Analysis Collingwood Almanac 2015

[Quicky]

Just had to see how much better we where with Reid was down back.

With Getting Howe. There is no real need to play Reid Forward

The other side to having both Reid and Moore in the side, if we need Reid forward we can just flip their roles. Howe can move back too. There is flexibility there.

 

[Knightmare]

I think Reid is elite by foot for his position. I think you are putting far too much sway in that extra 5m that he is said to have lost. He has the entire rest of the kicking repertoire on his left foot. And 55-60m is plenty penetrating. Nothing else has changed in his game since he was at his best.

I like Reid forward, but he is far more valuable and important to our defensive balance. That was borne out this year when he got sent back. It was two different back lines out there. I like Marsh and would like to see him back there when we need that extra legitimate third key position back (on a match up basis). But alongside Reid and Brown.

Personally if we are going to stick one of our youngsters in a key post, I would like to develop Moore over Marsh.

The part of what you're talking about that resonates with me and fascinates me is Moore v Marsh.

Marsh is the more advanced of the two having had the extra year in the AFL system. So his play as of today is without question better.

Moore I'd agree with anyone in saying has the higher long term ceiling, and I also agree with the premise that he needs regular senior games for his development.

What I'm considering as a further possibility is Moore playing the relief ruck position, and being that 3rd forward alongside Cloke and Reid, with Brown and Marsh the key defenders.

There are so many plausible ways we could choose to play guys.

Brown down back is fixed. Cloke up forward is fixed. Similarly Grundy through the ruck is fixed. From there Reid can play forward or back. Then down back Frost and/or Marsh are optionals. Through the ruck Witts and Cox who I feel will be good enough next year is another optional. And then Moore either as a second ruck behind Grundy or a second key forward is also possible.

Then White and Gault as VFL standard footballers ideally stay out of that selection conversation. But even in doing that. Even without White or Gault in the 1s, there are still so many plausible combinations and ways we could structure up those talls. At the end of the day you just have to reward form and go with the best performers which we won't know until next season with that whole group fairly even and all possibly having cases.

 

[TradeDraft]

The other side to having both Reid and Moore in the side, if we need Reid forward we can just flip their roles. Howe can move back too. There is flexibility there.

I don't see Howe as a Defender. Struggled this Season in that Postion

 

[Saintly Viewed]

I think what people are missing is with Reid going forward, he provides by far the best option of support for Cloke.
To have Cloke return as dominant monster Cloke he needs a really good foil.
Otherwise he will get various multiple defenders at once nullifying him etc.

But Reid, causes headaches to the opposition and will get a nice defender away from Cloke.
Im sorry, as good as Reid is back, which he is, we can cover that with Marsh. The Berg can support as well taking on the maxy roll. So Brown, Marsh, scharenberg as the foundations works i think.
Reid can be of such great value to us forward.

But at this stage besides Reid we struggle to give Cloke the foil he requires.

To me a monster Cloke delivers us finals but the standard Cloke with a dominant Reid down back delivers us what we have seen in recent times.

In time, Moore will own the forward area, but now he can be a 3rd tall pest to the opposition. Run around, bea real nuisance to our opponents. Without the burden of carrying the key position. For now.

We know we will be going very nicely indeed when White is playing good football in the VFL.
And then he can solidify his depth spot on our list.

 

[mike123]

I think what people are missing is with Reid going forward, he provides by far the best option of support for Cloke.
To have Cloke return as dominant monster Cloke he needs a really good foil.
Otherwise he will get various multiple defenders at once nullifying him etc.

But Reid, causes headaches to the opposition and will get a nice defender away from Cloke.
Im sorry, as good as Reid is back, which he is, we can cover that with Marsh. The Berg can support as well taking on the maxy roll. So Brown, Marsh, scharenberg as the foundations works i think.
Reid can be of such great value to us forward.

But at this stage besides Reid we struggle to give Cloke the foil he requires.

To me a monster Cloke delivers us finals but the standard Cloke with a dominant Reid down back delivers us what we have seen in recent times.

In time, Moore will own the forward area, but now he can be a 3rd tall pest to the opposition. Run around, bea real nuisance to our opponents. Without the burden of carrying the key position. For now.

We know we will be going very nicely indeed when White is playing good football in the VFL.
And then he can solidify his depth spot on our list.

So much this

 

[stars alive]

Knightmare Brett Anderson has done a phantom draft and has us landing Alex Morgan, Reuben William and Jack Firns Thoughts on those three players ?

brett anderson doesnt rate some really good players like nick okearney

 

[Jelly Bean]

But Playing Reid Forward takes away his biggest weapon and that is his Elite Field Kick

No it doesn't Dave, it just moves his elite field kick up the ground....

