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Hoyer's gotta hit the pine.
Sloppy. Tired.
Sloppy. Tired.
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Hoyer has to go now. He is totally shot of confidence. All the qualities that made him great at the start of the year have now left him. You could argue this is because he was always looking over his shoulder and never had the full backing of the browns. But you want a QB that can deal with that pressure, fight through it and exceed. Instead it has wore him down and crumbled him into a player that is unrecognisable. The Manziel era has begun perhaps still a little early. His complete dedication to the film room is questionable otherwise the team might already be his. Giving him a taste now in the final three games will probably humble him and let him know just how much he needs to work to be good.
The Browns relationship with Josh Gordon could go a number of ways from here. It will be interesting to watch. Nothing would surprise me.
The Browns relationship with Josh Gordon could go a number of ways from here. It will be interesting to watch. Nothing would surprise me.
Chris25
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Our D has never played better and Crowell/West did a great job in the first half. But with Hoyer getting nothing done, the Colts could stack the line and completely stop the offense in the second half. 7 interceptions and 0 TDs over the past month says it all really. It has to be Manziel next week. And I'm not just saying that because I'll be at the game and want to see his first start live. Although I really want to see his first start live!
As for Gordon, it was never going to be easy coming straight back in after 10 weeks without practice. He's made some mistakes, but Hoyer missed him on a couple of big plays his week. Even just connecting on one, and his stats sheet would have looked great. Losing Austin would have hurt too, as he was the only other receiver with any size (would be nice to have kept Charles Johnson). The whole offense was looking a little flat really, the spark of Manziel should give everyone a lift.
As for Gordon, it was never going to be easy coming straight back in after 10 weeks without practice. He's made some mistakes, but Hoyer missed him on a couple of big plays his week. Even just connecting on one, and his stats sheet would have looked great. Losing Austin would have hurt too, as he was the only other receiver with any size (would be nice to have kept Charles Johnson). The whole offense was looking a little flat really, the spark of Manziel should give everyone a lift.
Blacky
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Word is that JFF is getting the nod
Chris25
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So...Spencer Lanning was great today!
Otherwise, we sucked. And I'm not putting that all on Manziel. He played poorly, but had no help at all. Our receivers were awful. Three easy first downs were dropped, and they got no separation all day. 90% of the time when Manziel was holding onto the ball it's because there was literally nobody to throw to. And for the most part, we might as well have not played with a centre or right guard. The Bengals D collapsed our line way too easily. And it was odd that we completey abandoned the inside pitch running game, which made up the majority of Crowell's carries this season. And why the hell would we have Agnew split out wide as a receiver? That's not fooling anyone, and he struggles to block in the open field. Nothing worked on offense, and you can't blame Manziel for everything.
And our D? Wow. Injuries destroyed us. Without Taylor and Hughes, Dansby is all we had to stop the run. It's no surprise we got dominated the way we did. Desir did an admirable job with no Haden, Williams or Gilbert, but it's lucky we played the worst starter in the NFL in Dalton. Anyone else would have put up 50+ points on us today.
But still, atmosphere was amazing. Went to a Redskins home game last week, and they barely made a noise all game.
Otherwise, we sucked. And I'm not putting that all on Manziel. He played poorly, but had no help at all. Our receivers were awful. Three easy first downs were dropped, and they got no separation all day. 90% of the time when Manziel was holding onto the ball it's because there was literally nobody to throw to. And for the most part, we might as well have not played with a centre or right guard. The Bengals D collapsed our line way too easily. And it was odd that we completey abandoned the inside pitch running game, which made up the majority of Crowell's carries this season. And why the hell would we have Agnew split out wide as a receiver? That's not fooling anyone, and he struggles to block in the open field. Nothing worked on offense, and you can't blame Manziel for everything.
And our D? Wow. Injuries destroyed us. Without Taylor and Hughes, Dansby is all we had to stop the run. It's no surprise we got dominated the way we did. Desir did an admirable job with no Haden, Williams or Gilbert, but it's lucky we played the worst starter in the NFL in Dalton. Anyone else would have put up 50+ points on us today.
But still, atmosphere was amazing. Went to a Redskins home game last week, and they barely made a noise all game.
