Census will allow Australians to identify as 'other' for both sex and gender

[Demonic Ascent]

One or both of her special needs kids would have required one on one help at some point. That would have cost extra for another educator. That money has to have come from somewhere.

That is a completely separate argument - you started off talking about hypocrisy because her kids required special assistance but she was denying others the right to the special assistance. I stated that her kids special assistance didn't infringe on the rights of anyone else whereas the rights of someone to use a toilet not designed for them did. Now you have turned it into a financial argument which, really, is extremely petty.

Oh really?

Yep, as I said that's my belief. I'm not going to impose my belief on others, they are still free to live their lives the way they want and I'll defend their right to do so. But that doesn't mean that I can be forced to think a certain way just because someone else doesn't like it.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

I also think it opens up a can of worms - what requirement is there for a male student to be able to use the female toilets/bathrooms/changerooms? Do they need evidence from a doctor or is their word enough? If this happened when I was in school I know there would have been a multitude of males lining up to say they had to use the girls changerooms - probably would have resulted in the girls saying they had to use the boys changerooms and everyone just switching sides

 

[Power Raid]

So by extension that should make people's marriage void if it isn't between a man and a women.

Perhaps it's time to change the marriage act!

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Broadmoor is male only, only for the most aggressive psychiatric patients. Why would you put a violent male born criminal among women prisoners?

If brains are gendered then how is gender a social construct?

Keep the subject in solitary like they did in this case: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-prison-women-jail-solitary-safe-inmates.html

Gender isn't a social construct. Some behaviors that have become synonymous with a gender are though.

 

[coerced]

Keep the subject in solitary like they did in this case: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-prison-women-jail-solitary-safe-inmates.html

Solitary is quite a harsh punishment.

Gender isn't a social construct. Some behaviors that have become synonymous with a gender are though.

Which behaviours?

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Which behaviours?

A lot of clothing behaviors, many cultures had dresses/skirts for men, the kilt, tunics, chiton, kimono. High heels originated from Persian horseback riders but in western culture were made fashionable by French male aristocrats. Stylistically we were in constant flux for the first five and half thousand years of civilization until the Victorian morality came to the fore, and we've basically stayed the same since.

Career choices, etiquette, interests all vary.

 

[DemonTim]

There is far too many people here who have done no background research on gender, and thus just come off sounding like bigoted morons

 

[Gough]

It took years, and years for gay people to gain acceptance in society, we're not completely there yet, but almost. In the last few years we've seem an increasing visibility of trans people, hopefully this visibility will lead to greater understanding, and empathy for trans people, and we can evolve attitudes as we did with gay people.

 

[EagleShore]

However I also believe that people are free to live their lives however they want if it makes them happy so long as their freedom does not impose on the freedom of others. In this case, their freedom to use the opposite genders bathrooms is countered by the other students freedom to use their own bathrooms without having to worry about having someone from the opposite gender in there.

I know how I would react to this and what I would tell my kids if I were one of the students parents.

It is a complex biopsychosocial issue this one. What would you tell your child if he or she was transgender? As much as Cartman abused the issue to get his own toilet in that South Park episode, I think that would be the solution, right? To have a third toilet, or even a fourth (one for MtF and one for FtM).

The other highlighted part is almost the crux of this argument. Our freedoms should not impose on the freedoms of others. The complexity lies within the specific definition of those freedoms. Though I'm cognizant of avoiding false equivalence here, I will attempt to illustrate this point using the paradigm of sexuality:
Adult change rooms - are straight men entitled to change at a gym in a room where they will not possibly be ogled by gay men? Or is the social responsibility on the gay men to not make other people uncomfortable by being obnoxious gawkers? I mean, heck, even straight guys give a quick look for the sake of curiosity, so surely a gay bloke can have a fleeting perv and no one is harmed. It would be the responsibility of the adults involved in this situation to act in a manner commensurate with social cohesion and avoiding conflict. If, however, a gay man does have a fleeting look of the guy over the room and that guy takes offence and punches him, who is at fault? Who is wrong? How could it be avoided?