IF he gets it at half forward, start to picture him swinging around onto that left foot and drilling our leading forwards on the chest.... that is what we've been missing for a long while.

 

[Jelly Bean]

I have the same tall combination as Knightmare - Brown and Marsh as our key backs, and Cloke and Reid as our key talls. I swing between having Moore or White as the third tall / relief ruck - White has better output in the role currently, but Moore needs the development more and will become more accomplished in that role over time. I should note I am pleased most people seem to understand now that Witts and Grundy as a combination doesn't work.

 

[Ketchup]

I think Reid's forward play is over rated by alot of people. Capable swingman yes, I don't think he has it in him to perform in the forward line at a high level consistently

 

[Pendles!]

I think Reid's forward play is over rated by alot of people. Capable swingman yes, I don't think he has it in him to perform in the forward line at a high level consistently

His leading patterns are very poor imo. Too often leads to spots where the kick must thread the eye of the needle which makes it hard for our midfielders.

We need the stability down back and as our best defender he should play down there.

 

[ClaytonM]

Marsh is listed at 1.93 cm. These days that is at the margins of being big enough to play KPD. Not sure he can play KPD unless opposition forwards are relatively short.

 

[TheWing121]

Marsh is listed at 1.93 cm. These days that is at the margins of being big enough to play KPD. Not sure he can play KPD unless opposition forwards are relatively short.

Agreed in saying that I think he becomes a good match up for those shorter more athletic forwards i.e. Darling, Jack Riedwolt, Gunston etc.

 

[DaVe86]

For me, reid is a defender who can swing forward.

His best role is CHB. And he can be elite in this role.

The beauty of him is that he can play forward as a swing option without needing training in the role. It comes pretty natural to him. But i cant recall him ever consistently showing he is a stay at home forward.

His best games were played when he swung forward and caught a mismatch. He hasnt yet proven he can dominate the best defenders.

In any event, im happy for it to remain a horses for courses decision that is based on the opposition and the state of the game.

Its good because moore and marsh are flexible as well and can fill a few holes in most positions. Its good to have a flexible side.

I still think we look best with reid behind the ball.

 

[mike123]

For me, reid is a defender who can swing forward.

His best role is CHB. And he can be elite in this role.

The beauty of him is that he can play forward as a swing option without needing training in the role. It comes pretty natural to him. But i cant recall him ever consistently showing he is a stay at home forward.

His best games were played when he swung forward and caught a mismatch. He hasnt yet proven he can dominate the best defenders.

In any event, im happy for it to remain a horses for courses decision that is based on the opposition and the state of the game.

Its good because moore and marsh are flexible as well and can fill a few holes in most positions. Its good to have a flexible side.

I still think we look best with reid behind the ball.

2013 was some time ago I guess.

 

[Knightmare]

Marsh is listed at 1.93 cm. These days that is at the margins of being big enough to play KPD. Not sure he can play KPD unless opposition forwards are relatively short.

Is Steven May at 190cm too short? Was Ben Rutten at 190cm too short? Luke McPharlin at 192cm? Matthew Scarlett at 192cm? Darren Glass at 192cm? Heath Grundy at 192cm? Michael Hurley at 193cm? Tom McDonald at 194cm?

I still see it as perfectly ok as a key defender to be sub 195cm if you're good enough.

 

[Bard]

Is Steven May at 190cm too short? Was Ben Rutten at 190cm too short? Luke McPharlin at 192cm? Matthew Scarlett at 192cm? Darren Glass at 192cm? Heath Grundy at 192cm? Michael Hurley at 193cm? Tom McDonald at 194cm?

I still see it as perfectly ok as a key defender to be sub 195cm if you're good enough.

As long as you can get your arm out to spoil the ball it doesn't really matter about your height. Although playing on a 198+ KPF would be a bit tough but there aren't many good ones.

 

[ClaytonM]

Is Steven May at 190cm too short? Was Ben Rutten at 190cm too short? Luke McPharlin at 192cm? Matthew Scarlett at 192cm? Darren Glass at 192cm? Heath Grundy at 192cm? Michael Hurley at 193cm? Tom McDonald at 194cm?

I still see it as perfectly ok as a key defender to be sub 195cm if you're good enough.

I used the term marginal for good reason. Not saying he can't if good enough, but think his chances of success as a KPD would be significantly enhanced if he was 3 or 4 cm taller.