I did want Manziel to be humbled, not quite to that extent though. The game looked too fast for him. He tried to play like he was still at Texas A&M. His mechanics, even to my untrained eye were awful. Four or five of his passes were thrown with all his weight gong backwards. Only one game but it was almost as bad as it gets.
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Well if you don't want manziel there is always Hoyer.
- Sep 6, 2005
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Kosar takes aim at Browns front office, culture
Posted by Mike Florio on December 16, 2014, 7:19 AM EST
AP
Sure, former Browns quarterback and lingering local legend Bernie Kosar has an axe to grind against the organization, given that he was removed from the team’s preseason broadcasts. Regardless of the potential motivation, Kosar had some strong words for the franchise in the aftermath of the inauspicious debut of Johnny Football.
Appearing on WTAM radio, Kosar said the front office has created a culture of quarterback quick fixes that never pan out, all in the name of providing hope at a time of chronic hopelessness.
“It’s just a complete recipe for a disaster,” Kosar said, via Mary Kay Cabot of the Cleveland Plain Dealer.
“You can’t put these [quarterbacks] in these spots,” Kosar added. “It’s almost abuse. If you’re going to keep running it the way we’re running it, we may as well do nothing [to fix the quarterback situation], because you’ll kill two more kids coming in here. It’ll fail. It does not matter right now.”
Kosar believes the quarterback issues mask deeper problems with the organization, which begin with the front office.
“You can take out Brian, you can take out Johnny Manziel’s name and you can plug in [Tim] Couch . . . [Derek] Anderson, Brady Quinn, Colt McCoy. . . . The names change, but the way we do things as a culture above them is still the same and yeah he wasn’t ready, but the team’s not ready. . . .
“They’ve been talking so positively like ‘this is the savior’ and that’s what bad organizations do,” Kosar explained. “They set these quarterback controversies up and it kind of takes the heat off of them and it gives everybody a little glimmer of hope. . . . The organization and the players and coaches actually thought [Manziel] was going to do good. I know they believed he was going to do good.”
Though much of the explanation from Kosar was a bit rambling and repetitive, his target seemed to be a culture that lacks an obsessive focus with winning and that has displayed, essentially, a fan’s mentality toward Manziel.
“[Even] the defensive people are talking about how Johnny is going to do,” Kosar said. “They were like us fans. Even the head coach said, ‘Hey we’re kind of looking forward to watching him play.’ Everybody wanted to watch him play instead of do their job.
“When you start worrying about everybody else’s and you don’t focus on your job that’s what happens.”
While plenty of things have to go wrong for a team to lose 30-0 at home, Kosar makes an interesting point regarding team culture and mindset. In an era of unprecedented parity, it’s likely not an accident that the Browns have been barely competitive since returning to the NFL in 1999. Deeper issues exist that no front office nor coaching staff have managed to eradicate, and Sunday’s experience in the first game of what felt like a new era for the team created a strong sense that, despite the hope that was carefully built throughout 2014, nothing has really changed.
So the need for change remains.
Posted by Mike Florio on December 16, 2014, 7:19 AM EST
Sure, former Browns quarterback and lingering local legend Bernie Kosar has an axe to grind against the organization, given that he was removed from the team’s preseason broadcasts. Regardless of the potential motivation, Kosar had some strong words for the franchise in the aftermath of the inauspicious debut of Johnny Football.
Appearing on WTAM radio, Kosar said the front office has created a culture of quarterback quick fixes that never pan out, all in the name of providing hope at a time of chronic hopelessness.
“It’s just a complete recipe for a disaster,” Kosar said, via Mary Kay Cabot of the Cleveland Plain Dealer.
“You can’t put these [quarterbacks] in these spots,” Kosar added. “It’s almost abuse. If you’re going to keep running it the way we’re running it, we may as well do nothing [to fix the quarterback situation], because you’ll kill two more kids coming in here. It’ll fail. It does not matter right now.”
Kosar believes the quarterback issues mask deeper problems with the organization, which begin with the front office.
“You can take out Brian, you can take out Johnny Manziel’s name and you can plug in [Tim] Couch . . . [Derek] Anderson, Brady Quinn, Colt McCoy. . . . The names change, but the way we do things as a culture above them is still the same and yeah he wasn’t ready, but the team’s not ready. . . .
