Delisting Players After the ND

the distributer

Norm Smith Medallist
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Nov 5, 2010
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Next year. Which means he has but a few weeks to earn a chance at th elite level, else he plays at a secondary level with no/little chance for promotion.

Why is there a need for list changes post ND anyway (player or club)?


Tough t***ies, he should have thought of that when he rolled up unfit for preseaon training.
 
Jul 12, 2008
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the saints own jason gram highlights the need for this to be allowed. you be a naughty boy while there is still opportunities for your spot on the list to be filled by someone else you shouldn't be too surprised if you get the arse.
 
Sep 10, 2010
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Meh. Just another thing to point out how poor the AFL's club list system is. So many things which are just mickey mouse such as:

1. Compensation for free agents moving away.
Simply put this is the AFL not forcing clubs to stand on their own two feet. It's a prop-up where it is perceived weaker clubs like the Bulldogs will be unable to attract free agents, and will also lose many players to free agency.

Possible solution: No compensation. It's silly. The free agency solution needs to be looked at again anyway.

2. Free agency and trade periods
Admittedly the soccer world has transfer periods, however the major leagues in the world have no draft and no salary cap. The periods were introduced to stop clubs stacking up at the end of season for title runs. Other leagues have a trade and free agent deadline, which usually extends into the season and in no case I can think of is this deadline prior to the league's draft period. The AFL has all three drafts after the trade and free agency periods causing the Winmar problem where a player has limited chance post National draft to get back onto a list.
Possible solution: Trade period extends beyond the draft. Free agency period starts after the draft. Have a deadline for both periods to end somewhere (end of NAB cup?). Hell, have a second period mid season.

3. The really weird draft system.
Most other sporting competitions use the draft system to apply fair access to young talent, usually based on the previous season's finishing order. The AFL somehow has 3 drafts brought on by the absence of a adequate trade and free agency system, and as long as you're 18 years old by 31 Dec of that year, you're eligible to be drafted. As soon as you're drafted, you're also straight onto the main list, and not only that teams must make 3 picks in the first draft, meaning if no-one retires, players need to be dumped.

Possible solution: One draft, with an age eligibility cut off, say at 22. Club's draft rights to player, and then need to sign them. Players older than 22 become free agents. Draft rights expire after 2 years where player may then nominate to be re-drafted if under 22, or become free agent.

4. Inflexible team lists
Again drawing from other major sporting competitions, the AFL has no 'minor-league' or 'squad' contract system whereby players rights are obtained by the major league club, but the player is assigned to an affiliated club in another league to develop. The side effect of this can be seen already in this year's national draft - clubs are unwilling to draft talls because they take ages to develop.

Possible solution: A major list and a minor list, with a total contract cap which is larger than the current list size. Players in major list count towards salary cap. Players moved between lists based on a waiver scheme, with LTI exceptions. This will give the clubs cap flexibility, allow players to develop without being 'list cloggers', allow the current 'mature rookies' to be AFL backups rather than throwing skinny 18 years olds out there to stop Franklin / Ablett / Naitanui et al.

As fans it's annoying that the off season goes for so long, but honestly does it really matter that the clubs' player lists aren't finalised months before the start of the season? As a West Coast fan, once the rookie draft is complete all we hear is 2 months worth of how well Chris Masten is training. That said, allowing the players and clubs flexibility may stop them resorting to the ridiculous posturing and complaining for 1-3 weeks of the year.
 

Tangy Zizzle

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Apr 1, 2010
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I just don't understand why people are so wound up about Winmar's sacking.

In the real world (cos AFL players don't live in the real world ;) ) If you underperform, fail to meet KPI's and generally do not put in the effort you shouldn't be surprised if your employer takes action.
It is not up to your employer to check if you have adequate opportunities for finding other employment before terminating your contract. An employers responsibility is to run a successful business only, not to the job prospects of sacked former employees.

