11 consecutive games at the MCG in the run into finals seemed to coincide with it all "clicking into place" for you. Funny that. Collingwood 2010/2011 remains the most overrated side of the modern era. Ridiculous the way the media fawned over them.
Collingwood dynasty circa 2010
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11 consecutive games at the MCG in the run into finals seemed to coincide with it all "clicking into place" for you. Funny that. Collingwood 2010/2011 remains the most overrated side of the modern era. Ridiculous the way the media fawned over them.
I guess the big question is how long is left in Cloke and Swan in terms of being at the top of the AFL.
Many people tend to forget that before the premiership in 2010 we'd appeared in 4 finals series straight and featured in 2 prelim finals. After the 2013 season we'd featured in 8 finals series (the best consecutive record of any club at the time) and the middle 6 of those years included 5 preliminary final appearances in 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012. It's easy to look at these things retrospectively but to continue a similar sort of pattern would be pretty incredible really. I know premierships are the ultimate but I believe that prelim finals appearances can be a useful measure of performance. For comparisons sake:
Geelong with 6 prelim appearances over 7 years (2007-2013, exc 2012)
Hawthorn are currently sitting on 4 straight prelim finals appearances (2011-2014), 5 in 7 years including 2008.
Sydney are currently sitting on 3 prelim appearances in a row
St.Kilda went 5 prelim finals in 7 years (2004-5, 2008-10)
Western Bulldogs went 3 in a row from 2008-10.
Obviously premierships are the ultimate but Collingwood's record of 5 prelims over 6 years is pretty comparable to the likes of Geelong and Hawthorn. Those two clubs are ahead but if Geelong starts to decline then it makes Collingwood's record at least comparable but it would take a brave man to pick Hawthorn to stop at least making prelims for 2015 and beyond while Sydney are only just beginning (hard to compare to them at the moment). Comparing Collingwood to the likes of St.Kilda and WB (not to mention sides like West Coast, Adelaide, North, Fremantle and even Port who have bobbed up now and then) and you would say that it was still a decent effort. To have a record of 6/7 prelim final appearances in 8 years (from 2007-2014) would have been pretty impressive in retrospect. It'll probably be easier to evaluate this in a few years time when Hawthorn and Geelong are firmly out of top 4 contention.
Basically, I'd say our record is comparable to Geelong and Hawthorns at the moment (while still being that rung below) but if Geelong and Hawthorn go on with it then calls of Collingwood missing out on a dynasty may be justified.
Geelong with 6 prelim appearances over 7 years (2007-2013, exc 2012)
Hawthorn are currently sitting on 4 straight prelim finals appearances (2011-2014), 5 in 7 years including 2008.
Sydney are currently sitting on 3 prelim appearances in a row
St.Kilda went 5 prelim finals in 7 years (2004-5, 2008-10)
Western Bulldogs went 3 in a row from 2008-10.
Obviously premierships are the ultimate but Collingwood's record of 5 prelims over 6 years is pretty comparable to the likes of Geelong and Hawthorn. Those two clubs are ahead but if Geelong starts to decline then it makes Collingwood's record at least comparable but it would take a brave man to pick Hawthorn to stop at least making prelims for 2015 and beyond while Sydney are only just beginning (hard to compare to them at the moment). Comparing Collingwood to the likes of St.Kilda and WB (not to mention sides like West Coast, Adelaide, North, Fremantle and even Port who have bobbed up now and then) and you would say that it was still a decent effort. To have a record of 6/7 prelim final appearances in 8 years (from 2007-2014) would have been pretty impressive in retrospect. It'll probably be easier to evaluate this in a few years time when Hawthorn and Geelong are firmly out of top 4 contention.
Basically, I'd say our record is comparable to Geelong and Hawthorns at the moment (while still being that rung below) but if Geelong and Hawthorn go on with it then calls of Collingwood missing out on a dynasty may be justified.
Three premiership and four grand final appearances compared to one premiership and two grand final appearances (don't go trying to claim 2010 as two GFs as Pies fans are accustomed to do now). That's not really comparable at all.
Collingwood at least won a premiership, so their run is certainly above WBD and St. Kilda, but still a long ways off Hawthorn/Geelong.
didaksrightfoot
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um... does Jason Akermanis ring a bell?
Not many Lions fans or players/staff talk respectfully about him.