“They’ve been talking so positively like ‘this is the savior’ and that’s what bad organizations do,” Kosar explained. “They set these quarterback controversies up and it kind of takes the heat off of them and it gives everybody a little glimmer of hope. . . . The organization and the players and coaches actually thought [Manziel] was going to do good. I know they believed he was going to do good.”
Though much of the explanation from Kosar was a bit rambling and repetitive, his target seemed to be a culture that lacks an obsessive focus with winning and that has displayed, essentially, a fan’s mentality toward Manziel.
“[Even] the defensive people are talking about how Johnny is going to do,” Kosar said. “They were like us fans. Even the head coach said, ‘Hey we’re kind of looking forward to watching him play.’ Everybody wanted to watch him play instead of do their job.
“When you start worrying about everybody else’s and you don’t focus on your job that’s what happens.”
While plenty of things have to go wrong for a team to lose 30-0 at home, Kosar makes an interesting point regarding team culture and mindset. In an era of unprecedented parity, it’s likely not an accident that the Browns have been barely competitive since returning to the NFL in 1999. Deeper issues exist that no front office nor coaching staff have managed to eradicate, and Sunday’s experience in the first game of what felt like a new era for the team created a strong sense that, despite the hope that was carefully built throughout 2014, nothing has really changed.
So the need for change remains.
Dirty Bird
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I must admit, I did find it mildly amusing that both Chad and Chris saw their teams shutout.
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Donte Whitner: I’ve been told Browns will cut guys who don’t buy in
Posted by Michael David Smith on December 29, 2014, 12:01 PM EST
Getty Images
Browns safety Donte Whitner was signed this year in part to be a veteran leader. But many of the young players on the Browns’ roster don’t seem to want a veteran leader to push them. Now Whitner says he has an assurance from the team’s decision makers that those young players are on the way out.
“I’ve been assured that we’re going to bring guys in and get guys off this bus that don’t really want to be here and do what they are supposed to do,” said Whitner, via Cleveland.com.
The problem facing the Browns is that the players who aren’t doing what they’re supposed to do are some of the team’s most talented young players: Both of the Browns’ 2014 first-round draft picks, Justin Gilbert and Johnny Manziel, were disciplined last week for showing up late to work, and the Browns’ best offensive playmaker, Josh Gordon, was suspended for skipping the final walk-through practice of the season. It’s hard to get rid of your best receiver and your two first-round picks.
But maybe that’s what the Browns need to do. Whitner says the Browns can’t succeed without players who care enough to put in the necessary work.
“Any team in the National Football League where you have a good locker room, you have guys who understand what they’re supposed to do,” said Whitner. “They understand when they are supposed to be there and when they’re not supposed to be there. When you have those distractions, it kind of equals losses. Like I said, we need to get some guys off the train and get some guys on the train who want to win.”
It’s a bad sign for the Browns that the guys the team most needs to build around are exactly the guys Whitner is talking about, the guys who don’t seem to understand what they’re supposed to do.
Posted by Michael David Smith on December 29, 2014, 12:01 PM EST
Browns safety Donte Whitner was signed this year in part to be a veteran leader. But many of the young players on the Browns’ roster don’t seem to want a veteran leader to push them. Now Whitner says he has an assurance from the team’s decision makers that those young players are on the way out.
“I’ve been assured that we’re going to bring guys in and get guys off this bus that don’t really want to be here and do what they are supposed to do,” said Whitner, via Cleveland.com.
The problem facing the Browns is that the players who aren’t doing what they’re supposed to do are some of the team’s most talented young players: Both of the Browns’ 2014 first-round draft picks, Justin Gilbert and Johnny Manziel, were disciplined last week for showing up late to work, and the Browns’ best offensive playmaker, Josh Gordon, was suspended for skipping the final walk-through practice of the season. It’s hard to get rid of your best receiver and your two first-round picks.
But maybe that’s what the Browns need to do. Whitner says the Browns can’t succeed without players who care enough to put in the necessary work.