This situation is different as it involves toilets at a school for children. But I can see that, for adults, people should be able to modulate their behaviour in such a way as that they cause no harm to others. Should we have Ally McBeal style unisex toilets for all? Or perhaps available as an option?

I think the option for people (children and adults) to use a unisex or trans-friendly toilet/change room is the best outcome in order to balance the needs and freedoms of the minority while not infringing upon the needs and freedoms of the majority.

As for schools openly telling children they can wear what they want, so be it. There was a bloke in my highschool (in the 90's) who wore goth stuff and sometimes this included a long black skirt (not a female outfit per se, but it was "gender bending"). He was ridiculed a bit. I think he and others like him, including trans children, shouldn't be ridiculed. But to have complex adult-level discussions with children about these issues is asking for more problems.

Instead, schools should actively promote respect and harmony for all people, and all their possible differences, without necessarily defining all those differences. Why go into adult-level analysis with children when it most likely complicates things? Children should be nurtured in a manner that enables them to form their own identity over time, rather than be told the shape and colour of all those boxes that they could put themselves in. Unfortunately, we live in a world where we as adults try to reduce things into categories for simplicity. Reductionism is best avoided when dealing with complex biopsychosocial issues.

 

[1061]

Opening a link to Marriage equality.

Say a member of a "normal" male/female married couple finds they need to follow the transgender path and changes gender but they stay together. Once that person changes all their Identity paperwork they must then get a divorce as they'll be a same sex couple.

 

[Power Raid]

Opening a link to Marriage equality.

Say a member of a "normal" male/female married couple finds they need to follow the transgender path and changes gender but they stay together. Once that person changes all their Identity paperwork they must then get a divorce as they'll be a same sex couple.

it is a ridiculous position our nation has

I wish we would fix this immediately

 

[Docker Alyssa]

Keep the subject in solitary like they did in this case: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-prison-women-jail-solitary-safe-inmates.html

Gender isn't a social construct. Some behaviors that have become synonymous with a gender are though.

So, because of bigotry, piggy backing on the "legitimacy" of the rare threat of 'male' infiltration, you put a woman who should have all the same rights afforded to her of the other cis gender women, in solitary?

That's so horrid. Wow.

I mean... provided shes transitioning to the stage of having her gender already changed under the law, what possible validation is there to treat her different!

 

[Taylor]

What if we stopped being so precious about normal human functions and nudity?

One set of toilets and changerooms.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

So, because of bigotry, piggy backing on the "legitimacy" of the rare threat of 'male' infiltration, you put a woman who should have all the same rights afforded to her of the other cis gender women, in solitary?

That's so horrid. Wow.

I mean... provided shes transitioning to the stage of having her gender already changed under the law, what possible validation is there to treat her different!

They aren't physically transitioning and is a violent rapist... it's a no win scenario.

Personally don't see solitary as bad at all, who would want to be surrounded by criminals, especially in a maximum security prison. Give me books and a tv I'd feel better not having to sleep with one eye open. It's not solitary like in the movies, you still have a normal cell, you just don't have a roommate and do yard time separately, you still interact with staff and gp's etc...

 

[Doss]

What if we stopped being so precious about normal human functions and nudity?

One set of toilets and changerooms.

Too many people around the place who couldn't handle that maturely, I'd suspect.

 

[Power Raid]

What if we stopped being so precious about normal human functions and nudity?

One set of toilets and changerooms.

I worked with some dutch military chicks and they were comfortable with the all in one

 

[Lester Burnham]

What if we stopped being so precious about normal human functions and nudity?

One set of toilets and changerooms.

No

 

[Taylor]

As long as all the trusted family members promise not to abuse their children in the unisex toilet it will cut out almost absolutely all danger.



As long as I can push that elephant into the cubical.

 

[1061]

So, because of bigotry, piggy backing on the "legitimacy" of the rare threat of 'male' infiltration, you put a woman who should have all the same rights afforded to her of the other cis gender women, in solitary?

That's so horrid. Wow.

I mean... provided shes transitioning to the stage of having her gender already changed under the law, what possible validation is there to treat her different!

But she doesn't have sex like a woman, she cannot physically so how can we say she has lived her life as a woman when she can't have sex like a woman.

another elephant!

