Roast Cloke and White Goal Kicking Holding us Back

[THATSGOLD]

What is the alternative?

Can't be sitting here next year talking about the same two forwards costing us. Put it that way.

 

[Roverjg]

Below are some forwards at other clubs that are out of contract at the end of the year.
Lachie Henderson (196cm; 96kgs; 25 yrs - 110 games: Average: 11.5 disposals; 5.3 marks; 1 goal per game. Has kicked 102/53): Plays both ends
Jake Carlisle (198cm; 98 kgs; 23 yrs - 79 games: Average: 13.0 disposals; 6 marks; .8 goal per game): Plays both ends
Jack Hawkins (197cm; 105kgs; 27 yrs - 157 games: Average: 11.5 disposals; 5.4 marks; 2.0 goals per game)
Sam Day (196cm; 103kgs; 22 yrs - 68 games - Average 9.3 disposals; 3.2 marks; .7 goals. Has kicked 46/33): Plays both ends
Tom Lynch (199cms; 101 kgs; 23 yrs - 70 games: Average 14.0 disposals; 5.3 marks; 1.4 goals per game. Has kicked 99/60)
Charlie Dixon (200cm; 105kgs; 25 yrs - 57 games: Average: 10.4 disposals; 3.0 marks; 1.3 goals per game. Has kicked 73/36)
Jon Patton (198cm; 103kgs; 22 yrs - 29 games: Average: 9.9 disposals; 4.2 marks; 1.2 goals per game. Has kicked 34/24)
Adam Tomlinson (193cm; 92kgs; 21 yrs - Average: 14.6 disposals; 6.2 marks; .3 goals per game. Has kicked 15/13): Plays both ends and wing
Cam McCarthy (193cm; 83kgs; 20 yrs - Average: 10.4 disposals; 4.5 marks; 2.3 goals per game. Has kicked 30/9)
Jesse Hogan (195cm; 97kgs; 20 yrs - 10 games: Average: 13.7 disposals; 6.8 marks; 2.2 goals per game. Has kicked 22/8)
Jack Darling (193cm; 93kgs; 23 yrs - 92 games: Average: 12.2 disposals; 4.8 marks; 1.8 goals per game. Has kicked 162/96)
Jay Schulz (193cm; 94kgs; 30 yrs: Average: 10.7 disposals: 5.1 marks; 1.7 goals per game. Has kicked 305/152)

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Exactly. It's his job and he's failing at his job which is a slice of the pizza that can't be just over looked to be great again.

NO

His job is not to "kick goals". His job is to be part of a team that wants to win.

Every player in the 22 has multiple roles. It is a only a child who thinks that you only judge a forward on the number of goals they kick. If you were just judging on goals, then everyone would clearly much rather have Fevola than Cloke... if thats what you want then go and support a team like Carlton who value individual players over playing a team game. We won in 2010 by playing a TEAM game, and Cloke did not have dominant numbers - we had everybody playing their role for the TEAM.
Cloke's kicking is a problem (but numbers-wise isn't actually that much worse than a number of other top forwards) but everything else he provides for this team is well above average, and is elite in a number of areas.

 

[THATSGOLD]

NO

His job is not to "kick goals". His job is to be part of a team that wants to win.

Every player in the 22 has multiple roles. It is a only a child who thinks that you only judge a forward on the number of goals they kick. If you were just judging on goals, then everyone would clearly much rather have Fevola than Cloke... if thats what you want then go and support a team like Carlton who value individual players over playing a team game. We won in 2010 by playing a TEAM game, and Cloke did not have dominant numbers - we had everybody playing their role for the TEAM.
Cloke's kicking is a problem (but numbers-wise isn't actually that much worse than a number of other top forwards) but everything else he provides for this team is well above average, and is elite in a number of areas.

If his job isn't to kick goals what the point of him being out there!!!!! Kicks goals and have an extra 2 wins in past two weeks!

 

[TradeDraft]

NO

His job is not to "kick goals". His job is to be part of a team that wants to win.