“Any team in the National Football League where you have a good locker room, you have guys who understand what they’re supposed to do,” said Whitner. “They understand when they are supposed to be there and when they’re not supposed to be there. When you have those distractions, it kind of equals losses. Like I said, we need to get some guys off the train and get some guys on the train who want to win.”
It’s a bad sign for the Browns that the guys the team most needs to build around are exactly the guys Whitner is talking about, the guys who don’t seem to understand what they’re supposed to do.
Chris25
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The thing I hate about the NFL more than anything else, is how much they overreact. The moment anything even remotely bad happens, everyone is calling for players to be released and executives fired. If a rookie doesn't immediately play to a Pro Bowl level, then they are a bust and should be out of the league. I'll never understand the idea of cutting a talented player simply to make a point. A roster full of guys with lots of heart but little talent isn't going to win any matches.
Gilbert and Manziel may have struggled, but now they know they aren't the big fish anymore. It would be stupid to not give them the chance to redeem themselves. All you'd be doing is giving another team a shot at success. There are no positives for Cleveland. And Gordon was thrown straight into an offense with poor QB play, no centre and no other offensive weapons. All on the back of no practice. Of course the timing wasn't there. And as for appearing disinterested, nobody was complaining last year when he led the league in receiving yards. His attitude hasn't changed. Just the stats have.
Gilbert and Manziel may have struggled, but now they know they aren't the big fish anymore. It would be stupid to not give them the chance to redeem themselves. All you'd be doing is giving another team a shot at success. There are no positives for Cleveland. And Gordon was thrown straight into an offense with poor QB play, no centre and no other offensive weapons. All on the back of no practice. Of course the timing wasn't there. And as for appearing disinterested, nobody was complaining last year when he led the league in receiving yards. His attitude hasn't changed. Just the stats have.
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You nor me see what really goes on in the lockerroom, facilities, coaches meetings with players, etc. More and more, teams are steering clear of players who are divisive in the lockerroom, get into off-field trouble too much, take days off, etc.
I agree with you Chris on Manziel and Gilbert. However I wouldn't be shocked or all that disappointed if we cut/traded Gordon. He has been in the league three years he should no better by now. Plus i'm now of the opinion that a team of solid wr's often works better then having the one superstar.
Woodson
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It disappointing that such 'swagger' that is needed and acquired, can't grasp the 'leadership' qualities that is an integeral part of success. Chris25 is spot on about the overreacting. The Browns will NOT get anywhere by trading away quality players. (Doubt this applies to Manziel). They simply need more quality leadership surrounding these 'immature buffoons' who are not only embarrassing the rest of the lockeroom but themselves… once this penny drops, the Browns will be a better team and the idea of getting a razzmatazz QB who was highly touted 'starter' in the NFL… has been a dreadful mistake so it seems. Manziel is already in denial about actions. If I'm the GM.. I ask Johhny to report to my office at 12.12 exactly. That's sixty seconds of a window to think about. If he can't manage that… SCREAMS 'Attitude' and as most should know by now… winning in the NFL is all about team protocol and not being the douchebag with BS excuses. Boys will be boys… that's understood.. there is NO harm in letting them enjoy themselves but there is a reason for punctuailty and that just tells the rest of the lockeroom that 'they don't respect team protocol/ let alone understand it = winning.
Bad attitude is like a flat tyre, if you don't change it, you won't get anywhere fast.
Bad attitude is like a flat tyre, if you don't change it, you won't get anywhere fast.
Chris25
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I would be shocked if we kept Gordon. But I'd still be disappointed if we got rid of him.
I agree that a team of solid receivers can largely get the job done. But without that one 'good' receiver who actually draws coverage then you're asking players to play above their ability. We'd be back to the days of Massaquoi and Robiskie. And as much as I like Hawkins and Gabriel (Benjamin not so much) they are both slot receivers.
Get rid of Gordon, and you have three options...
- find another free agent like Miles Austin and hope for a similar return to form
- play a team of midget receivers
- bank on the draft and hope we do better than our 'big name' picks last year
None of those options really thrill me. Not when we have a cheap and talented #1 receiver on our list already.
I agree that a team of solid receivers can largely get the job done. But without that one 'good' receiver who actually draws coverage then you're asking players to play above their ability. We'd be back to the days of Massaquoi and Robiskie. And as much as I like Hawkins and Gabriel (Benjamin not so much) they are both slot receivers.