Clubs shouldn't be restricted in when they can terminate contracts.
Players can retire and walk away from their clubs any time they want.

Yeah, it's not the best for Winmar, but he has only himself to blame for being in the position he now finds himself in.
Hell, he should count himself lucky. How many of us would get the sack for under-performing and still be paid out a years wages?
 

mick06

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Aug 21, 2008
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Why? If you can't sort your list out by the ND, then I suggest the club sack their football department for being incompetent.

Why? I didn't know the national draft had an endless array of talent and you were guaranteed to get the players that you were after. There are two drafts following the national draft, why should you have your list finalised? So i take it you don't expect your club to take anybody in the pre season or rookie drafts?
 

Pevers-Legend

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 28, 2002
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Why? I didn't know the national draft had an endless array of talent and you were guaranteed to get the players that you were after. There are two drafts following the national draft, why should you have your list finalised? So i take it you don't expect your club to take anybody in the pre season or rookie drafts?
????

We finalised our list in terms of delisting prior to the ND. We chose to use 1 pick in the PSD. We will take 1 in the rookie draft.

WTF does that have to do with finalising your delistings before the ND?
 

mysainters

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There's certainly genuine contention (not saying it's true, but it's what his corner are alleging) on whether St K had communicated his situation with him or not.
http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl...-axe-nick-winmar/story-e6frf3e3-1226525630368
Connors said they had given no warning.
Prendergast (AFLPA guy) says no grounds to terminate.
Pelchen only said they only advised him "late last week" (presumably Friday/night).

I'm not saying it's a hanging offence on St Kilda's part, just that it appears harsh. Be interested in what the PA find out, with their challenge.

Though the PA is not challenging St Kilda are they?

They are challenging the AFL that this loophole should not exist?

Not sure will find out much more than the he said/he said that exists now.

If the kid is a genuine talent, SOS should know about it as he would of coached him while at the Saints given he played off half back. He's moving up to Sydney, if he works harder next time....
 

mysainters

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There's certainly genuine contention (not saying it's true, but it's what his corner are alleging) on whether St K had communicated his situation with him or not.
http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl...-axe-nick-winmar/story-e6frf3e3-1226525630368
Connors said they had given no warning.
Prendergast (AFLPA guy) says no grounds to terminate.
Pelchen only said they only advised him "late last week" (presumably Friday/night).

I'm not saying it's a hanging offence on St Kilda's part, just that it appears harsh. Be interested in what the PA find out, with their challenge.

http://www.saints.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/5315/newsid/151872/default.aspx

“From the Club’s position we’d like to make it clear that this wasn’t a huge shock and a spur of the moment decision."

“Discussions have been had with Nick about his condition and application just before the halfway mark of the season."

“Subsequent to his return his condition was still poor and that was reflected in the way he was training.”

While List Lodgement Two had occurred prior to the National Draft, Bains explained, “At that point in time we were still willing to give him opportunity to show us that he had the application and desire, particularly given the chat that took place upon his return."

Winmar is eligible to be selected as a Free Agent by another AFL club between the 30th November and the 4th December and can also nominate for both the AFL Pre-Season and Rookie Drafts on the 11th December 2012.
 

Sunshine Saint

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http://www.saints.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/5315/newsid/151872/default.aspx

“From the Club’s position we’d like to make it clear that this wasn’t a huge shock and a spur of the moment decision."

“Discussions have been had with Nick about his condition and application just before the halfway mark of the season."

“Subsequent to his return his condition was still poor and that was reflected in the way he was training.”

While List Lodgement Two had occurred prior to the National Draft, Bains explained, “At that point in time we were still willing to give him opportunity to show us that he had the application and desire, particularly given the chat that took place upon his return."

Winmar is eligible to be selected as a Free Agent by another AFL club between the 30th November and the 4th December and can also nominate for both the AFL Pre-Season and Rookie Drafts on the 11th December 2012.


And once again, Connors has been shown to be very loose with the truth. Winmar has been advised numerous times and had clear expectations of what was needed.