Every player in the 22 has multiple roles. It is a only a child who thinks that you only judge a forward on the number of goals they kick. If you were just judging on goals, then everyone would clearly much rather have Fevola than Cloke... if thats what you want then go and support a team like Carlton who value individual players over playing a team game. We won in 2010 by playing a TEAM game, and Cloke did not have dominant numbers - we had everybody playing their role for the TEAM.
Cloke's kicking is a problem (but numbers-wise isn't actually that much worse than a number of other top forwards) but everything else he provides for this team is well above average, and is elite in a number of areas.

Cloke got a Big Contract to Kick Goals to win us games. Cloke fair bit does the opposite and kick us out of the games by missing rather easy set shots

 

[didaksrightfoot]

If his job isn't to kick goals what the point of him being out there!!!!! Kicks goals and have an extra 2 wins in past two weeks!

Seriously did you not actually read my post?
Lets replace Cloke with the "average" forward - might kick more accurately, but would not get the marks Cloke does, wouldn't have the endurance and keep presenting up the field all game (which is crucial for our structures and our ability to get it out of the backline) and absolutely ragdolled one of the top defenders in the game last night.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Cloke got a Big Contract to Kick Goals to win us games. Cloke fair bit does the opposite and kick us out of the games by missing rather easy set shots

HE DOES NOT HAVE A CONTRACT TO KICK GOALS. HE HAS A CONTRACT TO BE PART OF A TEAM THAT WINS GAMES.
Why can't you guys see that?

If you want goals, get someone like Fevola... good luck winning games then.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

2010 - our flag winning year.
Trav kicked 38-40 (below 50%) and took 171 marks. We won the Flag.

This year he is kicking 32-21 (on par for 59 goals if he played the same number of games... at much better accuracy) with 94 marks (on track for 170-odd for the season)

 

[1ipie]

Need to drop both to the vfl and just cut our losses with them .. Moore had a blinda last night just put him at full forward ..

 

[TradeDraft]

HE DOES NOT HAVE A CONTRACT TO KICK GOALS. HE HAS A CONTRACT TO BE PART OF A TEAM THAT WINS GAMES.
Why can't you guys see that?

If you want goals, get someone like Fevola... good luck winning games then.

He has a Massive Contract to be a Match Winner. He has done it a Few Times but he can also be with his Wayward Kicking. A match Loser

 

[PicaBoo]

We got a nice spread of goal kicking. Even Williams got 1 y'day through traffic. If 1 forward is a bit wayward, it shouldn't hurt us.
But our whole forward line had their radar off.
Still believe that White is better when he doesn't have to ruck as well. So don't blame him for being forced into a different role .
Wait until our ruck duo gets back again and then judge them again.

Repentless

 

[Somebody]

A least FAz was getting the ball and getting shots on goal as well as impacting the opposition heavily. Just has to brush up his accuracy. IF he fails to do this continually then can pop him min the Tavis-jessie bag.

 

[Somebody]

He has a Massive Contract to be a Match Winner. He has done it a Few Times but he can also be with his Wayward Kicking. A match Loser

Depends whether match winner or mach loser happens to turn up in a final and especially a GF.
IF the former, all else will be forgiven.

 

[Kappa]

Bennell + Dixon for Cloke in a trade.

Get games into Moore and use Dixon and Moore as our long term KPF, with White as backup in the short term until Moore is ready.

Bennell to make our outside speed and skill significantly better

 

[Ted Parker]

He has a Massive Contract to be a Match Winner. He has done it a Few Times but he can also be with his Wayward Kicking. A match Loser

At 55,911 your effective posts in Cloke terms would have you editing the Trading Post. Sometimes less is more...

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Bennell + Dixon for Cloke in a trade.

Get games into Moore and use Dixon and Moore as our long term KPF, with White as backup in the short term until Moore is ready.

Bennell to make our outside speed and skill significantly better

Thats the most laughable suggestion ive read yet.

Simple answer - No.
Long answer - Noooooooooooooooooo

 

[jimmy35]

He has a Massive Contract to be a Match Winner. He has done it a Few Times but he can also be with his Wayward Kicking. A match Loser

Sounds likes a key forward to me.