 

[Kappa]

Is Steven May at 190cm too short? Was Ben Rutten at 190cm too short? Luke McPharlin at 192cm? Matthew Scarlett at 192cm? Darren Glass at 192cm? Heath Grundy at 192cm? Michael Hurley at 193cm? Tom McDonald at 194cm?

I still see it as perfectly ok as a key defender to be sub 195cm if you're good enough.

The young key position gun forwards (eg Moore Danniher Boyd ect) are often around the 200cm mark nowadays, they have gotten taller since the days when Rutten Scarlett Glass ect were in their heydays and thus so much the KPD.

Obviously shorter guys can make it, but if you draft all your KPD as 190-194cm players you're going to be in a lot of trouble when you come up against teams with KPF 6-7cm taller + arm span.

 

[Knightmare]

As long as you can get your arm out to spoil the ball it doesn't really matter about your height. Although playing on a 198+ KPF would be a bit tough but there aren't many good ones.

It depends on the player. Darren Glass or Ben Rutten. Those guys are strong enough to consistently beat Kurt Tippett at 203cm or any comparably big and/or tall forwards just because of their sheer 1v1 strength making any height/reach advantage null.

Marsh isn't that. But he isn't likely to be used as the deepest key defender either with Brown that most suitable current player for that role anyway.

 

[Bard]

It depends on the player. Darren Glass or Ben Rutten. Those guys are strong enough to consistently beat Kurt Tippett at 203cm or any comparably big and/or tall forwards just because of their sheer 1v1 strength making any height/reach advantage null.

Marsh isn't that. But he isn't likely to be used as the deepest key defender either with Brown that most suitable current player for that role anyway.

Yep I agree. I haven't seen enough of Marsh to really judge whether I think he's best as a KPD or a taller Toovey/Goldsack, but hopefully he can build that core strength that would be required in order to play him as a KPD consistently at senior level so that we have the option to use him wherever we see fit.

Best case scenario however we still need another player who is a capable KPD playing seniors along with Marsh and Brown. I personally believe we should aim for Brown, CHB, + someone who can play relatively well on all sizes for added flexibility to our defence (not sure if Marsh falls into the 2nd or 3rd category). If we achieve this it means we can always free up whoever we feel is best suited to playing the loose man, rather than having the opposition dictate the target.

 

[WalterBlaknWhte]

Is Steven May at 190cm too short? Was Ben Rutten at 190cm too short? Luke McPharlin at 192cm? Matthew Scarlett at 192cm? Darren Glass at 192cm? Heath Grundy at 192cm? Michael Hurley at 193cm? Tom McDonald at 194cm?

I still see it as perfectly ok as a key defender to be sub 195cm if you're good enough.

Billy Picken, Craig Kelly, and Jack Regan say hi.

 

[ClaytonM]

Yep I agree. I haven't seen enough of Marsh to really judge whether I think he's best as a KPD or a taller Toovey/Goldsack, but hopefully he can build that core strength that would be required in order to play him as a KPD consistently at senior level so that we have the option to use him wherever we see fit.

Best case scenario however we still need another player who is a capable KPD playing seniors along with Marsh and Brown. I personally believe we should aim for Brown, CHB, + someone who can play relatively well on all sizes for added flexibility to our defence (not sure if Marsh falls into the 2nd or 3rd category). If we achieve this it means we can always free up whoever we feel is best suited to playing the loose man, rather than having the opposition dictate the target.

What we really need is someone of Keefe's height. Oh well

 

[Bard]

Billy Picken, Craig Kelly, and Jack Regan say hi.

That's going a bit too far back, the height of your average KPF has grown tremendously since even the mid-90s. It's still increasing now as Kappa has alluded to, but I'm a bit sceptical about players over 200cm actually being co-ordinated and athletic enough to really become a lasting trend.

 

[Jonno94]

Is Steven May at 190cm too short? Was Ben Rutten at 190cm too short? Luke McPharlin at 192cm? Matthew Scarlett at 192cm? Darren Glass at 192cm? Heath Grundy at 192cm? Michael Hurley at 193cm? Tom McDonald at 194cm?

I still see it as perfectly ok as a key defender to be sub 195cm if you're good enough.

Alex Rance who's the best CHB in the game at 194cm.

Marsh will have a very good career with us.

 

[Bard]

What we really need is someone of Keefe's height. Oh well

Yeah.. I think defenders can get away with giving up 5+ cm in height. 193cm is probably too short for Marsh to reliably play on someone like Moore/Tippett/Daniher but someone who is 195/196cm (ie. Reid/Brown) could easily do so. Furthermore at 196cm it's a lot easier to build up that core strength to be not as easily pushed off the mark, as well as a high probability of being more coordinated.