News Chris Pelchen quits!

[SaintsSeptember]

Essentially this year's moves reverse what was done in the prior 18 months (other than Watters dismissal).

So if I believe the official line from St Kilda, the 2014 review says the 2013 review was wrong.

Not sure its reversing it though.
Some people say that the best thing you can do in your job is make yourself redundant.
I think the club was built up underneath Pelchen, to the extent that it became competent enough not to need him.
Like If you are a supervisor and the people underneath you become so competent that they don't need supervision.
I was concerned that the club was getting too much staff, but I didn't think Pelchan would be the one to go.

 

[ike2112]

Jolly didn't even do his job properly IMO. We didn't see Longer push forward all year, which was always Jolly's point of difference as a ruck

Early-season articles were praising him. What did Jolly do so badly?

Longer didn't and couldn't push forward because a) he was shattered most games, and b) he isn't really a fwd/ruck type.

Longer was chucked in for duty a little earlier than planned, had to do more of the ruck duties than planned when Rhys missed games/got VFL'd, and had to play more games than probably expected for his first development year with us. I admit that I didn't see any noticable difference in his ruck technique as the year went on; ripping the arm down to the side seemed to be his plan A and B, but I would struggle to say whether I felt he'd been poorly coached.

 

[Axcellence]

Its not a case of wanting to delist people. It is pointing out the reality of hoping someone comes good vs the actual tangible play they have offered at AFL level (and/or indications from VFL).

I'm not gonna go through the whole list but I'll give some examples.

Blake Acres looks like a gun. But the reason he lasted to us was doubts about durability and time missed due to injury taking him out of the spotlight a bit. That he has been injured twice since indicates those durability concerns may have been accurate. Hopefully being on an AFL list will get him support to work through whatever issues his body has and it'll become more stable and durable, and if it does I think he'll be an excellent player. However right now I'd say it's too optimistic to say he's a gun and will be all-australian for 5 years. He might be a very very good player but never manage to play 100 games.

Tom Lee. I see myself laughing at other clubs fans, when they say "he's good at this, and he's good at that, he could be a game-breaker". And my favourite - "he's a matchup nightmare".
Matchup nightmare means you have a player that doesn't really fit. Maybe have a forward who is not really big enough to be a Full Forward type and not able to run through midfield to be a small forward. Majak Daw is a matchup nightmare. Jack Gunston is bandied around as an example of what the not-big-enough forward player could become. But the medium forward is very common; the number of success stories about them are few. Lee has not been helped by having fitness issues (I got the impression effort was related to that from Richo's pre/early season comments), and then being asked to do ridiculous things such as ruck. He is a good player and frankly I feel if he was at a club with a better list he would be a best-22 AFL player now. Imagine him playing off Hawkins with that Cats midfield hitting him on the lead. But he got landed with us, and at a bad time too, and I don't think we pushed him enough to begin with, then we've asked silly things of him, and now aren't in the position to put enough good players around him to just let him be a role player. I don't think he's going to be a success, I think he looks an unfortunate victim of circumstances.

Siposs. Said since watching him in a game last year that he's just not up to it - which I also said about Dunell, yet in preseason this year people were hyping him up to be an athletic medium forward (there's that thing again).

Newnes is looking really good, but at Half-Back.
Webster is looking pretty handy but I worry about him being taken advantage of 1-on-1. People keep saying he'll be an outside mid but if that's the case I'd like to see us actually give him a game there. Its optimism based upon no evidence whatsoever to say he'll be a winger for us in a finals team.
Shenton shows promise, but also likely has a ceiling. Good enough to be on the list but also nothing about him suggests midfield.
Geary I have long felt should be a mid, but the club seem determined to have him play at the back.
Wright longer-term looks more likely to play midfield, however I have concerns over how good a midfielder he'll be as whilst I love his style its not exactly 'polished'.

KPDs
We all know we're short on KPDs - Gwilt is gone as backup now too so realistically we're an injury away from Simpkin having to play or Dempster/Roberton having to play on the 3rd tall/resting ruck, none of which are good ideas. We also don't know if Bruce is a defender or forward. This is bound to be Fisher's last year, and realistically Simpkins' too. So this time next year we will have Delaney and maybe Bruce if he is a defender. No depth at all.
KPFs
We all know we're struggling here, and have been for a while. Look at threads from early-mid season, where optimism wasn't as high about White being the messiah. Tom Lee can succeed for us but in my opinion only as a role player supporting good players in a good structure. Roo will be gone in a couple years and the club is clearly looking at using him up the ground. Stanley's gone.
Say Lee gets injured in preseason. We're gonna go all year with Roo, White and ?; and that's if White is up to it, which I doubt for 20+ games. We clearly need to draft at least 1 KPF and this is the year to do it, as next year's is the "midfielder's draft" apparently.

