Difference between Islam and Extremism

[PowerbaII]

Very good article. It's time liberal minded people grew a pair and slammed the Islamic State for being what they are. Idiots like Obama, too terrified to criticise them for their radical Muslim beliefs, have no trouble criticising Christians for the Crusades, Inquisition, and yes, even slavery.

http://m.theaustralian.com.au/opini...to-islamic-state/story-fnhulnf5-1227232773473

 

[GoldenHodge]

Very good article. It's time liberal minded people grew a pair and slammed the Islamic State for being what they are. Idiots like Obama, too terrified to criticise them for their radical Muslim beliefs, have no trouble criticising Christians for the Crusades, Inquisition, and yes, even slavery.

The thing is the Islamic State want to be known as the Muslim authority. They want a religious war and probably think they're the definitive representation of Muslim culture. I believe he has said he believes the Islamic State has a perverted idea of Islam but hasn't acknowledged them as Muslims or true Muslims. Being one of the biggest influences in the western world, I think he's trying to frame it as a war against terrorist groups rather than a war on a religion, I assume to try and avoid further polarising people. Though I'm pretty sure many liberals (maybe most liberals) acknowledge Islamic State as Muslim Fundamentalists/Radicals.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Very good article. It's time liberal minded people grew a pair and slammed the Islamic State for being what they are. Idiots like Obama, too terrified to criticise them for their radical Muslim beliefs, have no trouble criticising Christians for the Crusades, Inquisition, and yes, even slavery.

http://m.theaustralian.com.au/opini...to-islamic-state/story-fnhulnf5-1227232773473

That article must be so good, we have to pay for it.

 

[alexkidd16]

Oranges and mandarins.

 

[Jiska]

The thing is the Islamic State want to be known as the Muslim authority. They want a religious war and probably think they're the definitive representation of Muslim culture. I believe he has said he believes the Islamic State has a perverted idea of Islam but hasn't acknowledged them as Muslims or true Muslims. Being one of the biggest influences in the western world, I think he's trying to frame it as a war against terrorist groups rather than a war on a religion, I assume to try and avoid further polarising people. Though I'm pretty sure many liberals (maybe most liberals) acknowledge Islamic State as Muslim Fundamentalists/Radicals.

In a similar vain to the IRA, the Ku Klux Klan, the Army of God, the Nazi's etc.

I find it amusing (tounge in cheek), that history condemns Hitler whilst a large majority of practice his preachings/bigotry/superiority and try's to justify their fear.

Interesting reads:

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013...ttacks-on-u-s-soil-between-1970-and-2012.html
http://theweek.com/articles/534105/muslims-blamed-moderate-christians-terroristattacks
http://www.ifyouonlynews.com/religion/christian-terror-12-examples-of-terrorism-from-the-right/

But s**t, don't let facts get in the way of right wing propaganda. Hail.

 

[CountryRace]

Very good article. It's time liberal minded people grew a pair and slammed the Islamic State for being what they are. Idiots like Obama, too terrified to criticise them for their radical Muslim beliefs, have no trouble criticising Christians for the Crusades, Inquisition, and yes, even slavery.

http://m.theaustralian.com.au/opini...to-islamic-state/story-fnhulnf5-1227232773473

Lol
can you find anyone saying the are top blokes

 

[MrCharisma]

Very good article. It's time liberal minded people grew a pair and slammed the Islamic State for being what they are. Idiots like Obama, too terrified to criticise them for their radical Muslim beliefs, have no trouble criticising Christians for the Crusades, Inquisition, and yes, even slavery.

http://m.theaustralian.com.au/opini...to-islamic-state/story-fnhulnf5-1227232773473

Obama is dropping bombs on them as we speak. You must be living under a rock. What have you conservatives done apart from complain about the left?

 

[Malifice]

Obama is dropping bombs on them as we speak. You must be living under a rock. What have you conservatives done apart from complain about the left?

He is only bombing the s**t out of them. And torturing them. And drone strikes.

His words weren't harsh enough apparently. Maybe if he used the words 'shirtfront' and 'death cult' or 'smoke them out' and axis of evil'.

Conservatives seem to love populist rhetoric.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

Can anyone enlighten me as to what ISIS are doing that was not done by, or commanded by Mohammed?

 

[Eastern Rangers]

The thing is the Islamic State want to be known as the Muslim authority. They want a religious war and probably think they're the definitive representation of Muslim culture. I believe he has said he believes the Islamic State has a perverted idea of Islam but hasn't acknowledged them as Muslims or true Muslims. Being one of the biggest influences in the western world, I think he's trying to frame it as a war against terrorist groups rather than a war on a religion, I assume to try and avoid further polarising people. Though I'm pretty sure many liberals (maybe most liberals) acknowledge Islamic State as Muslim Fundamentalists/Radicals.

You need to walk a fine line. Obama is circumnavigating the fundamentally religious aspects of the Sunni Islamist movements. Which as religious and political structures go have no interest with integrating with the rest of the world, western or otherwise. Now there is a large proportion of people that Obama simply can't communicate with and i figure he's speaking to the converted (secular) or conflicted.

If Obama was serious about preventing radicalization he'd tone down his drone strikes.

 

[Malifice]

Can anyone enlighten me as to what ISIS are doing that was not done by, or commanded by Mohammed?

Killing christians and profiting from the drug trade spring to mind.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

Killing christians and profiting from the drug trade spring to mind.

I will grant you the drug trade, can also add in oil trade and using mobiles to film atrocities but Mohammed didn't kill Christians? Wut?