Anyone got any names of key forwards that are match winners every week? That's the lot of them unfortunately, important to the structure of a side and hopefully the difference when we need it.
Clokeys helped win us plenty of games.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

He has a Massive Contract to be a Match Winner. He has done it a Few Times but he can also be with his Wayward Kicking. A match Loser

TD - that is just a reactionary post.

I know you are as passionate as anyone about our club (probably moreso)... but that post is just wrong.

I hope that you are able to take a step back, and rather than just focusing on his goalkicking, look at all of the things that Trav provides that have made him a champion CHF for this club.
---

And to put his salary in context, (from reports) he is getting paid 25-30% less than Buddy (fair enough), Tippett and Boyd. I have heard (but not seen reported) that both N.Riewoldt and Pav are both on about $1m a year as well as those 3 - and that Cloke had been offered around that from the Dockers. So we either paid him his current contract (which I don't think is overpaid at all given how much less it is than those guys) or we let him walk for nothing, and tried to replace him in trade/free agency and good luck doing that without having to grossly overpay for someone (see: Tippett and Boyd).

 

[Baltimore Jack]

He has a Massive Contract to be a Match Winner. He has done it a Few Times but he can also be with his Wayward Kicking. A match Loser

Dave that is your interpretation of his contract, I doubt (literally) his contract says anything about that.
Think about this 17 other clubs would love to have him, why is that do you think?

 

[Temploar]

Bennell + Dixon for Cloke in a trade.

Get games into Moore and use Dixon and Moore as our long term KPF, with White as backup in the short term until Moore is ready.

Bennell to make our outside speed and skill significantly better

And yet here we are doing everything we can to avoid a drug culture at Collingwood... o.o

 

[BuildEmUp]

White and Cloke are chokers when the game is there to be won. We need to replace them to go anywhere. Fasolo is turning in to another choker. 1.3 in the third killed us.

As I see it you need to barrack for another team, How do you reconcile Buckley's comments with yours?

where he re-iterated Pies were the most accurate team before that round and are now second only behind Geelong? Pies at 54..4 and cats at 55.2 !

 

[BuildEmUp]

Sounds likes a key forward to me.



Anyone got any names of key forwards that are match winners every week? That's the lot of them unfortunately, important to the structure of a side and hopefully the difference when we need it.
Clokeys helped win us plenty of games.

Exactly .. Well Said! Cloke had a blinder !

 

[BuildEmUp]

NO

His job is not to "kick goals". His job is to be part of a team that wants to win.

Every player in the 22 has multiple roles. It is a only a child who thinks that you only judge a forward on the number of goals they kick. If you were just judging on goals, then everyone would clearly much rather have Fevola than Cloke... if thats what you want then go and support a team like Carlton who value individual players over playing a team game. We won in 2010 by playing a TEAM game, and Cloke did not have dominant numbers - we had everybody playing their role for the TEAM.
Cloke's kicking is a problem (but numbers-wise isn't actually that much worse than a number of other top forwards) but everything else he provides for this team is well above average, and is elite in a number of areas.

well said - Exactly on point and how he is seen INSIDE the club, and not by fickle ANONYMOUS keyboard warriors!!

 

[THATSGOLD]

As I see it you need to barrack for another team, How do you reconcile Buckley's comments with yours?

where he re-iterated Pies were teh most accurate team before that round and are now second only behingGeelong? Pies at 54..4 and cats at 55.2 !

4 behinds to us for what? That's Cloke every week! White has choked two weeks in a row in the final minute of the game. Defend him all you like but we aren't winning a flag with Cloke and White as our main key forwards.

 

[Ketchup]

4 behinds to us for what? That's Cloke every week! White has choked two weeks in a row in the final minute of the game. Defend him all you like but we aren't winning a flag with Cloke and White as our main key forwards.

Granted true, but if we kicked 5 goals in the third (mainly due to fasolo's misses that we didn't) and kicked the 5 we should of got against fremantle we win both games. It's too simplistic to look at the last 5 minutes of a game.