Outside MID
Everyone keeps going on about it, our lack of spread kills us. Especially given we're wanting to play a running game - we need more legs and speed than other clubs but right now have less. Whilst there might well be players on our list capable of shifting to the wing, we have no tangible evidence of it even being worked on yet, let alone any success with it.
Savage was going to do it, but is now a HB. Milera was going to do it, but was never looking likely and has more or less gone. Eli might do it, but massive hype based on 4 games is the epitomy of what irritates me. Wright, Webster, Shenton, Acres - they might all be wingers. Or they might not.

Inside MID
You can never have too many. We almost ran out last season at times, there was at least one week where we had no Saints inside mids playing at Sandy (more or less the weeks Ross, Curren and Jones were playing). I am not convinced at all on Seb Ross, and whilst I agree he is going to take a little time I do think this is the year that excuse doesn't hold any more.

We are going to draft 4 players this year, and 9 more in 2015/16 according to the Pelican blueprint. I'd say the hope is that out of those 13 players, 11 or so are gonna be best 22 when we get back into Finals footy. That means there are still more Saints players to get shifted on - both to get us those extra picks, and to be replaced by someone better.

Dunell might be the best example of how Saints fans, as eternal optimists (given the dearth of sustained success in our past), will see great things in a player where there are none. They'll take the strengths of a player and project them as something that will grow even better, and dismiss weaknesses of a player as something that will be developed with time (or magically disappear when they hit 50 games). Someone literally has to stink it up twice before fans decide maybe that list spot should be freed up.

I agree with some of the points you are making, but there were some context missing.


Acres got a contact injury, and then was SENT back on the ground. Clearly, not a good idea. He did have leg issues on return which resulted in missing the last games.

Lee is the same height as Riewoldt. Gunston is 193cm, and at barely any height differential from the two.


Well clearly some of the players haven't shown much because they are young and were playing behind Dal Santo (until 2013), Hayes, Jones et al.

I agree that 2015 will be make or break for certain players, e.g. Sipposs, Markworth, Lee, etc.

But the others basically are unproven in the sense that they still have to test out their ceiling or give us an indication of their ceiling. Newnes is a great example of that. He loses so many contests, but its because of his developing body rather than lack of talent.

Shenton was a mature rookie for 2 years for a reason. He broke through that. Lets give him a chance. He might not make it, but we don't have other readymade options to cover for those spots in the short term.

I guess, my point is that, we shouldn't dismiss players like the above. Some need more time and there isn't a team around with 22 AAs. All have good but not great players as well as GOPs.

 

[sammm]

The club has said Bains will be COO and perform the list management duties as part of that. We'd probably still need a head of football to go with the new head of coaching and I'd say that they want someone with more of a sports performance/fitness/health background.



Yes. From what I've read this is how I see it working out:

Bains: COO and list manager.
Bevo: Head of coaching - making sure all the coaches are working well and working on their development.
New person: Head of football - health,fitness,performance background. Makes sure all the footy s**t is working to get the best out of the players and people.

and i think thats what most clubs have
Neil balme is not list manager and football manager,

 

[sammm]

Pelchen was on 400K per annum, which may have been okay when he was appointed but is now exhorbidant. Back then he was head of football, which was a role that was all encompassing.
Now we have pro scouts, a list manager and who analyses not only ours but every other list.
We also have four full time and 9 part time recruiters, psychologists, health and fitness staff etc that have made his role redundant.
Our CEO is also a sports admin guru, something we didn't have when he was appointed. He obviously came to the view that CP was expendable and easily replaced by someone who is a better candidate and a lot cheaper.

NB plus he's a prick and ego maniac loudmouth, but I don't want to include that in my post

400k. wow for a list manager/ footy manager.

 

[Jack Stevens]

I wouldn't be too surprised if the Pelican took flight for a year, and came back next year in our list management/recruiting department, on a much smaller wage. There's only so far you can go with a list manager in charge of everything.

 

[Wright 1]

Pelchen was on SEN this morning. Praised all at Saints. Basically said he fully understood the Saints needing to restructure and that costing his position. Said the current list is within 5 -10% of the Hawks 2004 list and so we are on the right track

 

[sverik25]

Good to see that Pelchen seems to have left on good terms. At least, if he wasn't happy with the situation, he isn't slagging off about the club, rather praising the direction.