I'll admit I moved the goalposts from GF/Prems to Prelims (and forgot about Geelong and 04, making their record 7 in 10 years from 2004-13) so taking that into account Collingwood are at least in the same ballpark. I think people are used to counting Geelong and Hawthorn's successes from when they won their first flag. Leading up to their first flags:
Geelong - prelim, semi, no finals, flag
Hawthorn - semi, flag (2008)
Collingwood - elim, prelim, semi, prelim, flag
I think it's safe enough to say that Collingwood were a better performed side before their flag than both Geelong/Hawthorn. All I'm suggesting is that while it took Geelong 3 finals appearances featuring 2 prelims in 4 years to win a flag and Hawthorn 2 finals appearance featuring 1 prelim final to win a flag it took Collingwood 5 finals appearances featuring 3 preliminary finals appearances to finally win a flag and therefore it may not necessarily be fair to just look at Collingwood from 2010 onwards where people look at Geelong from 2007 and Hawthorn from 2008.
As I said, Collingwood are still third but many people in this thread seem to skim over the 2 prelim appearances in 3 years before the flag.
Falchoon
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choked in so much as a 10 goal better team kicked 2 goals in the second half. Choke as a word is debatable, but whatever it was it was very similar to the Saints the year before.
No doubt we had some great performances, but we also had more passengers.
Schraderbrau
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You might be correct there. We were a good side in 2010-11 but I feel as if the competition around us was very poor - especially in 2011 it was a very poor season in terms of standard and opposition. There was no way we were as good as out goat % for most of that season. Pies and Geelong were both good in 2011 but it was more the case that everyone else was useless. Geelong 2011 would have gone done by 4-5 goals against Geelong 2006-2009 imo.
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Not sure they really did, certainly not in comparison to the endless praise (still) heaped on Geelong, anyway.
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Yeah it was, Riewoldt got injured too. We probably got enough of the ball but we butchered it everywhere, kind of like we do now.
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Life's too short to convince random posters on an internet board that probably already hate your team.
Art Corvelay
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Except it's not an eternal question at all - Mick already knew he was out in 2009. The only revisionism is from people who pretend like we decided to sack Malthouse after he won 2010. If he didn't get the tap on the shoulder in 2009, I'm willing to bet we would have never recruited Ball or Jolly - the 2 types of players Collingwood supporters had been crying out for, for years.
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Why are these threads so consistent in their appearance? All they are good for is highlighting posters who don't understand how football works in reality.
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Yes fine! but then mid-2011, when that team was flying, nothing should have been allowed to derail it. I don't blame McGuire 100% btw, I think Bucks should have had his hand up to say 'lets leave this succession business till next year, and ride this wave'.
But they pushed ahead, it blew up in the media a few rounds before the finals, the players revolted according to Malthouse, there was the bizarre final round belting, the rest is history.
I said I wouldn't do this anymore.
Gone Critical
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Don't think so. We don't match up to Geelong or Hawks of this era but we were good. I have watched Collingwood since the late 1960s and the 2010-11 team was clearly the best we have put on the park since then. Not one of the great sides of the AFL but probably the best side Collingwood has had since the 1930s. You are under rating how hard it is to win flags.
Yeah a flag, two minor premierships, and 3 losses (to the same team and premiers) in 2011.
I suppose St.Kilda were overrated in 2009-10 too?
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Pies got a flag bw the Cats and Hawks eras. Did well but its a footnote in history
Correct, while Geelong could conceivably end up a footnote in history if the Hawks go on to do the 3peat and more
In 2010 Collingwood had the most 200 game players on its list by the seasons end out of all 16 teams.
Lockyer, O'Bree, Fraser, Jolly, L. Brown, Davis and Ben Johnson.
Not all of them played in the Grand Final but most played 15+ games that year - all of them to a player where on the decline and the club was planning for their replacement in the next year or 2. There is a lot of experience and character quality in that group that Collingwood needed to start replacing once the ink was drying on the 2010 scorecard. In the group below these guys there was really only maxwell and ball (new to the club) who possessed the necessary leadership skills and character. The Collingwood list of 2010 was not in the requisite shape for a dynasty
In 2007 Geelong had ZERO 200 gamers on their list at the seasons start (Milburn played his 200th during the season). Geelong had less 200 gamers than ANY OTHER team in the comp that year - an amazing statistic and the reason why they were able to embark on a dynasty - any list changes moving forward were generally strategic and could be covered (Ablett aside)
In 2008 Hawthorn had only 2 x 200 gamers on their list (Crawford and Dew). This was the equal least with Carlton in 2008. Another remarkable feat which also enabled them to keep a talented list together for extended periods resulting in a dynasty
Going back to 2004 I haven't found a premiership list (other than Cats 07 and Hawks 08) whereby the premier wasn't top 3 in the comp for 200 gamers.