 

[kirsti]

Opening a link to Marriage equality.

Say a member of a "normal" male/female married couple finds they need to follow the transgender path and changes gender but they stay together. Once that person changes all their Identity paperwork they must then get a divorce as they'll be a same sex couple.

For a transgender person to have their gender marker altered in Australia they must firstly have had gender reassignment surgery completed, for a male to female trans person two medical practitioners must examine the person to ascertain if all male external genatalia has been removed. The medical practitioners must each document a statutory declaration from births deaths and marriages confirming that the gender reassignment surgery has been undertaken. If a trans person is married the current laws in Australia require the person to be granted a divorce prior to being able to apply for a new birth certificate.

I was born in a male body and underwent gender reassignment surgery in 2006. I had to have my divorce finalised prior to me being issued with a female birth certificate in 2006.

As a female I can now compete in sport as my true gender up to and including Olympic Games Level. I was the first woman from a transgender background to play AFL football.

In Australia I cannot marry my same sex female partner, I can only marry a male.

If I go to prison, I go to a female prison. I was a former Superintendent of Corrections in Nsw, the Department of corrective services Nsw introduced a transgender policy in the early 2000's, to which many other correctional systems have adopted this policy.

In all legal aspects I must be treated as a female in Australia.

I note there are alot of uneducated posts within this thread some that border on bigotry and trans vilification.

I am available to answer any respectful questions as I suggest education is the key to gain furth acceptance and understanding of trans issues with the greater community.

 

[Lebbo73]

For a transgender person to have their gender marker altered in Australia they must firstly have had gender reassignment surgery completed, for a male to female trans person two medical practitioners must examine the person to ascertain if all male external genatalia has been removed. The medical practitioners must each document a statutory declaration from births deaths and marriages confirming that the gender reassignment surgery has been undertaken. If a trans person is married the current laws in Australia require the person to be granted a divorce prior to being able to apply for a new birth certificate.

I was born in a male body and underwent gender reassignment surgery in 2006. I had to have my divorce finalised prior to me being issued with a female birth certificate in 2006.

As a female I can now compete in sport as my true gender up to and including Olympic Games Level. I was the first woman from a transgender background to play AFL football.

In Australia I cannot marry my same sex female partner, I can only marry a male.

If I go to prison, I go to a female prison. I was a former Superintendent of Corrections in Nsw, the Department of corrective services Nsw introduced a transgender policy in the early 2000's, to which many other correctional systems have adopted this policy.

In all legal aspects I must be treated as a female in Australia.

I note there are alot of uneducated posts within this thread some that border on bigotry and trans vilification.

I am available to answer any respectful questions as I suggest education is the key to gain furth acceptance and understanding of trans issues with the greater community.

There would be a lot of females claiming that they are competing in sport against someone who has the strength of a male. How do you deal with those complaints and do you have any counter arguments to this line of opposition?

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

As a female I can now compete in sport as my true gender up to and including Olympic Games Level. I was the first woman from a transgender background to play Aussie Rules football.

Sorry, pet hate.

 

[kirsti]

There would be a lot of females claiming that they are competing in sport against someone who has the strength of a male. How do you deal with those complaints and do you have any counter arguments to this line of opposition?

Having walked the walk I feel I am qualified to respond to your question with some authority.

Firstly I will enlighten you with the International Olympic Committees (IOC)policy on allowing athletes from a transgender background to compete as their true gender which all other sports have now adopted including the AFL.

In 2003 prior to the Athens Games the IOC formed a committee (The Stockholm Consensus) of both medical and sports experts to consider the merits of transgender athletes to compete in all Olympic Sports.

For a male to female athlete the committees recommendations included;

1.Gender reassignment surgery (GRS) must be completed.

2. A period of two years must have passed since the GRS has been undertaken.

3.The athletes gender marker must have been altered to be the correct gender to which gender the athlete is competing in.

4.Hormone replacement therapy (HRT) must have been administered for a period of atleast 2 years prior to being allowed to compete.

The Stockholm Consensus ruled that a male to female athlete has no physical advantage over genetically born females after this two year time frame.