 

[VDS66]

Pelch started something... which is not yet finished. Our list has a fair way to go. Some of our kids will become best 22, but whether that best 22 is good enough to win a flag, is another matter.

We know where we are at and we know how much more work needs to be done. You cannot fix a list in 2 years. When you throw in development lag then you can see why it will take a good 5 to 6 years.

Point is: Do it right and we set ourselves up for sustained success.

 

[VDS66]

I agree with some of the points you are making, but there were some context missing.


Acres got a contact injury, and then was SENT back on the ground. Clearly, not a good idea. He did have leg issues on return which resulted in missing the last games.

Lee is the same height as Riewoldt. Gunston is 193cm, and at barely any height differential from the two.


Well clearly some of the players haven't shown much because they are young and were playing behind Dal Santo (until 2013), Hayes, Jones et al.

I agree that 2015 will be make or break for certain players, e.g. Sipposs, Markworth, Lee, etc.

But the others basically are unproven in the sense that they still have to test out their ceiling or give us an indication of their ceiling. Newnes is a great example of that. He loses so many contests, but its because of his developing body rather than lack of talent.

Shenton was a mature rookie for 2 years for a reason. He broke through that. Lets give him a chance. He might not make it, but we don't have other readymade options to cover for those spots in the short term.

I guess, my point is that, we shouldn't dismiss players like the above. Some need more time and there isn't a team around with 22 AAs. All have good but not great players as well as GOPs.

Nice points.

The thing to remember, which no one has mentioned in this discussion is that Pelch's plan was based on how many /what mix of A. B and C grade players made up a premiership team.

So it's not about bringing in A graders, but getting the balance right. The draft gives us a chance at A grade potentials... the more high picks - the better the odds.

So even if some of the players being discussed on here turn out B graders at best, there wil no doubt be a push to bring in more A's either via the draft, trade or FA.

If some of them becomes C graders, then the club will decide which ones to cut - simple.

Now, if we use the old "bottom 6" argument... if your bottom 6 ends up consisting of B graders, then you will be a serious contender IMO for many years to come.

 

[One 2 Roo]

I certainly don't agree that the Pelchen job of list rejuvenation has been completed. He said himself the plan involved 18 top picks over 4 years - he's gone before we've even selected the 2nd batch of them; we are less than halfway through the period of hard decisions.

Our list is still in a terrible state, we are at the bottom for a reason, and whilst it's good to be positive about how young players can develop to suggest that just picking kids and backing ourselves in is job done, is mindless hype. Its putting your head in the sand.
Everyone else picks kids too, every year. We're coming from further back than everyone else, so we need more and better players. Newnes had a good year, but he's not all-Australian. Hickey looks a decent ruck, but he can't stay on the field. We probably don't even have 10 names that don't have some sort of question mark against them, and one of those would be Jack Steven, where opinion seems fairly split over letting him walk if it gets us pick 2 or helps bring in Cameron/Treloar.
Not only that but law of averages means some of our draft picks won't make it as we'd planned; the chances of nailing 18 picks is seriously low.

Anyway I've digressed... the job of list rejuvenation still has plenty to go. What I would say is that perhaps this recent shift suggests we won't stick to the draft as stringently, and might be more likely to go after a GWS player or even a free agent next year.

I agree that the list rejuvenation is not complete, my point is that Pelchen's role in this process is over. His job was to make the hard calls on players that weren't going to be part of the next push, whilst also providing insight into what a premiership list needs to look like, without having a direct influence on which players specifically would be on that list.

We have now decimated to list to the point where we have bottomed out, we have designed and formulated (using Pelican's input) what the next premiership tilt needs to look like. He has no influence on the next "phase" of operation rebuild. Which is recruit, develop, build culture etc etc. His job is therefore redundant and he was moved on.

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

I agree that the list rejuvenation is not complete, my point is that Pelchen's role in this process is over. His job was to make the hard calls on players that weren't going to be part of the next push, whilst also providing insight into what a premiership list needs to look like, without having a direct influence on which players specifically would be on that list.

We have now decimated to list to the point where we have bottomed out, we have designed and formulated (using Pelican's input) what the next premiership tilt needs to look like. He has no influence on the next "phase" of operation rebuild. Which is recruit, develop, build culture etc etc. His job is therefore redundant and he was moved on.