And, lets be honest, if all they did was profit from the drug trade, they really wouldn't be that bad a bunch, relatively speaking.

 

[Malifice]

I will grant you the drug trade, can also add in oil trade and using mobiles to film atrocities but Mohammed didn't kill Christians? Wut?

Yeah. Aside from a one off military engagement with the Byzantines, Mohammed didnt actively seek out or kill Christians. In fact the Quran is pretty clear that Muslims are not allowed to harm 'people of the book' (Christians) as long as they pay the jizya (special tax).

What Mohammed had to say on the matter:

Here is the link to the Covenant between Muhammad and the Najrans: [1] [7](located under the heading Covenant with the Christians of Najran).

And here are the terms in which the covenant was to be kept: In the name of God, the Merciful, the Beneficent. This is what Muhammad, the Prophet and God’s Messenger, has written down for the people of Najran when he has the authority over all their fruits, gold, silver, crops and slaves. He has benevolently left them all that in return for 2,000 hullas every year, 1,000 to be given in the month of Rajab and 1,000 in the month of Safar. Each hulla is equal to one ounce [a measure equal to 4 dirhams]. The Najran are also required to provide accommodation and expenses for my messengers, for up to 20 days. None of my messengers shall be kept in Najran more than one month. They are also required to give, as a loan, 30 shields, 30 horses and 30 camels, in case of any disorder and treachery in Yemen. If anything is lost of the shields, horses or camels they loan to my messenger, it will remain owing by my messenger until it is given back. Najran has the protection of God and the pledges of Muhammad, the Prophet, to protect their lives, faith, land, property, those who are absent and those who are present, and their clan and allies. They need not change anything of their past customs. No right of theirs or their religion shall be altered. No bishop, monk or church guard shall be removed from his position. Whatever they have is theirs, no matter how big or small. They are not held in suspicion and they shall suffer no vengeance killing. They are not required to be mobilized and no army shall trespass on their land. If any of them requests that any right of his should be given to him, justice shall be administered among them. He who takes usury on past loans is not under my protection. No person in Najran is answerable for an injustice committed by another

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_views_on_Christians

Its actually both a crime and a sin to kill a Christian under Sharia law (as long as they pay Jizya), and counter to what Mohammed actively preached. Non 'people of the book' can be forced to convert to Islam (or killed).

Then again, suicide is a mortal sin in Islam, but that doesn't stop them blowing themselves to bits.
.

 

[Number37]

Killing christians and profiting from the drug trade spring to mind.

Driving a wedge between Muslims.
Not having the support of all Muslims.
Being given military hardware by the same people they are fighting.
Having their wounded cared for by Israel.
1400 years.

 

[WA ROO]

In fact the Quran is pretty clear that Muslims are not allowed to harm 'people of the book' (Christians) as long as they pay the jizya (special tax).



Its actually both a crime and a sin to kill a Christian under Sharia law (as long as they pay Jizya), and counter to what Mohammed actively preached. Non 'people of the book' can be forced to convert to Islam (or killed).

So it is okay to kill Christians if the don't pay jizya?

 

[Malifice]

So it is okay to kill Christians if the don't pay jizya?

Yep. Seems so. The Quran only expressly prohibits the killing of other Muslims.

Non believers are fair game apparently.

 

[Number37]

Yep. Seems so. The Quran only expressly prohibits the killing of other Muslims.

Non believers are fair game apparently.

The Quran expressly forbids the killing of all people.
That changes in wartime, where Muslims are still not permitted to kill women, children, the elderly and the sick but are permitted to kill others if they
don't repent.
A person may repent by accepting Islam or by paying money to help the poor.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

They are permitted to kill others if they don't repent. A person may repent by accepting Islam or by paying money.

Well, that's okay then

 

[Richard Pryor]

Yep. Seems so. The Quran only expressly prohibits the killing of other Muslims.

Non believers are fair game apparently.

I'd imagine there would be incentive to prefer conversion though?

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

What does the Hadith say? I guess n37 will squib that, as always, so here we go:

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." Sahis al-Bukhari 9:83:17

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him' Sahis al-Bukhari 4:52:260

'Abdullah (b. Mas'ūd) reported Allah's Messenger as saying: It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim who bears testimony (to the fact) that there is no god but Allah, and I am the Messenger of Allah, but in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for a life, and the deserter of his Din (Islam), abandoning the community." Sahih Muslim 16:415

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

So yeah,

Quran only expressly prohibits the killing of other Muslims.

unless they are apostates, commit 'illegal sexual intercourse' (we aren't talking rape here) or kill someone.

 

[Richard Pryor]

So yeah, unless they are apostates, commit 'illegal sexual intercourse' (we aren't talking rape here) or kill someone.

Safe to assume 'illegal sexual intercourse' is a more literal translation of the equivalent of 'sodomy'?

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

I'd imagine there would be incentive to prefer conversion though?

Nice choice there, convert to Islam, pay a ransom or die.

 

[Richard Pryor]

Nice choice there, convert to Islam, pay a ransom or die.

I wonder how this worked in the old days. It's not like the devotion of a man converted on pain of death is going to be that high. It's an amusing thought, Islamic armies releasing their prisoners after they convert and wondering why they're then all just running away.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

Safe to assume 'illegal sexual intercourse' is a more literal translation of the equivalent of 'sodomy'?

Sex before marriage, sex outside of marriage, homosexuality etc (I understand that married or unmarried Muslim male are sex outside marriage with a non-Muslim slave, with or without her consent).