If we are using Geelong 07 and Hawks 08 to define a dynasty then Collingwoods list in 2010 was never going to allow it
Lockyer, O'Bree, Fraser, Jolly, L. Brown, Davis and Ben Johnson.
Not all of them played in the Grand Final but most played 15+ games that year - all of them to a player where on the decline and the club was planning for their replacement in the next year or 2. There is a lot of experience and character quality in that group that Collingwood needed to start replacing once the ink was drying on the 2010 scorecard. In the group below these guys there was really only maxwell and ball (new to the club) who possessed the necessary leadership skills and character. The Collingwood list of 2010 was not in the requisite shape for a dynasty
In 2007 Geelong had ZERO 200 gamers on their list at the seasons start (Milburn played his 200th during the season). Geelong had less 200 gamers than ANY OTHER team in the comp that year - an amazing statistic and the reason why they were able to embark on a dynasty - any list changes moving forward were generally strategic and could be covered (Ablett aside)
In 2008 Hawthorn had only 2 x 200 gamers on their list (Crawford and Dew). This was the equal least with Carlton in 2008. Another remarkable feat which also enabled them to keep a talented list together for extended periods resulting in a dynasty
Going back to 2004 I haven't found a premiership list (other than Cats 07 and Hawks 08) whereby the premier wasn't top 3 in the comp for 200 gamers.
If we are using Geelong 07 and Hawks 08 to define a dynasty then Collingwoods list in 2010 was never going to allow it
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Either way you slice it...this was the potential dominators for 6-8+ years to come in 2010/2011 seasons.
Beams, Pendles, Thomas, Sidebottom, Wellingham, Fasolo, Reid, Cloke, Lumumba, Blair.
Especially when it counted these players were destroying their opponents in that 2 year period.
Since then 1 or more have just vanished season to season or since found new homes or become irrelevant coinciding with Malthouse not coaching after this strong period from that overachieving young crop. They were scary. Only its not a coincidence that they wavered, its got to be a direct factor of bucks taking over and changing things!
It most definitely IS eddies worst decision to pull the trigger as early as it was.
Beams, Pendles, Thomas, Sidebottom, Wellingham, Fasolo, Reid, Cloke, Lumumba, Blair.
Especially when it counted these players were destroying their opponents in that 2 year period.
Since then 1 or more have just vanished season to season or since found new homes or become irrelevant coinciding with Malthouse not coaching after this strong period from that overachieving young crop. They were scary. Only its not a coincidence that they wavered, its got to be a direct factor of bucks taking over and changing things!
It most definitely IS eddies worst decision to pull the trigger as early as it was.
Art Corvelay
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I'll take the flag over perennial prelim final appearances and no recruiting of the players (Jolly/Ball) our list desperately needed. Handover gave Mick the kick up the ass he needed.
tesselate_
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The succession plan that eventuated was different to what Eddie envisioned. Mick agreed to the succession plan in 2009, won a premiership in 2010 and had a change of heart. He then spent the entirety of 2011 of undermining the club and reneged on his commitment. Probably doesn't help that all of our premiership line coaches were snaffled up as opposition head coaches, either. It's not like the succession plan is something unique to Collingwood; it netted Sydney a flag (Roos -> Longmire).
As to why it hasn't 'worked': we're a list in transition. The 2010 gameplan just doesn't cut it in the modern game, and our list from that period was rife with workman-like players who weren't known for their footskills. What are our biggest weaknesses now? You guessed it: we get burned on the outside and we can't hit a target to save our lives. I mean, just watch us try and move the ball out of the defensive 50.
The issues that Mick left weren't just on-field and we're seeing that with this 'exodus'. My take on it is that some players were very comfortable with the laissez-faire approach Mick had to the off-field and threw a tantrum when Buckley came in and upped the professional standards. Personally, I don't care how good they are or what they've achieved; if you won't follow the head coach, best of luck elsewhere. Judging by how the likes of Darren Jolly, Dale Thomas and Dayne Beams have left the club, we're better off for it. We were 8 and 3 this year with about a dozen under 50 gamers. Bucks is implementing a stronger culture and an exciting young list. I'll be backing Bucks in it to do big things.
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