I agree with some of your points there.
Think at times we underestimate Tony Elshaugh's standing at the club.
I guess it was more fun posting pics of birds than a Trout.
With Pelchen gone and Bains moving up. I guess Elshaug is the main man now??

 

[VDS66]

I agree with some of your points there.
Think at times we underestimate Tony Elshaugh's standing at the club.
I guess it was more fun posting pics of birds than a Trout.
With Pelchen gone and Bains moving up. I guess Elshaug is the main man now??

Read my sig!

 

[thepoyz]

Oh I wasn't referring to your opinion on CP, you might be correct. But you have always flipped
flopped your opinions (conviction pfft) to the negative. So I'm pretty sure if CP had stayed you'd be bagging the club about it and how he let RS go who is a star (at least this week).

Lots of people, myself included, have moved over to BigFooty as SS turned into a shitslinging wankfest of *******tery, it would be nice not to have to find a third forum.

Thepoyz?

Why would I change... The post you highlighted, is about people who do change?... To conform??

One guy even changes his name?

I have conviction... And am not a follower by nature...

Not here to be popular, just to pass comment.... CP is gone... Perhaps, just perhaps I'm not as wrong as apologists make out?

 

[TN25]

Who do you think will fill Pelchen's role? Any prime cantidates?

 

[Periphery]

Pelchen was on SEN this morning. Praised all at Saints. Basically said he fully understood the Saints needing to restructure and that costing his position. Said the current list is within 5 -10% of the Hawks 2004 list and so we are on the right track

For those that want to hear it:

 

[Wright 1]

Who do you think will fill Pelchen's role? Any prime cantidates?

Someone who is paid considerably less than $400K per year. More importantly however is that they have plenty of pics on the net to describe them

 

[Joffaboy]

Someone who is paid considerably less than $400K per year. More importantly however is that they have plenty of pics on the net to describe them

Hows about Che Cockatoo-Collins

hello cocky

 

[joop]

So where do we go once the whole of SS has come here?

 

[VDS66]

So where do we go once the whole of SS has come here?

We leave and set up camp on SS.

 

[SK_MD_#7]

So where do we go once the whole of SS has come here?

Maybe True Sainters opens back up?

otherwise i don't know....

 

[Persevering Saint]

What I loved about that interview, is that in an interview with a staff member who has just left, they are still asking questions like, "So what will YOU take at pick 1?" Everything about how Chris did that interview just screams that he's still part of the family - more so than any coach that has left that I can remember (just quietly...). Total and utter class.

Honestly, he worked himself out of a job. The place was a shambles, and he came in to stop it being one. It's not a shambles any more, and so his role, with his specific skillset, is finished. This is a chance for congratulations, not recriminations.

It's a shame that we can't accept this as part of the way clubs are just run. Take Primus at Port for example - he'll be remembered as the guy who must have been crap because his successor "turned the list around". But it also be just as true that he was a developer, and Hinkley is a finisher. Both valuable roles for different stages in the list.

 

[Joffaboy]

So where do we go once the whole of SS has come here?

They wont all come here. Most over there just love to argue with each other.

best thing about this place is that the ignore function completely ignores anything with the members nic in it.

If they all come over just ignore them and carry on.

 

[Periphery]

What I loved about that interview, is that in an interview with a staff member who has just left, they are still asking questions like, "So what will YOU take at pick 1?" Everything about how Chris did that interview just screams that he's still part of the family - more so than any coach that has left that I can remember (just quietly...). Total and utter class.

Honestly, he worked himself out of a job. The place was a shambles, and he came in to stop it being one. It's not a shambles any more, and so his role, with his specific skillset, is finished. This is a chance for congratulations, not recriminations.

It's a shame that we can't accept this as part of the way clubs are just run. Take Primus at Port for example - he'll be remembered as the guy who must have been crap because his successor "turned the list around". But it also be just as true that he was a developer, and Hinkley is a finisher. Both valuable roles for different stages in the list.

Indeed. I think that Pelchen was still referring to the club as "we" was pretty telling about how amicable his departure was.

 

[sammm]

Oh I wasn't referring to your opinion on CP, you might be correct. But you have always flipped
flopped your opinions (conviction pfft) to the negative. So I'm pretty sure if CP had stayed you'd be bagging the club about it and how he let RS go who is a star (at least this week).

I think bigfooty has ore moderators and control then at saintsational. well I hope so. I also don't want to have to find another forum.

Lots of people, myself included, have moved over to BigFooty as SS turned into a shitslinging wankfest of *******tery, it would be nice not to have to find a third forum.