HRT treatment for a male to female athlete includes being administered an anti androgen which significantly reduces the amount of testosterone to the normal range of a generically born female, once post operative this anti androgen is no longer required as the testes have been removed so a person like me does not produce the male hormone testosterone naturally any more. Testosterone is the hormone that provides both males and females stamina and strength. Genetically born females produce testosterone in their ovaries.

The second part of HRT includes being administered oestrogen (female hormone), oestrogen assists in the growth of breasts and the redistribution of fat cells to enable a more female body transformation to occur, also the softening of skin and hair results from this treatment.

It must be noted that since this policy was introduced in 2003 no athlete from a transgender background has dominated the Olympic Games or to my knowledge even competed, I am not saying this couldn't happen as female athlete from a transgender background has as much chance as being competative as the other females.

You ask how do I deal with assumptions from others that I and other female athletes from a trans background may be stronger or have an advantage from being born in a male body. I give them this to consider;

1.Not all males are bigger, stronger, faster than females.

2.Being born a male does not automatically make you a better athlete.

3.Females come in all shapes and sizes for instance Lauren Jackson and Lyn Savage and Martina Navratalova. Should these ladies have been banned just because they were naturally bigger or stronger than the majority of other females.

4. I have been presented with the argument that just because a person grows up in a male body that they are more aggressive and can fight better, do we ban any female from contact sports if they have a martial arts background also

I will share with you my own experiences during my transition.

I knew that I felt different at a very early age approximately at the age of three.

I was never comfortable with the masculine features of my body and these intense feelings never waivered they got stronger and stronger as the years past, I felt completely trapped in the wrong body but I kept these feelings to myself until I was in my early 30's.

I lived a pretty much normal life as a male but always carrying the burden of this secret, it was a very lonely existence as growing up in the 70,s and 80,s in country Nsw there really wasn't any support and transgender issues were not that well known at that time. I also feared rejection, victimisation, grief and loss if I allowed my secret out.

I always excelled in sports from an early age having won state swimming titles and holding state swimming records, I also excelled at most sports that required stamina, strength and endurance, I played both first grade rugby league and Australian Rules in country Nsw at one time I attracted the talent scouts of several NRL clubs.

At 14 years of age I competed in sport called Aquathon(5km run, 800mtre swim), I won both a world and Australian junior title in this sport in 1980.

I started competing in the Modern Pentathlon in 1980 and I competed at international level as both a senior and junior competitor at both World and Pan American Championships.

In 1993 I was inducted into the Wagga Wagga Sporting Hall of fame as an inaugural inductee.

I married my wife early and fathered three beautiful daughters.

In employment I obtained an electrical trade and became a correctional officer gaining the rank of superintendent during my career, I was a serving superintendent at the time I commenced my transition and for several years after.

Although I achieved many things in a male body, my feelings of gender dysphoria never waivered, they grew stronger each year until I got to the stage that I would rather have died than live any longer in the wrong body.
I felt my children and family would rather me alive as a female than self harming leaving them wondering why.

I commenced my transition in 1999 with intensive psycho therapy treatment followed by HRT treatment.

I commenced living fulltime as a female in 2002

I had breast augmentation and face feminisation surgery done in Thailand in 2004.

In 2006 once again in Thailand I had gender reassignment surgery undertaken.

I applied for and was granted a female birth certificate in late 2006.

From very early on in my HRT treatment I felt my strength and energy lesson very quickly, my weight reduced from almost 100kg to 68kgs, my muscle mass reduced dramatically.

Since undergoing GRS I have found my strength and stamina to have been reduced even further.

My same sex partner Nikki a former Australian Soccer Player and I do the same training regime and she is stronger, faster with significantly more ability than myself

I would like to thank you for your questions and I hope I haven enlightened you more in transgender issues.

The Gender Centre in Sydney has some great online information if anyone would like to educate themselves further gendercentre.org.au

 

[kirsti]

Sorry, pet hate.

Would you like to elaborate?

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Would you like to elaborate?

Aussie Rules footy, not AFL footy. The AFL is the league. It would be like a local basketball player saying they play NBA or a local cricketer saying they play test cricket.

Just a pet hate. Carry on.