Get rid of Gordon, and you have three options...
- find another free agent like Miles Austin and hope for a similar return to form
- play a team of midget receivers
- bank on the draft and hope we do better than our 'big name' picks last year
None of those options really thrill me. Not when we have a cheap and talented #1 receiver on our list already.
Another reason why we should keep him is that he costs us nothing. He will be looking for a big pay day as he hasn't had one yet. I get the feeling that a contract year will bring the best out of Gordon no matter what is going on around him. Then we get let him go when it's time to pay him.
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Tony Grossi recently reported that in the 10 weeks that Gordon was out suspended he used that time to turn into a massive diva.
I just don't see it...
I just don't see it...
Another interesting thing from Grossi is that Hoyer was not as well liked as everyone thinks. Some people in the building described him as a "know it all" and never had the full respect of the coaching staff.
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Chris25
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My thoughts exactly. Of all the options for 2015/16, Gordon would probably end up being the cheapest one. At the very least, get a year out of his talents before moving him on - and as you say, he'll be looking for a massive contract. And with that sort of potential money on the board, I doubt we'll be seeing too many queries on his commitment. With question marks at QB and two second year running backs, we really don't need to be finding a new #1 WR too.
And as for being a divisive presence in the locker room, his teammates like him enough to invite him to Las Vegas. He can't be that bad.
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Dixie Flatline
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J Shuttlesworth
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Gordon has apparently failed another drug test.
Such a bloody huge waste of talent.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...one-year-suspension-failing-another-drug-test
Such a bloody huge waste of talent.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...one-year-suspension-failing-another-drug-test
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ESPN's Adam Schefter reports Josh Gordon has flunked yet another drug test and will be subject to a one-year suspension.
Details aren't yet known, but should trickle out within the next 48 hours. Gordon was suspended ten games to open the 2014 season for multiple failed drug tests. The Browns also suspended him for Week 17 following a violation of team rules. There were postseason rumors the Browns might try trading Gordon this offseason, but the latest ban effectively torpedoes his trade value. The Browns may outright release him shortly.
A source tells Profootballtalk.com that a successful appeal for Josh Gordon's latest suspension is "unlikely at this point."
Gordon allegedly tested positive for alcohol, something he was presumably prohibited from consuming in connection with his laundry list of drug-related misdeeds. Per PFT's Mike Florio, Gordon's one-year ban is likely a "done deal." The Browns need wide receiver help. And a quarterback.
Details aren't yet known, but should trickle out within the next 48 hours. Gordon was suspended ten games to open the 2014 season for multiple failed drug tests. The Browns also suspended him for Week 17 following a violation of team rules. There were postseason rumors the Browns might try trading Gordon this offseason, but the latest ban effectively torpedoes his trade value. The Browns may outright release him shortly.
A source tells Profootballtalk.com that a successful appeal for Josh Gordon's latest suspension is "unlikely at this point."
Gordon allegedly tested positive for alcohol, something he was presumably prohibited from consuming in connection with his laundry list of drug-related misdeeds. Per PFT's Mike Florio, Gordon's one-year ban is likely a "done deal." The Browns need wide receiver help. And a quarterback.
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Profootballtalk's Mike Florio confirms Josh Gordon's one-year suspension stems from a failed test for alcohol, a substance Gordon was prohibited from consuming following his July 2014 DUI.
Consuming alcohol seems minor to all of us, but it was explicitly banned in Gordon's case as part of his DUI probation terms. As NFL Network's Ian Rapoport noted on Twitter, the NFL's substance abuse policy is "extremely strict and spelled out. He'll wait for 2016." Gordon will be 25 1/2 years old when the 2016 season kicks off. He led the NFL in receiving yards at age 22.
Consuming alcohol seems minor to all of us, but it was explicitly banned in Gordon's case as part of his DUI probation terms. As NFL Network's Ian Rapoport noted on Twitter, the NFL's substance abuse policy is "extremely strict and spelled out. He'll wait for 2016." Gordon will be 25 1/2 years old when the 2016 season kicks off. He led the NFL in receiving yards at age 22.