Even up to quite recently St Kilda have tried to work with him to have a fourth season at Saints. Unfortunately through his actions, he has chosen to exclude himself.

Will all the Saints haters that have posted on BF their outrage, now post apologies to the club?
 
Winmar is eligible to be selected as a Free Agent by another AFL club between the 30th November and the 4th December and can also nominate for both the AFL Pre-Season and Rookie Drafts on the 11th December 2012.

This is where it's a little unfair. Yes he is now a FA, but by now other clubs have virtually finalised what they intend to do in PSD and rookie drafts.
 

blaze036

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Apr 27, 2011
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This isn't just footy, its a guys job and livelyhood that's been dealt an harsh and unfair blow. Really poor by St.Kilda, won't help them getting new people to the club through FA when players are treated like this
 

Atomboy

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Jan 22, 2007
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This isn't just footy, its a guys job and livelyhood that's been dealt an harsh and unfair blow. Really poor by St.Kilda, won't help them getting new people to the club through FA when players are treated like this

Actually, just like every other person your job and livelihood depend on talent and commitment.

Unlike Winmar though, I'm not going to get a year's salary when I get the axe when I can't be farked working anymore.
 

blaze036

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Actually, just like every other person your job and livelihood depend on talent and commitment.

Unlike Winmar though, I'm not going to get a year's salary when I get the axe when I can't be farked working anymore.

I understand he may of dropped the ball in terms of commitment, but to cut him AFTER his best chance of continuing his career just seems like a very very cruel thing to do.
 
Jan 7, 2011
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This is where it's a little unfair. Yes he is now a FA, but by now other clubs have virtually finalised what they intend to do in PSD and rookie drafts.
If another club desperately wanted him though, they could likewise delist someone off their list now, to make space for him. They won't though, because he hasn't shown the willingness to do anywhere near enough to be successful in AFL footy and was lucky to be getting games in the VFL seniors at times this year.

http://www.saints.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/5315/newsid/151872/default.aspx

“From the Club’s position we’d like to make it clear that this wasn’t a huge shock and a spur of the moment decision."

“Discussions have been had with Nick about his condition and application just before the halfway mark of the season."

“Subsequent to his return his condition was still poor and that was reflected in the way he was training.”

While List Lodgement Two had occurred prior to the National Draft, Bains explained, “At that point in time we were still willing to give him opportunity to show us that he had the application and desire, particularly given the chat that took place upon his return."

Winmar is eligible to be selected as a Free Agent by another AFL club between the 30th November and the 4th December and can also nominate for both the AFL Pre-Season and Rookie Drafts on the 11th December 2012.

With all that being the case (and that is what we had heard prior to his delisting, so this just confirms what we had heard) I am OK with the club delisting him, particularly given the fact he is eligible to be drafted in either of the remaining drafts, or be picked up by any club as a "free agent".

It sounds like we gave him opportunity after opportunity to pull his finger out and he just kept on thumbing his nose at the club and refusing to do the necessary work.

Sounds like the perfect situation for him next year though. He gets to be paid very well for doing not much. :D
 

Sunshine Saint

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I understand he may of dropped the ball in terms of commitment, but to cut him AFTER his best chance of continuing his career just seems like a very very cruel thing to do.


The issue that you and most others on here have is not that he has been delisted, but the timing of it. It is worth pointing out that in the end, the timing was as a result of Winmar's actions. Saints since mid year had outlined his problems and what he needed to do to rectify these.

Before the end of season break, he once again had clear expectations of what was required of him, as to how he was to come back from his time off. Saints have given him multiple chances and wanted to do all possible, to keep him on the list.

But this should be noted, that the timing, was as a result of Winmar's poor motivation and adherence to what was required of him. The club didn't terminate him earlier, as they were trying to give him a further chance. They took the action now, as the situation was untenable. Winmar still has options. He can still be drafted and if not, he is paid for 2013.
 
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