?

 

[Footy Mad]

Yep, this is why the AFL need to untie compensation picks from being immediately after that clubs pick in that particular draft round, to instead be either “mid round” after all the non-finals teams (bottom 10 clubs) have their pick, and then “end of a draft round” pick

If multiple clubs get say a “end of first round pick”, then the club that finished lower on the ladder would pick first. It’s that easy! It both reduces a clubs incentive from tanking to maximise any potential draft pick compensation, and makes it fairer, as Melbourne would only get say pick 11 for Frawley (if he’s considered a ‘mid first round’ pick as opposed to ‘end of first round’) and Hawthorn would have also received pick 11 for Buddy back in that year (being a ‘mid first round’ draft pick, as opposed to what they did get, pick 19

My tip is they will get rid of them altogether.

 

[Jordie_tackles]

No, I think it would most likely be the 2nd or 3rd band. From memory we got the pick after our 2nd rounder for Sylvia and he was on just below that amount with Freo. That would be a more realistic compensation for Frawley.

I would think it is better than our Sylvia compo, one Sylvia isn't on 5 years and two I doubt he is even on 400k a year

 

[Guy Threepwood]

1/ Think the feeling was its not all about the money. Country boy close to home.

Yeah, there's a huge difference getting to Ballarat from Geelong and Melbourne. What would it be, 10 minutes?

 

[felsty]

Yep, this is why the AFL need to untie compensation picks from being immediately after that clubs pick in that particular draft round, to instead be either “mid round” after all the non-finals teams (bottom 10 clubs) have their pick, and then “end of a draft round” pick

If multiple clubs get say a “end of first round pick”, then the club that finished lower on the ladder would pick first. It’s that easy! It both reduces a clubs incentive from tanking to maximise any potential draft pick compensation, and makes it fairer, as Melbourne would only get say pick 11 for Frawley (if he’s considered a ‘mid first round’ pick as opposed to ‘end of first round’) and Hawthorn would have also received pick 11 for Buddy back in that year (being a ‘mid first round’ draft pick, as opposed to what they did get, pick 19

Do you guys not think that this screams equalisation? the fact that lower teams would get a higher pick for a star that leaves via FA sounds about right to me

 

[Theo X]

I would think it is better than our Sylvia compo, one Sylvia isn't on 5 years and two I doubt he is even on 400k a year

He also wasn't 25 years old

 

[Footy Mad]

I would think it is better than our Sylvia compo, one Sylvia isn't on 5 years and two I doubt he is even on 400k a year

+

 

[Footy Mad]

Do you guys not think that this screams equalisation? the fact that lower teams would get a higher pick for a star that leaves via FA sounds about right to me

No it sounds like a way for the AFL to manipulate the system.